Transmission Question

[Fresh Pond]

Up until recently, I thought the Allison V731 (the transmission used in the RTS) was a 5 speed transmission, but I found out its actually a 3 speed. So that brings up my question. Of all the transmissions used in the , how many speeds does each transmission have?

 

I think the ZF Ecolife transmission used in the LFSAs is a 6 speed, but then again I'm not sure

[Queens Surface]

Up until recently, I thought the Allison V731 (the transmission used in the RTS) was a 5 speed transmission, but I found out its actually a 3 speed. So that brings up my question. Of all the transmissions used in the , how many speeds does each transmission have?

 

I think the ZF Ecolife transmission used in the LFSAs is a 6 speed, but then again I'm not sure

 

Well For Allison:

 

V731 = 3 Gears

Allison B-400R = 4 Gears

Allison B-500R = 5 Gears (Except the World Series seems to have 6 but some T/As use it as a Lock-up)

 

Now for ZF:

 

ZF ECOMAT-2 HP-592C = 5 Gears

 

ZF EcoLife 6 AP 1200 B = 6 Gears

 

Hope that clears up anything.

[Fresh Pond]

Wirelessly posted via (BlackBerry8520/5.0.0.900 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/100)

 

Ahhh I see, thanks. Now I have another question, what's a lock-up?

['89 Liberty MCI]

Actually I believe the B400R and B500R can have 4 or 5 gears regardless of model number. The 1000-1069 D60HFs have a B400R4 or B500R4 (4 gears). 1070-1109 and 5xxx D60HFs have a B400R5 or B500R5 (5 gears). All Orion V diesels have a B400R4. I think Orion V CNGs also have a B400R4 and Orion VII CNGs have a B400R5. B400R isn't automatically 4 gears, B500R is not automatically 5 gears. I have read for a while that our D60HFs have a B400R but just found something on another forum that said that's probably not the case because such a heavy bus would kill a B400R in no time. A B500R probably has larger gears and is definitely larger altogether than a B400R. That and/or it can accept a more powerful input.

 

I don't know much about how the ZFs are named. I'm not 100% certain about what has a B400R and what has a B500R but I am 100% certain about the number of gears on the buses above. That can be confirmed by looking at the number on the transmission keypad on any bus with an Allison WTEC (World) tranny while the transmission is in drive ( D). Probably same for the ZFs. Buses with CVTs like the hybrids and with Allison ATEC trannys (V731, VR731) like the RTS and Classic will not give you this information.

 

But basically the main point is that B400R is not automatically 4 gears, B500R is not automatically 5 gears. Actually the MCIs have 6 gears so they have an Allison B500R6, but not a B600R. I don't even know if a B600R exists. They should have a B500R since I was told this a while back and a B400R on an OTR bus sounds very ineffective and inefficient.

['89 Liberty MCI]

Lock-up is when you shift into a gear and it stays there for a minute. May be a safety mechanism or just how the tranny is designed but I am not 100% sure. I know if you listen to a B400R or B500R shifting, you can hear the difference. It also helps if you are on a bus with a keypad that has the two green characters (under SELECT on the left and MONITOR on the right). The Artics 1000-1069 have this along with 4xx, 5xx, 6xx Orion Vs. I think MCI D4500s 3346 and up or something like that also have it. But when you hear the engine revving up and it suddenly calms down, that calming down is usually when the gear changes. The RPM meter confirms the revving but I don't remember if our buses still have them on the dash. You can observe the number of the gear changing and confirm that the gear is changing on buses with the two green characters. The character on the left (usually labeled SELECT but many labels are removed when maintenance touches them) is whatever you shifted into by pressing the keypad. The character on the right (usually labeled MONITOR but also many labels are removed when touched by maintenance) is whatever the tranny is doing, like when it goes thru 1-2-3-4 as you accelerate. But our buses with the B400R/B500R will have the revving up/down even when the gear does not change but instead is locking up. This occurs in second gear only as far as I know.

 

So you'll hear the bus revving as you accelerate and it may sound like 1-2-3-4 on a 4-speed tranny, but what you are hearing in fact is 1-2-2 lockup-3 and then 4 if you're going fast enough. I don't know if 5-speed trannies ever get up to 5th gear unless they use the highway. Also I don't know exactly how all of them shift relative to bus speed/engine RPM. They all change once they leave the factory, go into service, and maintenance touches them (or neglects them for a long time).

 

I think it's something like this for a 4-speed:

 

Shift into 2nd at 10mph, into 2nd lockup at 17-18mph, into 3rd at 24-25, into 4th at 35-40.

 

For a 5-speed:

 

Into 2nd at 10mph, into 2nd lockup at 17-18mph, into 3rd at 24-25, into 4th at 35-40, into 5th at 45???

 

If I listen more closely and see enough scenarios I can find out.

[Queens Surface]

Actually I believe the B400R and B500R can have 4 or 5 gears regardless of model number. The 1000-1069 D60HFs have a B400R4 or B500R4 (4 gears). 1070-1109 and 5xxx D60HFs have a B400R5 or B500R5 (5 gears). All Orion V diesels have a B400R4. I think Orion V CNGs also have a B400R4 and Orion VII CNGs have a B400R5. B400R isn't automatically 4 gears, B500R is not automatically 5 gears. I have read for a while that our D60HFs have a B400R but just found something on another forum that said that's probably not the case because such a heavy bus would kill a B400R in no time. A B500R probably has larger gears and is definitely larger altogether than a B400R. That and/or it can accept a more powerful input.

 

I don't know much about how the ZFs are named. I'm not 100% certain about what has a B400R and what has a B500R but I am 100% certain about the number of gears on the buses above. That can be confirmed by looking at the number on the transmission keypad on any bus with an Allison WTEC (World) tranny while the transmission is in drive ( D). Probably same for the ZFs. Buses with CVTs like the hybrids and with Allison ATEC trannys (V731, VR731) like the RTS and Classic will not give you this information.

 

But basically the main point is that B400R is not automatically 4 gears, B500R is not automatically 5 gears. Actually the MCIs have 6 gears so they have an Allison B500R6, but not a B600R. I don't even know if a B600R exists. They should have a B500R since I was told this a while back and a B400R on an OTR bus sounds very ineffective and inefficient.

 

I did some more research, All of the D60HFs have B-500Rs in them. Now what I found out about the B400R is that it can have 4 or 5 or even 6 gears like you said. As well as the B500R can only have 5 or 6 gears.

[Fresh Pond]

Wirelessly posted via (BlackBerry8520/5.0.0.900 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/100)

 

Ahh, you mean the tachometer. Nope none our buses have them.

['89 Liberty MCI]

Yeah they really don't care to show much extra business on the dash. No tachometer, no fuel gauge, but for some reason there are voltmeters on the thing.

[Fresh Pond]

Wirelessly posted via (BlackBerry8520/5.0.0.900 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/100)

 

Yeah they really don't care to show much extra business on the dash. No tachometer, no fuel gauge, but for some reason there are voltmeters on the thing.

 

Some of the older RTS have a fuel gauge along with the older Orion Vs but I doubt they work anymore

[OC Transpo 8238]

Do the buses have a tachometer on the rear right hand wheel rim?

 

70(8)70(2)70(3)70(8)

[SoSpectacular]

Newer models of the B400R/B500Rs have a "R5/R6" designation on them signifying the number of gears.

[Fresh Pond]

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Do the buses have a tachometer on the rear right hand wheel rim?

 

70(8)70(2)70(3)70(8)

 

I think that's another type of odometer

[OC Transpo 8238]

Wirelessly posted via (BlackBerry8520/5.0.0.900 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/100)

 

 

I think that's another type of odometer

It very well could be, I have checked those a couple times on Ottawa's Orion V's to see how many km's it has travelled.

 

On another note about the dashboards, OC Transpo's Silversides had fuel gauges and voltage meters, but since then our Classic's and D40's and V's and VI's never had fuel gauges. I cannot remember if the D40i's do, but the LFS, and VII NG HEV, and D60LFR's have fuel gauges.

 

70(8)70(2)70(3)70(8)

[TransitStop]

im not sure but i think i've seen a fuel gauge on the d40i's

[OC Transpo 8238]

im not sure but i think i've seen a fuel gauge on the d40i's

None of those are fuel gauges, from left to right: front axel pressure, rear axel pressure, spedometer, brake pressure.

 

So D40i's at OC Transpo don't have fuel guages.

[Van2006ko]

Lock-up is when you shift into a gear and it stays there for a minute. May be a safety mechanism or just how the tranny is designed but I am not 100% sure. I know if you listen to a B400R or B500R shifting, you can hear the difference. It also helps if you are on a bus with a keypad that has the two green characters (under SELECT on the left and MONITOR on the right). The Artics 1000-1069 have this along with 4xx, 5xx, 6xx Orion Vs. I think MCI D4500s 3346 and up or something like that also have it. But when you hear the engine revving up and it suddenly calms down, that calming down is usually when the gear changes. The RPM meter confirms the revving but I don't remember if our buses still have them on the dash. You can observe the number of the gear changing and confirm that the gear is changing on buses with the two green characters. The character on the left (usually labeled SELECT but many labels are removed when maintenance touches them) is whatever you shifted into by pressing the keypad. The character on the right (usually labeled MONITOR but also many labels are removed when touched by maintenance) is whatever the tranny is doing, like when it goes thru 1-2-3-4 as you accelerate. But our buses with the B400R/B500R will have the revving up/down even when the gear does not change but instead is locking up. This occurs in second gear only as far as I know.

 

So you'll hear the bus revving as you accelerate and it may sound like 1-2-3-4 on a 4-speed tranny, but what you are hearing in fact is 1-2-2 lockup-3 and then 4 if you're going fast enough. I don't know if 5-speed trannies ever get up to 5th gear unless they use the highway. Also I don't know exactly how all of them shift relative to bus speed/engine RPM. They all change once they leave the factory, go into service, and maintenance touches them (or neglects them for a long time).

 

I think it's something like this for a 4-speed:

 

Shift into 2nd at 10mph, into 2nd lockup at 17-18mph, into 3rd at 24-25, into 4th at 35-40.

 

For a 5-speed:

 

Into 2nd at 10mph, into 2nd lockup at 17-18mph, into 3rd at 24-25, into 4th at 35-40, into 5th at 45???

 

If I listen more closely and see enough scenarios I can find out.

Well you have the lock up shift point correct, however, lock up just means that the transmission slip will occur when the torque converter is unlocked then the torque would be multiplied. This helps the bus to initially get up to speed faster and also help on the hills initially. Without this torque converter feature, the engine would stall out. If the torque does not get multiplied, then the bus would barely be moving. When the transmission is unlocked, the Engine RPM would be more "free", once the lock-up is engage, the Engine transmission RPM will be slaved, since the transmission is in the mechanical side of the gear.

 

The Allison world series can have anywhere between 4 to 6 gears. 5 gears is the standard for transit authorities, and 6 is the standard for Over the road coaches. Recently, six may be the new standard due to LBSS, load base shifting scheduling.

 

I don't know much about how the ZFs are named.

 

X HP 4, 5 or 6 - Number of gears. 5 is the standard on them, but recently 6 is the new standard.

[Joel Up Front]

I doubt you'll get to hear the bus climb through the gears unless you really start flying for a good mile, but do those B400R specs also apply to the LIB Orions?

[Van2006ko]

I doubt you'll get to hear the bus climb through the gears unless you really start flying for a good mile, but do those B400R specs also apply to the LIB Orions?

 

Sure all Allison World Series are like that.

[20 Dundalk]

In Fort Worth the C30,35&40LF buses have Allison B400R 5 speed we have lots of long straight shots where we can hit 50+ MPH and i count 5 shifts plus i can see the trans shifter has a red "5" while in gear

[Joel Up Front]

Why is there no line dividing my post and "Shadowboxing" lyric quote?

 

The B400R is a solid transmission in LIB's case (can't vouch for the city) but it seems like a waste if it's attached to an underpowered Series 50G.

[20 Dundalk]

I think on our New Flyers they are using the Cummins ISL? on CNG not sure but i do know i have been on 40 footers that pass cars easly on the route especialy when the Operator is late

[Fresh Pond]

I think on our New Flyers they are using the Cummins ISL? on CNG not sure but i do know i have been on 40 footers that pass cars easly on the route especialy when the Operator is late

 

Its probably an ISL G

[East New York]

Well you have the lock up shift point correct, however, lock up just means that the transmission slip will occur when the torque converter is unlocked then the torque would be multiplied. This helps the bus to initially get up to speed faster and also help on the hills initially. Without this torque converter feature, the engine would stall out. If the torque does not get multiplied, then the bus would barely be moving. When the transmission is unlocked, the Engine RPM would be more "free", once the lock-up is engage, the Engine transmission RPM will be slaved, since the transmission is in the mechanical side of the gear.

 

The Allison world series can have anywhere between 4 to 6 gears. 5 gears is the standard for transit authorities, and 6 is the standard for Over the road coaches. Recently, six may be the new standard due to LBSS, load base shifting scheduling.

 

 

 

X HP 4, 5 or 6 - Number of gears. 5 is the standard on them, but recently 6 is the new standard.

 

Everyone please take note! If you feel it is absolutely necessary to bump an older thread, please contribute something of substance, such as this!

 

:tup:

[Van2006ko]

Its probably an ISL G

 

Cummins ISL-G is the new standard for the CNG engines. I do have an question for you guys, can someone take a photo of the gear selectors on the 2010 Nova LFS? When I was up there a few weeks ago, I have ridden on bus #1234 and noticed that the transmission has an whine sound, after checking the specifications, it says that this bus is equipped with the ZF Ecolife. However, there a revolution going on, I think they may in fact have the ZF Ecomat. The issue is, the ZF Ecolife does not make any real notable ambient sounds. In fact, it sounds pretty dull.

 

Also heard that the ZF Ecomat may be phased out completely by the ZF Ecolife within the next year or so, if not done so already.

[traildriver]

Just be glad they don't use ZF "Astronic" 12 Speeds like those used on some MCI J4500 and Prevost coaches....what a PITA when accelerating in city traffic....I'd much rather have any Allison or even an old manual tranny.....