LIRR Running Speeds

[Joel Up Front]

I swear LIRR operators were known for hauling ass (hence "going at LIRR speeds"), and the last two times I used the LIRR (July and December '09), no train I was on, to and from Jamaica and Penn, ever touched 15 MPH. The weather was fine in July, but that December there was freezing rain all night.

 

The conductor never announced anything, either, and I didn't see any signals..

[Amtrak7]

Except at interlockings, the LIRR uses cab signaling - no wayside signals.

 

For speeds, see this map:

 

http://www.richegreen.com/LIRRTrackMapV3.pdf

 

It is a bit out of date, though.

[Matt91]

Except at interlockings, the LIRR uses cab signaling - no wayside signals.

 

For speeds, see this map:

 

http://www.richegreen.com/LIRRTrackMapV3.pdf

 

It is a bit out of date, though.

 

That is only partially true. West of Jamaica (to Penn and Flatbush / Atlantic Ave) there are wayside (automatic), home (at interlockings), and cab signals. The Oyster Bay branch, the Montauk branch, and the "lower Montauk" (the diesel-only branch from Jamaica to LIC) use Rule 251, or wayside Automatic signals in 1 direction only. East of Ronkonkoma and Speonk uses train orders (no signals at all). Everywhere else is cab signalling, with home signals only at interlockings.

[TrainFanatic]

About three weeks ago a LIRR engineer told me that the top speed on the line is 80 mph but the top speed on the M7's is 100 mph. Do they really follow the speed limits at all times?

[Trainmaster5]

About three weeks ago a LIRR t/o told me that the top speed on the line is 80 mph but the top speed on the M7's is 100 mph. Do they really follow the speed limits at all times?

 

I hope you mean a LIRR engineer 'cause otherwise you are insulting some very professional people.The LIRR has no title called T/O. I also think that someone is either pulling your leg, or you might have misunderstood something in translation. IIRC speeding leads to charges and termination on the LIRR.

[Joe]

About three weeks ago a LIRR t/o told me that the top speed on the line is 80 mph but the top speed on the M7's is 100 mph. Do they really follow the speed limits at all times?

 

Pretty much correct aside from your error concerning the name of their craft. They're engineers, not train operators. Don't insult them.

 

The MAS (maximum authorized speed) on the LIRR is 80mph in electric territory (65mph in diesel)...M1s were known to be able to go 100mph+ however. M7s can certainly reach 100mph and are capable of much higher acceleration rates than what they run currently. The cars are slowed down in software, analogous to the way certain retired subway cars can be slowed down by adjusting their accelerating relay (applies to PC8-15 groups only).

 

On the older LIRR equipment, the speedometer in the cab was not at all tied in with the cab signal unit. There was usually a significant difference between what your speedometer indicated was overspeed and the overspeed bell. Now on the M7s with everything computer controlled, the speedometer is the speedometer; though just like the old equipment, it relies on correct wheel size setting. It's like the speedometers for your bicycle...if you set your device to 700c wheels and you're riding a dinky BMX bike with 20" wheels, there's going to be a significant error in the readings you'll receive.

[Joel Up Front]

That map is the damn SIZE of Long Island. I put it at 1000% zoom and my four year old PC nearly frickin crashed, but I still couldn't see the speeds! The station names were barely visible...

[metsfan]

The PDF file is large, you must open it in a PDF reader to get proper navigation functionality.

 

LIRR tracks, their geometry, the way the switches are, the proximity to wayside structures and platforms, all really date back to the steam era, and really have never been properly modernized. I mean, even the silverliner 2 and 3 go 95 mph where permitted, and they are way older than the M7's. I believe the technical term for LIRR tracks is FRA tier 3 or 80 mph, tier 4 is 110 mph.

 

What needs to happen is they need to eliminate grade crossings entirely, till then LIRR will lag way behind. Another thing, that will likely never happen, is conversion to overhead wire vs 3rd rail. 3rd rail running is only effective to a certain speed, above which there's not enough current passing through & the train will slow down. Double shoes and slightly wider 3rd rail might alleviate this.

 

- A

[TrainFanatic]

I hope you mean a LIRR engineer 'cause otherwise you are insulting some very professional people.The LIRR has no title called T/O.

 

Opps. Corrected. Thou I don't understand. What's the difference?

[Joe]

Opps. Corrected. Thou I don't understand. What's the difference?

 

Engineers move trains, TOs move handles.

[Trainmaster5]

Opps. Corrected. Thou I don't understand. What's the difference?

 

I also stand corrected. For some reason I was under the impression that you were inferring that LIRR engineers were routinely barreling down the road at 100+mph. I apologize as, was pointed out, the units are capable of such speeds although not operated at those speeds in normal operation. Also, as previously stated, a T/O moves handles. I was hired as subway motorman, with diesel qualification added. Not quite an engineer but certainly not a T/O.Those of us M/M still around in the subway system take being called a T/O as an insult.

[Joe]

Those of us M/M still around in the subway system take being called a T/O as an insult.

 

Unfortunately the number of M/M is dwindling...a lost art these days.

[TrainFanatic]

I also stand corrected. For some reason I was under the impression that you were inferring that LIRR engineers were routinely barreling down the road at 100+mph. I apologize as, was pointed out, the units are capable of such speeds although not operated at those speeds in normal operation. Also, as previously stated, a T/O moves handles. I was hired as subway motorman, with diesel qualification added. Not quite an engineer but certainly not a T/O.Those of us M/M still around in the subway system take being called a T/O as an insult.

 

No problem. Thanks for the info.

[Stamford516Guy]

Those of us M/M still around in the subway system take being called a T/O as an insult.

 

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is the difference between a M/M and a T/O? Back in the day they just used to call them motormen. Thanks!

[Joe]

A great man once said: "The difference between the two is simple, a motorman reaches for his tool bag when there is trouble. A train operator reaches for the radio to call for help."

[metsfan]

LRV has train operators, they are not federally licensed engineers, and sometimes are pooled with bus operators due to the similarities and street running.

 

PATH has FRA licensed engineers, they run on FRA regulated tracks.

 

Subway is heavy rail rapid transit similar to PATH, however it is an enclosed system, with no chance of inter-operation with FRA regulated trackage. Motormen (the term) dates back to the earliest traction systems (trolly/inter-urban) where the motorman would be the mechanic as well as the vehicle's operator, there was usually also a conductor for fare collection. This term stuck as the lines became elevated and the equipment became heavier over time, and eventually some of the elevated portions became integrated into the subway.

 

On NCS or HBLR i call them train operator, on PATH engineer, on NYCTA subway i call them motormen, unless female in which case motorperson. :cool: :tup:

 

- A

[INDman]

On NCS or HBLR i call them train operator, on PATH engineer, on NYCTA subway i call them motormen, unless female in which case motorperson. :cool: :tup:

 

- A

 

There are only a hand full of motormen left with the TA. To call a T/O a train operator is an insult to M/M who actually know what there doing. Also, motorperson is a BS politicly correct term that has no place in any dissucssion of rail operations.

[metsfan]

Well a woman isn't a man, it has nothing to do with political anything.

 

- A

[Stamford516Guy]

Hey thanks for the info about motor- uh people!

[SouthernRailway]

So to recap what I'm seeing, the LIRR has a 65 mph speed limit for diesel and 80 mph for electric.

 

I've looked at the start-to-stop average speeds for trips I've taken on the LIRR (and other railroads) and commuter trains seem to average around 30 mph.

 

Why is the LIRR not at least running diesel trains at 79 mph, like Amtrak does on most of its non-Northeast Corridor routes? Why aren't EMUs run at the equipment's maximum speed? Is it an infrastructure issue (lacking the right signaling)? Same for other NY-area commuter railroads; plenty of them run express trains, skipping multiple stations (thus for distances of 10-15 miles or more without stopping), on electrified routes on what seems to be newish track with new equipment, yet average speeds are only about 30 mph.

 

For all the emphasis on high speed rail, speeding up NY-area commuter railroads by even a few miles per hour, on average, would have a much more beneficial impact on more people's lives than speeding up an Amtrak route would do.

[Amtrak7]

On commuter rail, there are speed limits everywhere, from curvature to switches to station platforms to track condition. Not sure why diesels are limited to 65, I believe it's a signalling issue. Amtrak uses ACSES on the NEC and anywhere it exceeds 79MPH, similar to PTC where the engineer gets the speed limits in the cab. On LIRR, the engineer sees signal-related speed restrictions in the cab, but territory-related ones need to be remembered. ACSES also enforces the speed restrictions.

 

It could also have to do with track class per FRA rules.

[SouthernRailway]

Thanks- very helpful.

 

Follow-up question: why don't NY-area commuter railroads make improvements in signaling and track to allow trains to run at higher speeds?

 

They put plenty of money into electrification, high-level platforms, sidings and double-tracking, new cars and more to make trains run faster- why not take those additional steps?

 

I see that the UK has a commuter train that goes 125 mph- why not here?

 

(Yes, it's expensive, but surely the hundreds of thousands of voters who ride the LIRR, MN and NJ Transit would go for it.)

[Rutgers Tube]

Thanks- very helpful.

 

Follow-up question: why don't NY-area commuter railroads make improvements in signaling and track to allow trains to run at higher speeds?

 

Signalling only goes so far in increasing speeds. To condense a very long answer to your question, train traffic, numerous stations, the lack of straight trackage, aging infrastructure, FRA regulations, weather and costs are the biggest reasons why the regional systems operate the way that they do.

 

They put plenty of money into electrification, high-level platforms, sidings and double-tracking, new cars and more to make trains run faster- why not take those additional steps?

 

There is only so much that the mass transportation providers in this region can feasibly do to upgrade infrastructure and equipment in order to provide in order to provide faster, safer and more reliable service. Whatever can be done is either currently being done, in the works for the future or has been discussed.

 

I see that the UK has a commuter train that goes 125 mph- why not here?

 

Are you sure that you don't mean 125 kph (kilometers per hour)? While the UK uses the SI (commonly referred to as "metric") for almost all measurements, the English railroad system still uses the same measurement units as the U.S. for many applications. Though the English railroad officially measures speed in terms of miles per hour, the widespread use of the SI causes some confusion. Depending on your source, kph may have been the intended measurement rather than mph. 125 kph is equivalent to just under 78 mph.

 

(Yes, it's expensive, but surely the hundreds of thousands of voters who ride the LIRR, MN and NJ Transit would go for it.)

 

What voters? Commuters don't vote, and board members for the various area transportation providers care about their pockets being fat and the media and customers being off their backs.

[SouthernRailway]

Thanks for the info. I appreciate the response.

 

The UK's high-speed commuter train is here, and I got the speed wrong; it's 140 mph, rather than 125:

 

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23713092-britains-fastest-commuter-train-arrives-early-on-maiden-journey.do

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jun/18/high-speed-train-commuter

 

If I lived in one of the counties around NYC and were subject to the MTA tax, or in New Jersey, I'd sure be pushing my local politicians to get something like this-at least on the Northeast Corridor.

[Joel Up Front]

The UK still does use miles and miles per hour for road infrastructure.

 

And after all, the standard gauge our railroads use was invented in Scotland.