Original Expansion Plans Discussion

[TMC]

13 minutes ago, Mtatransit said:

Don;t you think we should serve the dense areas of Queens and Brooklyn before we even think about New Jersey? Who doesn't even pay most of the MTA tax? Other than the areas served by PATH, the sprawl is even worse than Queens and Brooklyn, so I don't see why you would think NJ would be better because a new tunnel will cost >10 billion dollars

Ignoring cost, because discussing anything in the context of inflated NYC construction costs is useless, no, I would prioritize them equally. 
 

If you’re worried about sprawl, that’s not an issue in Hudson and Essex Counties, they’re functionally the 6th and 7th boroughs, being very urbanized (Hoboken, Jersey City, Newark, Bayonne, West New York, Edgewater, etc.). Fort Lee, in Bergen County, is also rapidly developing with many high-rise apartments. I do propose a line along NJ-4, which links into my 3rd Avenue Trunk via the GWB, where TOD is required, but that’s a lower priority than getting to Fort Lee. Bergenline Avenue has bus and jitney service that run about every 30 seconds combined, it needs serious relief. It’d be a very high priority on my list. They should be built in conjunction, or first before lines in Eastern Queens, because the areas served are actually denser, and are not located along regional rail corridors, like parts of Eastern Queens are. Utica and Nostrand in Brooklyn are higher priority than extensions to New Jersey. 
 

Also, who cares if they don’t pay the tax? Northern New Jersey is part of the NYC Metro, and the areas in question are functionally part of NYC. You’re just normalizing agency and political turf wars, as if they should exist forever, or are going to exist forever (Hopefully they don’t).

 

As I said before, any new project should be looked at through the lens of non-inflated costs, because we know the MTA does this on purpose to only do the things it wants. They could sandbag Utica up to $20B, maybe a Hillside extension could be quoted as $30B? It’s not a real variable, it’s just the MTA f**king around, so it’s a non-issue. 

[Trainmaster5]

If it’s not a PANY&NJ project any proposal concerning the GWB and the  is automatically pure fantasy besides being illegal. PATH has a legal right to cross the Hudson River because of the interstate covenant that governs the parent Port Authority which the railroad preceded. The  does not have that right. My take. Carry on.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Trainmaster5
Context

[Lawrence St]

9 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

If it’s not a PANY&NJ project any proposal concerning the GWB and the  is automatically pure fantasy besides being illegal. PATH has a legal right to cross the Hudson River because of the interstate covenant that governs the parent Port Authority which the railroad preceded. The  does not have that right. My take. Carry on.

Then how were they gonna send the  to Fort Lee over the GWB?

[Lex]

10 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Then how were they gonna send the  to Fort Lee over the GWB?

Who proposed that in the first place?

[Lawrence St]

8 minutes ago, Lex said:

Who proposed that in the first place?

Clearly someone within the PANY, because the lower level was built for train traffic not auto traffic.

[Trainmaster5]

27 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Then how were they gonna send the  to Fort Lee over the GWB?

That’s why there was never any connection built across the bridge into NJ. The IND was a NY based creation that had no authority to build on the bridge and, until the tradeoff of the building of the WTC and the PA having to absorb the PATH system, the Port Authority wanted nothing to do with any rail project. I liken it to a pipe dream like South 4th Street in Brooklyn. Carry on.

[TMC]

50 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

If it’s not a PANY&NJ project any proposal concerning the GWB and the  is automatically pure fantasy besides being illegal. PATH has a legal right to cross the Hudson River because of the interstate covenant that governs the parent Port Authority which the railroad preceded. The  does not have that right. My take. Carry on.

The PANYNJ is an institution that needs to be dissolved and destroyed entirely. My take. Carry on.

[Trainmaster5]

21 hours ago, TMC said:

The PANYNJ is an institution that needs to be dissolved and destroyed entirely. My take. Carry on.

Would you care to elaborate on why you feel this way ?

[TMC]

7 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Would you care to elaborate on why you feel this way ?

It’s a useless agency that gets in the way of useful projects. They only aggravate turf wars between New York and New Jersey, when really, because North Jersey is dependent on NYC to function, they should be working in collaboration. PANYNJ is just spiteful of the MTA and NJT existing, and they really aren’t interested in the business of trans-Hudson travel, just blocking out the other two. 

[Reptile]

Does anyone have any documents relating to Daniel Turner's 1920 plan for the subway? I can't find any scans where the Downtown Manhattan/Downtown Brooklyn areas are legible.