Cbtc and a WTF question...

[Deucey]

So I'm reading Wiki and The Atlantic, and both say that CBTC is being installed on top of and in addition to block signaling. Transit systems using CBTC and similar don't use but one signalling system. But MTA is, and it's estimated to take 175 years before operators become highly paid button pushers.

 

WTF are they combining an outdated system with a new one?

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/why-dont-we-know-where-all-the-trains-are/415152/

[Around the Horn]

So I'm reading Wiki and The Atlantic, and both say that CBTC is being installed on top of and in addition to block signaling. Transit systems using CBTC and similar don't use but one signalling system. But MTA is, and it's estimated to take 175 years before operators become highly paid button pushers.

 

WTF are they combining an outdated system with a new one?

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/why-dont-we-know-where-all-the-trains-are/415152/

It's for backup in case CBTC fails.They learned their lesson from the where CBTC is the only signal system for the most part from 8th Av to Broadway Junction. Because of that, if something goes wrong, the whole line is shut down.

[Deucey]

But if it's reliable, CBTC - since Vancouver, LA, Atlanta and BART have never had train collisions using it, why does NY need a hybrid system?

 

Seems like bureaucratic timidity to me.

[Tricknologist]

But if it's reliable, CBTC - since Vancouver, LA, Atlanta and BART have never had train collisions using it, why does NY need a hybrid system?

 

Seems like bureaucratic timidity to me.

 

Collision? It's not being kept to prevent a collision. It's there when CBTC fails to keep things moving. It does occasionally fail on the . Like mentioned already, when it goes down, those  trains go nowhere. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Collision? It's not being kept to prevent a collision. It's there when CBTC fails to keep things moving. It does occasionally fail on the . Like mentioned already, when it goes down, those  trains go nowhere.

 

I don't understand why it fails on the simplest line in the system when it has worked for decades elsewhere??

[elantra06]

But if it's reliable, CBTC - since Vancouver, LA, Atlanta and BART have never had train collisions using it, why does NY need a hybrid system?

 

Seems like bureaucratic timidity to me.

This is where they will fail. Our transit system is unique. Just because it works in other transit systems doesn't mean it will work here. We need to stop comparing our transit system to others and just concentrate on making ours better and efficient. If CBTC fails like it has before on the line would you rather the entire line be shut down or still be able to operate on the backup old block signaling system? You risk a collision without a signaling system in place...smh

I don't understand why it fails on the simplest line in the system when it has worked for decades elsewhere??

Elsewhere doesn't operate 24hrs a day and carry as many riders as we do. That results in more time for maintenance without effecting service...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

This is where they will fail. Our transit system is unique. Just because it works in other transit systems doesn't mean it will work here. We need to stop comparing our transit system to others and just concentrate on making ours better and efficient. If CBTC fails like it has before on the line would you rather the entire line be shut down or still be able to operate on the backup old block signaling system? You risk a collision without a signaling system in place...smh

Oh please. So unique my @ss. So you're trying to tell me that our system is SO complicated that no one can figure out a better technology for it in 2017? That's pathetic. That backup system is from the 1900s for crying out loud and you say that like it's something to be proud of. Given the constant signal issues the old set up has, that is nothing to be gloating about. It's an embarrassment that we are still using such outdated technology and don't even countdown clocks on the lettered lines.

Elsewhere doesn't operate 24hrs a day and carry as many riders as we do. That results in more time for maintenance without effecting service...

They had years to get this system up and running on the and work out the kinks. Seems like an excuse to me. If the can't get the job done, hire people that can. We need to be able to move people and allow more trains on ALL lines, and at the pace this technology is being implemented, we'll all be in walkers or dead before that happens. No wonder the subways are in such deplorable shape.

[elantra06]

Oh please. So unique my @ss. So you're trying to tell me that our system is SO complicated that no one can figure out a better technology for it in 2017? That's pathetic. That backup system is from the 1900s for crying out loud and you say that like it's something to be proud of. Given the constant signal issues the old set up has, that is nothing to be gloating about. It's an embarrassment that we are still using such outdated technology and don't even countdown clocks on the lettered lines.

They had years to get this system up and running on the and work out the kinks. Seems like an excuse to me. If the can't get the job done, hire people that can. We need to be able to move people and allow more trains on ALL lines, and at the pace this technology is being implemented, we'll all be in walkers or dead before that happens. No wonder the subways are in such deplorable shape.

1) There's always Uber lol.

2) You have an option to walk to your destination lol

 

I know how crappy it can be at times so I deal with it and have other options. It won't get any better.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1) There's always Uber lol.

2) You have an option to walk to your destination lol

 

I know how crappy it can be at times so I deal with it and have other options. It won't get any better.

I rarely use the subway, so I'm already one step ahead, but it will be hell for the people that depend on it. I foresee congestion severely worsening here and our economy suffering as people drive in or use Uber or Lyft. You're already seeing it with the new ferry services. I take the express bus and Metro-North in so that set up spares me.

[Deucey]

This is where they will fail. Our transit system is unique. Just because it works in other transit systems doesn't mean it will work here. We need to stop comparing our transit system to others and just concentrate on making ours better and efficient. If CBTC fails like it has before on the line would you rather the entire line be shut down or still be able to operate on the backup old block signaling system? You risk a collision without a signaling system in place...smh

 

Elsewhere doesn't operate 24hrs a day and carry as many riders as we do. That results in more time for maintenance without effecting service...

So the plan is to build a new system on top of an old system that fails daily and hope for the best instead of building the new system with a new version of the legacy system.

 

Any car guy will tell you to never put a new engine on an old transmission because one will f**k up the other. So using a 113 year old signal system that needs custom fabrication to be repaired alongside a new system is just asking for trouble down the road.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

So the plan is to build a new system on top of an old system that fails daily and hope for the best instead of building the new system with a new version of the legacy system.

Any car guy will tell you to never put a new engine on an old transmission because one will f**k up the other. So using a 113 year old signal system that needs custom fabrication to be repaired alongside a new system is just asking for trouble down the road.

Not to mention the stories about how signal work that was supposedly done was falsified...

[Deucey]

Not to mention the stories about how signal work that was supposedly done was falsified...

With NYC's mob history and Tammany Hall graft, I'm not surprised that happens/happened.

 

I mean, how do you build a station and not waterproof it when it's by the shore or below the watertable?

[Around the Horn]

So the plan is to build a new system on top of an old system that fails daily and hope for the best instead of building the new system with a new version of the legacy system.

 

Any car guy will tell you to never put a new engine on an old transmission because one will f**k up the other. So using a 113 year old signal system that needs custom fabrication to be repaired alongside a new system is just asking for trouble down the road.

Uh, no. All lines that will get CBTC in the future, are also getting a brand new block signal system designed to interface with CBTC.

You can see this on 6th Avenue and parts of Queens Blvd where either the new signals have already been cut in and are operational or are still covered up.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

With NYC's mob history and Tammany Hall graft, I'm not surprised that happens/happened.

I mean, how do you build a station and not waterproof it when it's by the shore or below the watertable?

I asked the same question and was told the station was doomed from the start. Well yeah, when you have idiots like Michael Horodniceanu overseeing such projects, anything is possible.

[bobtehpanda]

But if it's reliable, CBTC - since Vancouver, LA, Atlanta and BART have never had train collisions using it, why does NY need a hybrid system?

 

Seems like bureaucratic timidity to me.

 

Those systems were built with CBTC in mind. New York is retrofitting it, and on top of it our infrastructure is in pretty shoddy shape, what with the rats, the leaks, and other shit going on in the tunnels, so the off the shelf systems designed for a much nicer operating environment are prone to failure.

[rbrome]

I agree 100% with Deucey.

 

We've gone 100 years with one signal system and no backup system. That was a fine setup for most of our history, and it's still the standard worldwide on all systems, new and old. 

 

Most would agree that CBTC is more reliable than older types of signal systems. 

 

Therefore it follows that replacing our signals with one simple CBTC system should improve reliability. 

 

Adding a new fixed-block backup system alongside CBTC adds cost and complexity, both now and going forward. More importantly, it slows the rollout of CBTC, which we need sooner rather than later. 

 

We should look to examples like London, which has the same overall issues we have (age and complexity of system), but seems to be managing the transition to CBTC much, much better. 

 

If CBTC is so unreliable on the L, the smart thing to do is look at how to improve the reliability of CBTC (more resilient hardware, backup computer systems, etc.) for future CBTC installations. Fixed-block is old technology; there's a reason we're moving away from that. Installing fixed-block as a backup just reeks of techno-phobia and backwards thinking. 

[bobtehpanda]

We should look to examples like London, which has the same overall issues we have (age and complexity of system), but seems to be managing the transition to CBTC much, much better.

 

This point needs a clarification.

 

Parts of LU are as complex as ours. Coincidentally, those parts (the SSR) are on their third attempt at installing CBTC; the first two failed due to all the complexity, and the third is delayed because of such.

 

CBTC is proven for small, enclosed systems. It is not tested in environments that are complex, and where trains are expected to switch into and out of CBTC.

[RailRunRob]

This point needs a clarification.

 

Parts of LU are as complex as ours. Coincidentally, those parts (the SSR) are on their third attempt at installing CBTC; the first two failed due to all the complexity, and the third is delayed because of such.

 

CBTC is proven for small, enclosed systems. It is not tested in environments that are complex, and where trains are expected to switch into and out of CBTC.

Indeed there's a lot truth there. The Met is pretty complex as well and District on the southern end shares trackage with OG and National Rail service. Just came back from Londontown last week there still working it out.