m7zanr160s Posted February 14, 2011 Share #1 Posted February 14, 2011 Has anyone ever tried to implement a heated shoe for 3rd rail contact in heavy snow and ice conditions? Do you think that would work; it sounds like a good idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INDman Posted February 14, 2011 Share #2 Posted February 14, 2011 Has anyone ever tried to implement a heated shoe for 3rd rail contact in heavy snow and ice conditions? Do you think that would work; it sounds like a good idea? Heating the 3rd rail shoe or current collector (NTTs) is a waste of money and energy. What is more effective is heating strips on the 3rd rail and the application of chemicals to prevent ice from building up on the 3rd rail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m7zanr160s Posted February 14, 2011 Author Share #3 Posted February 14, 2011 Heating the 3rd rail shoe or current collector (NTTs) is a waste of money and energy. What is more effective is heating strips on the 3rd rail and the application of chemicals to prevent ice from building up on the 3rd rail. Yeah, that sounds better. I was also thinking that new equipment like, the R179's and on, could have de-icer already eqipped so they wouldn't need a special car for that matter. Would that work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INDman Posted February 14, 2011 Share #4 Posted February 14, 2011 Yeah, that sounds better. I was also thinking that new equipment like, the R179's and on, could have de-icer already eqipped so they wouldn't need a special car for that matter. Would that work? I doubt that having a built in deicer sprayer would be worth the money. Not only would you have at least 1 per 5 car unit, but they would also have to be maintained all the time so that they did work when needed. What they should really do is go back tot he older style shoes which had less problems during the December blizzard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metsfan Posted February 17, 2011 Share #5 Posted February 17, 2011 The shoe all ready gets warm enough picking up current. - A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted February 17, 2011 Share #6 Posted February 17, 2011 The shoe all ready gets warm enough picking up current. - A proff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kentsfield Posted February 17, 2011 Share #7 Posted February 17, 2011 proff? Any conductor has resistance to current and therefore converts some of it into heat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted February 17, 2011 Share #8 Posted February 17, 2011 Any conductor has resistance to current and therefore converts some of it into heat. Thanks for the EE lesson. I'd like to know how metsfan ascertained the temperature of the shoe though. Furthermore, it is a large metal object moving quite rapidly with air moving over it. How do we figure out how much heat is dissipated into the air? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messino Posted February 17, 2011 Share #9 Posted February 17, 2011 Thanks for the EE lesson. I'd like to know how metsfan ascertained the temperature of the shoe though. Furthermore, it is a large metal object moving quite rapidly with air moving over it. How do we figure out how much heat is dissipated into the air? I heard that he attached a magical temperature probe that wouldnt short out to the hot shoe and recorded the data on his laptop from inside the train while standing in a puddle of water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INDman Posted February 17, 2011 Share #10 Posted February 17, 2011 I heard that he attached a magical temperature probe that wouldnt short out to the hot shoe and recorded the data on his laptop from inside the train while standing in a puddle of water. One could only hope.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rr4567 Posted February 17, 2011 Share #11 Posted February 17, 2011 Heating the 3rd rail shoe or current collector (NTTs) is a waste of money and energy. What is more effective is heating strips on the 3rd rail and the application of chemicals to prevent ice from building up on the 3rd rail. And how would they get these chemicals to the 3rd rail? It seems one of the only ways to do that is to have a pipe alongside the rail with the chemicals I heard that he attached a magical temperature probe that wouldnt short out to the hot shoe and recorded the data on his laptop from inside the train while standing in a puddle of water. And nobody thought the one cord running from his laptop to outside the train through the doors was weird? B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted February 17, 2011 Share #12 Posted February 17, 2011 And nobody thought the one cord running from his laptop to outside the train through the doors was weird? As long as the wire doesn't get snagged! Gallon jug of water is useful for keeping the wire taut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rr4567 Posted February 17, 2011 Share #13 Posted February 17, 2011 As long as the wire doesn't get snagged! Gallon jug of water is useful for keeping the wire taut. You've made it impossible for me to NOT post this image Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted February 17, 2011 Share #14 Posted February 17, 2011 Difficult problems call for inventive solutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INDman Posted February 18, 2011 Share #15 Posted February 18, 2011 And how would they get these chemicals to the 3rd rail? It seems one of the only ways to do that is to have a pipe alongside the rail with the chemicals And nobody thought the one cord running from his laptop to outside the train through the doors was weird? Let me dig through some work train stuff. Why would you use a pipe, there is this thing called rubber tubing that would work just the same minus the whole becoming energized when on the rail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metsfan Posted February 20, 2011 Share #16 Posted February 20, 2011 So you're trying to tell me a piece of metal the size of my phone doesn't get warm while conveying several hundred amps at 650 volts as well as arcing here and there? *hangs up the phone* - A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INDman Posted February 20, 2011 Share #17 Posted February 20, 2011 So you're trying to tell me a piece of metal the size of my phone doesn't get warm while conveying several hundred amps at 650 volts as well as arcing here and there? *hangs up the phone* - A It may get warm, but it sure as shit won't get hot enough to melt anything. Plus, the 3rd rail switches sides so much that it would cool off very fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheArr Posted February 21, 2011 Share #18 Posted February 21, 2011 Don't switches also have to be cleared of snow and ice? I don't see how a hot shoe will solve that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted February 21, 2011 Share #19 Posted February 21, 2011 Don't switches also have to be cleared of snow and ice? I don't see how a hot shoe will solve that. It won't. Neither will it solve the problem of ice in the flangeways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INDman Posted February 21, 2011 Share #20 Posted February 21, 2011 Don't switches also have to be cleared of snow and ice? I don't see how a hot shoe will solve that. They have electric heaters, but they can only do so much. Once you get an ice build up, the switch will hang up and f**k up the road nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metsfan Posted February 22, 2011 Share #21 Posted February 22, 2011 The only time tested method of clearing ice, is switch heaters and scraper shoes. That combined with the alcohol train is all you really need. It's a fact that water, frozen as ice, can solidify to the point that it can get as hard as steel, so switch heaters are very important. Thankfully it gets warn enough in the tunnels to not really need them, but on open cuts and the elevated structures, you can get freezing rain or sleet built up, and the flanges can ride over the packed ice, potentially causing a derailment, but at the very least delivering a jarring ride. I believe resistive heating strips could work on trouble spots, but it isn't a large scale solution. At the end, i'd rather be on a train stuck in a blizzard than an automobile. - A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainmaster5 Posted February 22, 2011 Share #22 Posted February 22, 2011 It also must be noted that the contact shoes on older equipment were larger and heavier than the "current collectors" on NTT equipment. An obstruction like ice hitting a current collector is likely to snap the collector off while the older contact shoe would likely destroy the obstruction first. I think our resident car restorers can probably understand my point AND explain it better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INDman Posted February 23, 2011 Share #23 Posted February 23, 2011 It also must be noted that the contact shoes on older equipment were larger and heavier than the "current collectors" on NTT equipment. An obstruction like ice hitting a current collector is likely to snap the collector off while the older contact shoe would likely destroy the obstruction first. I think our resident car restorers can probably understand my point AND explain it better. The "current collector" scraper shoes DO snap off when they hit ice on the 3rd rail. That's why my friend at control got pissed when ENY did use the R42s as snow fighters on the line. A SMEE with scraper shoes will clear the line while an NTT will just create more problems. One of the big problems they had during the major snow storms was that the NTTs would lose contact as the shoes when up and over ice instead of under or thru like the older shoes do. Plus when i walked thru the barn at CIY last month, I saw that CED got cute and was welding strips of steel to some shoes. I would have been shocked to see the strips still on the shoe by the time the train came off the yard lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubwayGuy Posted February 23, 2011 Share #24 Posted February 23, 2011 It also must be noted that the contact shoes on older equipment were larger and heavier than the "current collectors" on NTT equipment. An obstruction like ice hitting a current collector is likely to snap the collector off while the older contact shoe would likely destroy the obstruction first. I think our resident car restorers can probably understand my point AND explain it better. Indeed you are right about that. The heavier older style shoes were more durable in every conceivable way than the newer, smaller current collectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO man Posted March 17, 2011 Share #25 Posted March 17, 2011 Currently Transit has a Federal grant to install remote controlled Third Rail Heaters. The grant runs out around the end of the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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