The Older rolling stock fleet Questions Curiosity Studies Lessons Forum

[Amiri the subway guy]

The Forum where you are permitted to ask anything about older subway cars

[Amiri the subway guy]

The MTA original  intended to replace the R32’s with the final R160 option orders and send the R44’s to cover for them on the C until the R179’s arrived. this was one of the dumbest ideas the MTA could’ve hatched, it was known in 1992 when the R44’s got GOH’d that their carbon steel bodies had been damaged from acid baths in the early 80’s. Heck body had literally been rotted away underneath the white stripes. The R44s were screwed the moment when they were assigned to run exclusive to the A train and exposed to sea air.  The smart idea would’ve been to to have the R46s be assigned to A train instead while the R44s go to queens blvd instead they would’ve been perfect since the R train short turns during late Nights and it would have been even better for the V train since that was a weekday only route think of the rest time those R44s could’ve have during Weekends and Late Nights or maybe even keep a few more R30’s on property and in service in the early 90’s to stop the R44 body rot from working . By 2009/2010 they were on their deathbeds and the R32’s who were probably built the best out of all the B division SMEE equipment was still on property and able to fill in the R44 voids

As for fleet shortages the B division had been in one sort of fleet shortage since the MTA made the incredibly stupid decision to get rid of every R30’s 1993, when the R160’s arrived that situation was almost rectified but then once again MTA got scrap happy  with the 1960s fleet not paying attention to how awful the R44 structural issues were getting. The R40s R40Ms and R42s bodies were also slowly dying just look how bad they had rotted  The R38s weren’t that bad some parts do need to be replaced but they could still run for another decade so in my opinion only the half the R32s that were too problematic to continue operating and the R38’s that are in the absolute worst condition should still retire while the rest of R38s should’ve been retained to easily run in mixed sets with the remaining half of R32’s. But the MTA would’ve done better keeping anything even a small stockpile of  R40’s and R42’s because once the R44’s were gone and the R179’s were almost a decade away there was most definitely a fleet shortage felt the hardest on the Eastern Division of the BMT.as  for the G the MTA total screwed that over especially with the way G ridership was increasing you could’ve easily increased service and the amount of cars on the G if the MTA didn’t get SMEE Scrap happy. If anything the MTA would’ve been smart to keep 324 R32’s to be fairly split on the A/C G and  J/Z trains and 116 R38’s to mainly operate on the G train but maybe sometimes on the A/C line in the early 2010’s if the MTA hadn’t been as rigid with fleet assignments on the M the ENY Yard fleets could’ve been more fluid, and if the 50 R42’s were still needed even with an influx of 38’s than let it be.

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by Amiri the subway guy

[R32 3838]

8 hours ago, Amiri the subway guy said:

The MTA original  intended to replace the R32’s with the final R160 option orders and send the R44’s to cover for them on the C until the R179’s arrived. this was one of the dumbest ideas the MTA could’ve hatched, it was known in 1992 when the R44’s got GOH’d that their carbon steel bodies had been damaged from acid baths in the early 80’s. Heck body had literally been rotted away underneath the white stripes. The R44s were screwed the moment when they were assigned to run exclusive to the A train and exposed to sea air.  The smart idea would’ve been to to have the R46s be assigned to A train instead while the R44s go to queens blvd instead they would’ve been perfect since the R train short turns during late Nights and it would have been even better for the V train since that was a weekday only route think of the rest time those R44s could’ve have during Weekends and Late Nights or maybe even keep a few more R30’s on property and in service in the early 90’s to stop the R44 body rot from working . By 2009/2010 they were on their deathbeds and the R32’s who were probably built the best out of all the B division SMEE equipment was still on property and able to fill in the R44 voids

As for fleet shortages the B division had been in one sort of fleet shortage since the MTA made the incredibly stupid decision to get rid of every R30’s 1993, when the R160’s arrived that situation was almost rectified but then once again MTA got scrap happy  with the 1960s fleet not paying attention to how awful the R44 structural issues were getting. The R40s R40Ms and R42s bodies were also slowly dying just look how bad they had rotted  The R38s weren’t that bad some parts do need to be replaced but they could still run for another decade so in my opinion only the half the R32s that were too problematic to continue operating and the R38’s that are in the absolute worst condition should still retire while the rest of R38s should’ve been retained to easily run in mixed sets with the remaining half of R32’s. But the MTA would’ve done better keeping anything even a small stockpile of  R40’s and R42’s because once the R44’s were gone and the R179’s were almost a decade away there was most definitely a fleet shortage felt the hardest on the Eastern Division of the BMT.as  for the G the MTA total screwed that over especially with the way G ridership was increasing you could’ve easily increased service and the amount of cars on the G if the MTA didn’t get SMEE Scrap happy. If anything the MTA would’ve been smart to keep 324 R32’s to be fairly split on the A/C G and  J/Z trains and 116 R38’s to mainly operate on the G train but maybe sometimes on the A/C line in the early 2010’s if the MTA hadn’t been as rigid with fleet assignments on the M the ENY Yard fleets could’ve been more fluid, and if the 50 R42’s were still needed even with an influx of 38’s than let it be.

 

 

They knew about the R44 problems while they were reefing subway cars but they didn't care and thought they could fix the issue until late 2009 when they fount out that the body rot was very bad.

 

The Phase II R32s were retired because they didn't want to spend money on modifying them and etc. At the time they thought by getting rid of them after the CI R42s and R32 GE's was a better choice since their mentality was that all the 60 foot SMEEs were going bye bye and these had worst MDBF vs the Phase I R32 which were planned to be the very last fleet to retire in 2010 but we all knew how that went (They will retire 13 years later) . 

 

R38's had bad roofs, R40 slants had bad roofs and rot, R42s were still decent but the CI rebuilds were very unreliable. The R40Ms were very reliable and were in decent shape. 

 

They did this whole retirement thing so ass backwards and it bit them in the ass. in 2009 they were retiring Phase I R32s with the R40/42s which was even dumber because they ended up getting rid of about 60 phase I cars that could have been for the instead of using the R42s which they thought they were going to get rid of in 2010 until the going up 6th ave screwed that up. TA wanted the R42s gone even in 2012 when they finished the R32 SMS. They thought by sending 50 R32s to ENY, They could retire the R42s but that didn't go to plan since they R32s MDBF didn't improve even after the SMS. So the R42s stayed on for 8 more years without a proper SMS. Some cars about 24 got a light SMS for the shuttle back in 2017 while the rest didn't.

 

 

[Amiri the subway guy]

15 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

 

They knew about the R44 problems while they were reefing subway cars but they didn't care and thought they could fix the issue until late 2009 when they fount out that the body rot was very bad.

 

The Phase II R32s were retired because they didn't want to spend money on modifying them and etc. At the time they thought by getting rid of them after the CI R42s and R32 GE's was a better choice since their mentality was that all the 60 foot SMEEs were going bye bye and these had worst MDBF vs the Phase I R32 which were planned to be the very last fleet to retire in 2010 but we all knew how that went (They will retire 13 years later) . 

 

R38's had bad roofs, R40 slants had bad roofs and rot, R42s were still decent but the CI rebuilds were very unreliable. The R40Ms were very reliable and were in decent shape. 

 

They did this whole retirement thing so ass backwards and it bit them in the ass. in 2009 they were retiring Phase I R32s with the R40/42s which was even dumber because they ended up getting rid of about 60 phase I cars that could have been for the instead of using the R42s which they thought they were going to get rid of in 2010 until the going up 6th ave screwed that up. TA wanted the R42s gone even in 2012 when they finished the R32 SMS. They thought by sending 50 R32s to ENY, They could retire the R42s but that didn't go to plan since they R32s MDBF didn't improve even after the SMS. So the R42s stayed on for 8 more years without a proper SMS. Some cars about 24 got a light SMS for the shuttle back in 2017 while the rest didn't.

 

 

Thanks for your answers. I believe the R42s were is even worse state just look at the Rust the R42 had on top. I figured you just needed to replace the R38s roofs. Maybe we could’ve let a few small amounts of R42s but my only problem with this is that it would require a expensive SMS. The fact the MTA Knew the R44s had issues but didn’t do anything about it was beyond UNACCEPTABLE. This is the literally definition of “Get rid of the oldest train fleet no matter what”

[R32 3838]

1 hour ago, Amiri the subway guy said:

Thanks for your answers. I believe the R42s were is even worse state just look at the Rust the R42 had on top. I figured you just needed to replace the R38s roofs. Maybe we could’ve let a few small amounts of R42s but my only problem with this is that it would require a expensive SMS. The fact the MTA Knew the R44s had issues but didn’t do anything about it was beyond UNACCEPTABLE. This is the literally definition of “Get rid of the oldest train fleet no matter what”

At the time they thought they could fix the R44s issues. The R44s had very good MDBF compared to the other fleets. Its when they saw how bad the body rot was down to the frames is when they made the decision to can the whole fleet. If this was done one year earlier, A chunk of R32s and R42s could have been saved. The r160B option order 2 only replaced half of the R44 fleet since the rest of that order replaced the majority of the R42 fleet and R40M fleet. Half of the R179s fulled the void of the R44s that weren't replaced. The only reason why they got away with losing half the r44 fleet without replacement was because of the being cut and replaced with the . The only required about 3-4 extra trains thus the reason why the R42s had to stay. Then the 2nd ave subway opened 7 years later and everything was spread thin since the needed extra trains. The R211 if all options are taken will fill the car shortage issue unless they sideline 70% the R68 fleet if ridership don't pick up. The Base order R211As will full that void the R32s left ( the R211s replacing 110 R32s, The R179s replaced the other half along with the R42s.) and replace a handful of R46s with option 1 killing off the rest of the R46s. Option 2 is for fleet growth.

Edited June 25, 2022 by R32 3838

[Amiri the subway guy]

46 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

At the time they thought they could fix the R44s issues. The R44s had very good MDBF compared to the other fleets. Its when they saw how bad the body rot was down to the frames is when they made the decision to can the whole fleet. If this was done one year earlier, A chunk of R32s and R42s could have been saved. The r160B option order 2 only replaced half of the R44 fleet since the rest of that order replaced the majority of the R42 fleet and R40M fleet. Half of the R179s fulled the void of the R44s that weren't replaced. The only reason why they got away with losing half the r44 fleet without replacement was because of the being cut and replaced with the . The only required about 3-4 extra trains thus the reason why the R42s had to stay. Then the 2nd ave subway opened 7 years later and everything was spread thin since the needed extra trains. The R211 if all options are taken will fill the car shortage issue unless they sideline 70% the R68 fleet if ridership don't pick up. The Base order R211As will full that void the R32s left ( the R211s replacing 110 R32s, The R179s replaced the other half along with the R42s.) and replace a handful of R46s with option 1 killing off the rest of the R46s. Option 2 is for fleet growth.

Now I used to be in support of all NTT after the R211s arrive but I now view R68s as needed to stay until at least 2030. Well after the  was eliminated a whole bunch and I mean like the 45% 50% of the R46s went to the  

[R32 3838]

32 minutes ago, Amiri the subway guy said:

Now I used to be in support of all NTT after the R211s arrive but I now view R68s as needed to stay until at least 2030. Well after the  was eliminated a whole bunch and I mean like the 45% 50% of the R46s went to the  

More like 25%. Jamaica was already losing R46s in 2009 to start replacing the R40 slants after Jamaica sent 200 R32s back to 207th st (1st phase was the R32 for R40M/42 transfer, 2nd Phase was just to replace the R38s which took place within 3 months as R160s started pushing R32s to 207th st yard). Then The R160s started pushing out R46s to pitkin yard to replace the R40 slants between March 2009- June 2009. After that Jamaica started replacing R42s starting in mid june 2009 (Phase I R32s were retired in small batches between June and September 2009)  and the R40Ms.

 

In September One 10 car train of R32s was transferred to coney Island yard for service due to the Brighton construction. The last R40M was removed in August 2009 (4484/85) and the Last R42 was removed from service in December 2009 leaving just 26 R32s at Jamaica which never retired. They stayed in service during rush hours until may of 2010 when they were transferred to 207th for an exchange for R46s 5798-5822 which were 207th at the time.

 

This was when the original plan was to make the R44/R46s, 207th st had 5798-5821 or more (I forgot) and were going to have 6206-6258 and 5798 to 59xx. Then after the cuts whatever R46s that were on the were transferred to pitkin yard to kill off the remaining R44s. R44s stayed in service for an additional 3 months due to the R32s HVAC issues and summer swap between the which resulted in R44 Trains.

Edited June 25, 2022 by R32 3838

[Trainmaster5]

The problem, IMO, was that if all  of those cars were preserved where were they going to be serviced and stored ? Yard space isn’t unlimited. In my division during the introduction of the R62 and R62A equipment the  stored excess cars on the structure between 215 and 238 streets. The  used Concourse yard for storage and the  laid up trains on the structure from south of Pelham Parkway down to Bronx Park East while the new cars were tested and modified by the East 180th barn. IIRC Jamaica yard is at capacity. Don’t they store cars outside the yard limits? The posters seem to be suggesting that multiple types of cars should have been preserved but except for the Coney Island complex who has the room for those excess cars and their associated parts ? I’m just curious. Carry on.

[Calvin]

Were the R44s in Staten Island Railway lock the storm doors in 3 out of 4 cars? Last Friday, when I rode one to St. George Terminal arriving at Clinton, storm doors are opened on the A cab because of a gap problem when being opened. 

[R32 3838]

On 6/26/2022 at 9:12 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

The problem, IMO, was that if all  of those cars were preserved where were they going to be serviced and stored ? Yard space isn’t unlimited. In my division during the introduction of the R62 and R62A equipment the  stored excess cars on the structure between 215 and 238 streets. The  used Concourse yard for storage and the  laid up trains on the structure from south of Pelham Parkway down to Bronx Park East while the new cars were tested and modified by the East 180th barn. IIRC Jamaica yard is at capacity. Don’t they store cars outside the yard limits? The posters seem to be suggesting that multiple types of cars should have been preserved but except for the Coney Island complex who has the room for those excess cars and their associated parts ? I’m just curious. Carry on.

Jamaica stores cars on the express tracks between 75th ave and Union Turnpike Northbound track for the , Southbound Union to 75th for the . Lower Level middle tracks for the between the yard lead and east of 71st.  Between Van Wyck Blvd and Parsons Blvd and east of Parsons to 169th st northbound track for the . 169th st to Parsons Blvd southbound for the .

The holds a total of 60 cars in the back of Jamaica center lay up tracks (30 each track)

The holds cars in the back of 179th st lay up.