R46 Rollsign Question

[BenTheMiner]

I've noticed some odd rollsigns on the R46 that I'm unfamiliar with. The common Neue Haas Grotesk rollsign normally looks like this (made by Some Train Enthusiast):

However, I have also noticed other possibly older rollsigns. This is how the older R42 Standard rollsign looks like (made by Some Train Enthusiast):

Despite this existing, I have not actually seen this on the R46. I have seen other similar route bullets, but the entire rollsign seems to be different. I have collected these sightings together as an attempt to figure out the rollsigns, and I've concluded that some older rollsigns with weird font choices exist:

Rollsign #1 Possibility: Entire rollsign is in Standard (a bit thin), seen on #5824 and #6142 (I assume #6142 originally had a Neue Haas Grotesk rollsign but for some reason was given a Standard rollsign, this happened with R42s as well)

Rollsign #2 Possibility: This is a mix of the older and newer R42 rollsign, with some in Neue Haas Grotesk (F, G, N, <W>, Q, NIS) and some in Standard (R, <R>). It also includes JFK, diamond W instead of circle, and diamond brown R. The Q and R seem a bit distorted at some angles for some reason. This is seen on the rollsigns in the list from #5498 to #5592 and #5660 to #5770.

Rollsign #3 Possibility: Standard (F), Neue Haas Grotesk , Neue Haas Grotesk (R). Possibly the older R42 rollsign, but it has a Neue Haas Grotesk

Rollsign #4 Possibility: One with a weird Standard  as seen in #5622, though the picture may be from a different car.

I have car #5774 marked down for having an old rollsign, but I am unable to find any pictures.

 

If anyone has any information about these R46 rollsigns, please let me know.

Edited February 27, 2021 by BenTheMiner
Website for some reason published post when I didn't publish...

[MHV9218]

So there are at least three rollsigns that the R40-R46 class wears:

The most common rollsign: 13-42-5790. Printed in 2001, is compatible with the R40-R46 class, and is all Helvetica with the exception of an Akzidenz-Grotesk bullet. There's no JFK Express on this roll. Most R46s have that – 5592 in your pictures looks to have that.

The second illustration you've posted is pretty uncommon. Not sure what the code (if any) there is on that. I think that was late 1980s and died out mostly with the R44s and the R42s. I don't actually know of that many cars that still have that rollsign in service. What's weird about that is the the bullets vary – some are Standard, some are Helvetica. I don't know if any R46s have that, but some R42s did until retirement.

Then there's a third version: 13-42-4985. Probably printed in the early 1990s. That has Standard bullets for every route. This includes the Broadway  in Standard, as well as a Standard , standard , and JFK Express. That roll goes JFK-A-C-H-E-F-G-R-S-<W>-N-B-D-Q-D-Q-B-J-S-V-M-<R>-J-Z-L-S and has slightly thinner lettering than the R42/R44 Standard roll you posted. I believe NIS is in Standard on that roll. Your picture of 5824 shows that roll, I'm about 90% sure. 

I wish I had better dates or codes for these, but I haven't been able to get my hands on anything besides the 2001 roll. 

6142 has definitely had its rollsign replaced based on those photos. 

Edited February 27, 2021 by MHV9218

[Bill from Maspeth]

The box containing the roll signs on the R46 was also used on the R44/42/40M/40 slant.  Interchangeable  boxes between any of those models. So there may be a sign/bullet or 2 different in the hundreds of boxes manufactured when the cars under went GOH. 

It makes no sense in making updated letter/bullets.  All transit did was save stock from retired cars and if a sign tears all they would do is install a saved box. 

[R32 3838]

one of the R46's had an R110B rollsign as well.

[NYCSubwayFanatic16]

5560 had or still has an older rollsign

[BenTheMiner]

On 2/27/2021 at 1:44 PM, MHV9218 said:

So there are at least three rollsigns that the R40-R46 class wears:

The most common rollsign: 13-42-5790. Printed in 2001, is compatible with the R40-R46 class, and is all Helvetica with the exception of an Akzidenz-Grotesk bullet. There's no JFK Express on this roll. Most R46s have that – 5592 in your pictures looks to have that.

The second illustration you've posted is pretty uncommon. Not sure what the code (if any) there is on that. I think that was late 1980s and died out mostly with the R44s and the R42s. I don't actually know of that many cars that still have that rollsign in service. What's weird about that is the the bullets vary – some are Standard, some are Helvetica. I don't know if any R46s have that, but some R42s did until retirement.

Then there's a third version: 13-42-4985. Probably printed in the early 1990s. That has Standard bullets for every route. This includes the Broadway  in Standard, as well as a Standard , standard , and JFK Express. That roll goes JFK-A-C-H-E-F-G-R-S-<W>-N-B-D-Q-D-Q-B-J-S-V-M-<R>-J-Z-L-S and has slightly thinner lettering than the R42/R44 Standard roll you posted. I believe NIS is in Standard on that roll. Your picture of 5824 shows that roll, I'm about 90% sure. 

I wish I had better dates or codes for these, but I haven't been able to get my hands on anything besides the 2001 roll. 

6142 has definitely had its rollsign replaced based on those photos. 

Sorry for the late response, but thanks for your information. This is currently what I've been able to deduct. The second full rollsign I've posted was the original rollsign for the R40/R42 and still found on some cars. I assume the full thin Standard rollsign was the original for the R44/R46. It seems these original rollsigns also ended up on the other train pair. For the full Standard rollsign, I assume you meant a K for the first J. It seems the route organization is identical to the original rollsign found on the R40/R42. However, there are still some oddities which have been confusing me. Offset F train bullets are an example. However, these may have just been a printing error, I'm not sure though. This is definitely intriguing for me. At this moment, I am currently trying to recreate the order and look of the full Standard rollsign on the R44/R46. Here it is!

[BenTheMiner]

On 3/5/2021 at 2:19 AM, R32 3838 said:

one of the R46's had an R110B rollsign as well.

Sounds interesting. Care to elaborate?

[BenTheMiner]

On 7/20/2021 at 5:26 PM, BenTheMiner said:

Sorry for the late response, but thanks for your information. This is currently what I've been able to deduct. The second full rollsign I've posted was the original rollsign for the R40/R42 and still found on some cars. I assume the full thin Standard rollsign was the original for the R44/R46. It seems these original rollsigns also ended up on the other train pair. For the full Standard rollsign, I assume you meant a K for the first J. It seems the route organization is identical to the original rollsign found on the R40/R42. However, there are still some oddities which have been confusing me. Offset F train bullets are an example. However, these may have just been a printing error, I'm not sure though. This is definitely intriguing for me. At this moment, I am currently trying to recreate the order and look of the full Standard rollsign on the R44/R46. Here it is!

Thankfully, I've been able to confirm this!

Next, I'm investigating an R46 rollsign where the C, S, and V are larger than usual, as well as a large F that is off center. It's possibly the same rollsign as the weird Standard R bullet.

[NYCTRailfanning]

When are the R211's coming?

Yes, they're supposedly having them for revenue service by the summer of 2023, but we know the MTA, the R32's where in service for 65 YEARS?!?!?

[BenTheMiner]

On 5/18/2022 at 11:05 AM, NYCTRailfanning said:

When are the R211's coming?

Yes, they're supposedly having them for revenue service by the summer of 2023, but we know the MTA, the R32's where in service for 65 YEARS?!?!?

...what does this have to do with R46 rollsigns?