Crosstown subway shuttles

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I was traveling a bit yesterday and had to go crosstown. The thought crossed my mind as I crawled on the M34 about if the MTA ever considered or is considering building subway shuttles on the main crosstown streets (i.e. 23rd st, 34th st., etc)? I know many will argue that it would be too expensive and take too long, but seeing how the population is growing here and the congestion problems, I would think it would be something to consider in the future. Thoughts?

[Guest lance25]

It doesn't make any sense to build new subway for relatively short routes. A better alternative is to make a streetcar route or something with the Select Bus Service for the crosstown streets. However, cars would still need to be able to use the streets as 34th Street for example, leads to the Holland and Queens Midtown tunnels.

 

Also, the subway can't be the answer to every transit issue. The subway is to transfer people from one part of the city to another, not down the street; that's what buses are for.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It doesn't make sense to build new subway for relatively short routes. A better alternative is to make a streetcar route or something with the Select Bus Service for the crosstown streets. However, cars would still need to be able to use the streets as 34th Street for example, leads to the Holland and Queens Midtown tunnels.

 

That idea crossed my mind too (making streetcar routes)... I was thinking about the whole subway shuttle because of the shuttle at 42nd street. Just wondering if they have any other tunnels that they haven't completed? If they don't then why did they build a shuttle just at 42nd street?

 

Regarding crosstown service, what I have noticed noticed with this whole "enforcement" procedure is that buses are still being blocked on 34th street. The funny thing is it is police cars that are parking in the lanes now, so how would streetcar trolleys be any better, even with Select-Bus-Service?

[Kamen Rider]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[Via Garibaldi 8]

34th street is impassable at 6th, you have PATH, the IND, the BMT, the East River tunnels and an Aqueduct.

 

If you wanted to head crosstown via the subway, you would still have to go up to Grand Central or down to 14th street for the L.

[INDman]

If you wanted to head crosstown via the subway, you would still have to go up to Grand Central or down to 14th street for the L.

 

It means that the TA can't build a crosstown subway on 34th St.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It means that the TA can't build a crosstown subway on 34th St.

 

So what would you suggest then? I'm sure you have 2 cents for this conversation.

[INDman]

So what would you suggest then? I'm sure you have 2 cents for this conversation.

 

What I suggest is that you learn to deal with the traffic, it's nothing new to the city. If you have to go crosstown, walk. There will never be a crosstown subway shuttle on 34th St or any other major street.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What I suggest is that you learn to deal with the traffic, it's nothing new to the city. If you have to go crosstown, walk. There will never be a crosstown subway shuttle on 34th St or any other major street.

 

I just merely stated an idea out of curiosity... And as far as your other comment, you must have stock in the MTA to be able to know what will ever be built here.

[asidrane]

If they don't then why did they build a shuttle just at 42nd street?

 

The 42nd St. shuttle is a remnant of the way the IRT was originally built. The original service pattern went from Bowling Green to 42nd St and then west along 42nd until 7th Ave. where it headed north. The upper east side and lower west side tracks were added later and the crosstown tracks were converted to a crosstown shuttle.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The 42nd St. shuttle is a remnant of the way the IRT was originally built. The original service pattern went from Bowling Green to 42nd St and then west along 42nd until 7th Ave. where it headed north. The upper east side and lower west side tracks were added later and the crosstown tracks were converted to a crosstown shuttle.

 

So do they have any other unfinished tracks anywhere aside on the second avenue line?

[Roadcruiser1]

If a new crosstown subway is built it might most likely utilize 23rd Street. The area around there is less crowded, but it might work.

[INDman]

And as far as your other comment, you must have stock in the MTA to be able to know what will ever be built here.

 

Maybe I do, I also know enough that if they did build a crosstown subway, it wouldn't open in my lifetime or yours. Just look at the 2nd Ave subway.

 

And yes there are unfinished sections of the system all over the place, there was recently a thread on that topic.

[EE Broadway Local]

In the past, there were at least two plans that were considered but never came to fruition.

 

One of these was a relocation and extension of the B.M.T. Fourteenth Street-Canarsie line. (I'm not sure if 23d Street was the street considered for this)

 

The other was a new crosstown subway between First and Twelfth Avenues. (The only reason I can think of for a subway on 48th Street would be it would parallel the M50 on 49th and 50th Streets).

 

Not entirely crosstown, but the "Avenue C Cuphandle" would've created subway service in Alphabet City by a new line from the Sixth Avenue IND. at East Houston Street to the Fourteenth Street-Canarsie Line at East 14th Street via Avenue C. Trains would've run to Eighth Avenue.

 

I think what Kamen Rider and INDman are referring to are the complexities a 34th Street crosstown subway would face in tunneling at Herald Square with the IND. Sixth Avenue, B.M.T. Broadway subways, the East River tunnels and PATH. A 34th Street crosstown subway would have to be very deep at this point.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Maybe I do, I also know enough that if they did build a crosstown subway, it wouldn't open in my lifetime or yours. Just look at the 2nd Ave subway.

 

And yes there are unfinished sections of the system all over the place, there was recently a thread on that topic.

 

Believe me I know how slow they are, I used to work for them, so I can confirm that...

 

Now back to my original thread... I wouldn't see anything being built for at least 20 - 30 years. However, the MTA has to be thinking about future population growth and in 20 - 30 years time if the city continues to expand as it is now, even during a recession, a crosstown shuttle or something that eleviates the overcrowding and congestion on buses would have to be considered. That was basically my point.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

In the past, there were at least two plans that were considered but never came to fruition.

 

One of these was a relocation and extension of the B.M.T. Fourteenth Street-Canarsie line. (I'm not sure if 23d Street was the street considered for this)

 

The other was a new crosstown subway between First and Twelfth Avenues. (The only reason I can think of for a subway on 48th Street would be it would parallel the M50 on 49th and 50th Streets).

 

Not entirely crosstown, but the "Avenue C Cuphandle" would've created subway service in Alphabet City by a new line from the Sixth Avenue IND. at East Houston Street to the Fourteenth Street-Canarsie Line at East 14th Street via Avenue C. Trains would've run to Eighth Avenue.

 

I think what Kamen Rider and INDman are referring to are the complexities a 34th Street crosstown subway would face in tunneling at Herald Square with the IND. Sixth Avenue, B.M.T. Broadway subways, the East River tunnels and PATH. A 34th Street crosstown subway would have to be very deep at this point.

 

And do you know why it was killed off? It's nice to know that were at least considering something. I mean it just makes sense.

[EE Broadway Local]

The Second Avenue Subway was left out of the M.T.A.'s Capital Budget in 1976 during our city's fiscal crises. The other two, I think, simply never left the planning board. The only reference I can find to the 48th Street or Fourteenth Street-Canarsie Line relocation plan is a mention in Uptown Downtown page 72. These, apparently were part of the 1968 Plan For Action, much of which went unrealized.

And do you know why it was killed off? It's nice to know that were at least considering something. I mean it just makes sense.

[Guest lance25]

Think about your idea for a second and look at the shuttles that currently exist. Look at how they connect to other lines. 42nd Street connects to the Lexington and Seventh Avenue lines, Franklin Avenue to Brighton and Rockaway Park to the rest of the line. Shuttles need to connect to some other line for the trains to be serviced/maintained/etc. You can't just dig a tunnel under 34th or 23rd Street and plop some trains on it. This isn't Sim City. Plus, like Kamen Rider said, they would have to dig under five different four-track trunk lines to get from one end of Manhattan to the other.

 

No, the best way would be to add Select Bus Service onto the crosstown routes (and stop Bloomberg's sidewalk plaza crap). Even if the suddenly acquired vasts amounts of federal/state/etc. funds for new construction, do you really think they'd waste it on expensive projects that really don't offer much in return for the projects' exponential costs? No, they'd put that money to other uses.

 

P.S. Answering your question to 70(EE), budget problems killed the ideas.

[EE Broadway Local]

I found this map from the 1968 M.T.A. Program For Action at the JoeKorner. It shows the 48th Street crosstown. The line would've served the new Metropolitan Transportation Center.

Link to map: http://www.thejoekorner.com/scripted-ticket-display.shtm?http://thejoekorner.com/lines/mtapfalm.jpg

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Think about your idea for a second and look at the shuttles that currently exist. Look at how they connect to other lines. 42nd Street connects to the Lexington and Seventh Avenue lines, Franklin Avenue to Brighton and Rockaway Park to the rest of the line. Shuttles need to connect to some other line for the trains to be serviced/maintained/etc. You can't just dig a tunnel under 34th or 23rd Street and plop some trains on it. This isn't Sim City. Plus, like Kamen Rider said, they would have to dig under five different four-track trunk lines to get from one end of Manhattan to the other.

 

No, the best way would be to add Select Bus Service onto the crosstown routes (and stop Bloomberg's sidewalk plaza crap). Even if the suddenly acquired vasts amounts of federal/state/etc. funds for new construction, do you really think they'd waste it on expensive projects that really don't offer much in return for the projects' exponential costs? No, they'd put that money to other uses.

 

P.S. Answering your question to 70(EE), budget problems killed the ideas.

 

I just wondered if the MTA had considered it... The only problem with what you're proposing is how would Select-Bus-Service be any better? I think you have to look at how you can move more people and eleviate some of the congestion that the city will be facing 20 - 30 years down the line and not just say, okay let's just throw in some select buses. I mean quite frankly there are quite a few connection points for trains on 34th and 23rd street and if you extended the 7 line down to 34th street, who knows. My thinking though is that what we see as pointless today could very well serve us 30 years from now, so if not a subway, then something that can move people while also eleviating the congestion as well.

 

Regarding the plazas... I like some of them. They remind me very much of being back in Europe... I think they work well in some places like on 23rd and Broadway, but having them in 34th street... There's just too much congestion right there and no where for the traffic to go.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I found this map from the 1968 M.T.A. Program For Action at the JoeKorner. It shows the 48th Street crosstown. The line would've served the new Metropolitan Transportation Center.

Link to map: http://www.thejoekorner.com/scripted-ticket-display.shtm?http://thejoekorner.com/lines/mtapfalm.jpg

 

Just imagine if we had some of those lines in place today... We'd be talking about quite a different city for sure.