A Small Question About Switches And Connections In Our Subway.

[EE Broadway Local]

Is it possible: 1) For a train to reach Manhattan at Hoyt-Schermerhorn Streets, 2) For an or an train to run to Coney Island via the Culver Line, 3) For a train to run via Lexington local or a or train to run via Broadway local, 4) For a or train to run to Rockaway Parkway or an train to run to Jamaica Center

If so, which switches/connections would be used and are there other odd routings that could be created?

[NX Express]

Check the track maps out first.:tup:

[R44 CNG]

I'm going to guess

 

1) No

2) Yes (W4th St, Along Queens Blvd)

3) Yes/No (Using the old South Ferry tracks...If its still there)

4) Yes (Broadway Junction switches)

[TheArr]

2. Yes, there's also switches just north of Jay St-Metrotech

[CTK246]

1. No.

2. Yes, via W 4 St Connection.

3. No.

4. Yes, there is a track switch at ENY.

[MikeGerald]

It is not possible: 1) For a G-train to reach Manhattan at Hoyt-Schermerhorn Streets, there are no switches between the A and C train tracks, and the G train tracks fore or aft of that station.

 

It is possible for A, C or E train to run to Coney Island via the Culver Line, this can be done at two locations. The C and E trains share track switches with the F and M trains just south of the West 4th Street station. The C and E trains can travel along the F-train route to Coney Island. The second location is Jay Street-MetroTech-Borough Hall, where there are switches between the A and C tracks, and the F train tracks. The A and C trains (and E trains diverted to Brooklyn) can use the F-tracks to Coney Island. While such a move can be done, such moves are un-usual.

 

Is it possible for a #1 train to run via Lexington local or a #6 or train to run via Broadway local, the answer is both yes and no. The "yes" answer: when the original South Ferry station is used, trains from either the Westside or Lexington Avenue lines can access the switches for the other line. In the case of #6 trains they would be switched to the "expresss tracks" just north of the Brooklyn Bridge station. The "no" answer is that the original South Ferry station is closed to regular passenger traffic, and the new South Ferry station can not be accessed by Lexington Avenue trains.

 

It is possible for a J or Z train to run to Rockaway Parkway, the terminal of the L train, via track switches at the Broadway Junction station complex. This pathway was one of the original pathways of the Canarsie line, before the current subway line to 14th Street was built.

 

It is possible for an L train to run to Jamaica Center, from the Canarsie terminal, taking the switch pathway along the J and Z line to Essex Street, taking the switch pathway for the current M-train (the old K/KK pathway), to the Sixth Avenue line, using either the 53rd or 63rd Street tunnels to Queens Blvd, and then following the E-train switch pathways to the Archer Avenue stations.

 

There is a book called, Tracks Of The NYC Subway, and track maps at the NYCSubway.ORG website that are very helpful.

 

Mike

[Rell]

Is it possible: 1) For a train to reach Manhattan at Hoyt-Schermerhorn Streets,

2) For an or an train to run to Coney Island via the Culver Line,

3) For a train to run via Lexington local or a or train to run via Broadway local,

4) For a or train to run to Rockaway Parkway or an train to run to Jamaica Center

If so, which switches/connections would be used and are there other odd routings that could be created?

 

1. Well the uptown can go to Manhattan via the 6th Av after Bergen St., by going toward Jay St-MetroTech instead of Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts.

If you meant to Manhattan via 8th Av, it'd have to go via past Bergen St, then switch to the track after Jay St-MetroTech.

 

2. Yes, after High St-Brooklyn Br, there's a switch (that I mentioned with to 8 Av) to the . But switching like that would likely cause major delays.

 

3. No. There's only three connections between 7th Av/B'way and Lex.

First is at 149th-Grand Concourse in the Bronx, which is how (2)'s run via Lex and (5)'s run via 7th during G.O's.

Second is in Brooklyn, between Atlantic Terminal-Pacific St and Nevins St.

Third is between the pre-2009 South Ferry and Bowling Green, but the doesn't run to Bowling Green normally, and (5)'s to Bowling Green would interfere with that.

 

4a. Yes, via switches at Broadway Junction.

4b. Yes, via switches at Broadway Junction. But an to Jamaica Ctr-Parsons/Archer wouldn't be able to go back to Canarsie-Rockaway Pwy because there's no switch in that direction

 

I've only used track maps and previous knowledge - Note that just because there's a track connection doesn't mean it's sensible or actually possible.

(i.e. there's a track connection at Queensboro Plz , but (N)'s can't theoretically run to Flushing.)

[Rell]

It is possible for an L train to run to Jamaica Center, from the Canarsie terminal, taking the switch pathway along the J and Z line to Essex Street, taking the switch pathway for the current M-train (the old K/KK pathway), to the Sixth Avenue line, using either the 53rd or 63rd Street tunnels to Queens Blvd, and then following the E-train switch pathways to the Archer Avenue stations.

 

In theory, couldn't the just go to Jamaica Center via the connection @ B'way Jct to the uptown which go to Jamaica Center on another level than the but the same station?

[Grand Concourse]

The only way the can get to Jamaica Center [without backtracking - basically it'll have to be the upper level of JC], would be to go thru the Chrystie St connection and then thru QB via the - as Mike stated.

 

Otherwise, if the train were to reverse direction, a train can go from Canarsie to JC lower level. But that's not really practical.

[MikeGerald]

4a. Yes, via switches at Broadway Junction.

4b. Yes, via switches at Broadway Junction. But an to Jamaica Ctr-Parsons/Archer wouldn't be able to go back to Canarsie-Rockaway Pwy because there's no switch in that direction.

 

--------

 

At the Broadway Junction (Eastern Parkway) station, it is possible (and has been possible for decades) for L trains leaving the Atlantic Avenue station to be switched to what is now called the J and Z tracks in the Manhattan bound direction. Such a train would arrive on the J/Z Manhattan bound local track at Broadway Junction, with further switching available upon leaving the station in the Manhattan bound direction. This is pathway is one of the "loop like tracks" that exists near that station, and was one of the original pathways of Canarsie bound trains BEFORE the building of the SUBWAY section of the 14th Street line - meaning all of the stations from 14th Street/8 Avenue to Bushwick Avenue.

 

At the Broadway Junction (Eastern Parkway) station, from the J/Z track level platform it is possible (and has been possible for decades) for Canarsie bound trains to be switched to the L-train track, via a right-side switch immediately upon leaving the station from the Queens-bound local track. This track is the reason why the Manhattan bound L-train platform is "split" at the eastern most edge at what we now call the Broadway Junction station. This used to be the path of Canarsie trains BEFORE the building of the SUBWAY section of the 14th Street line - meaning all of the stations from 14th Street/8 Avenue to Bushwick Avenue.

 

The L-train's connection to the J and Z tracks at Broadway Junction (as well the track connections to the Broadway-East New York train yards) is the only track connection that the L-line has to the rest of the subway system. This relative isolation from the rest of the transit system was one of the reasons why the computer based train control - CBTC - was installed on the L-train. Unlike the Queensboro Plaza station, where the #7 line has only one track switch connection to what we now call the N-tracks, and only in the Queens bound direction -- the similar situation with the L-train at Broadway Junction (East New York) has always allowed travel in BOTH directions.

 

So yes, a train that left the Canarsie terminal, traveling along the J/Z tracks to Manhattan for further switching to somewhere, on its return trip - can indeed return to the Canarsie terminal.

 

Mike

[MikeGerald]

Please note that during the period before 1977-8, before the Bowling Green station was under renovation, and when the South Ferry Shuttle operated - Number 5 and 6 trains regularly traveled on weekends, and during the late nights to and from the South Ferry station - see older train maps.

 

It was near the completion of the renovation of the Bowling Green when the MTA decided to dis-continue the South Ferry Shuttle. Thus the then new South Ferry Shuttle platform at that station while complete has never seen any service, and its stairway entrance has been closed off.

 

Prior to that happening, on a regular basis, both # and # trains traveled to / from South Ferry. The traveled to South Ferry after the evening rush hours weekdays, and all of the time weekends. The traveled to South Ferry during the midnight hours both weeknights and weekends.

 

The really interesting part is that the South Ferry station for the shuttle trains (the inner platform) only had door openings for the center door of each train car, which is why the South Ferry Shuttle train itself had to be a specially modified subway car. The two South Ferry stations were treated as separate stations without any ability for riders to transfer from one to the other, even though their tracks were side by side. Each station had their own separate fare control areas and entrances/exits.

 

In order to allow regular and trains to travel to South Ferry, these trains had to use the outer platform, the platform used by <1> trains. Thus on the weekends and during the midnight hours - there was a rare transfer opportunity for riders to travel to either the eastside or the westside from the same platform track in Manhattan.

 

These days the old South Ferry stations are not in passenger service, but the MTA wanted the physical stations/tracks to be retained (even in light of the construction of the new <1> terminal) because they are only track connections in Manhattan between the east and west-side IRT lines. So yes, such train moves can be done, even if there are no passengers on the trains.

 

Mike

[Bonanza123d]

Please note that during the period before 1977-8, before the Bowling Green station was under renovation, and when the South Ferry Shuttle operated - Number 5 and 6 trains regularly traveled on weekends, and during the late nights to and from the South Ferry station - see older train maps.

 

It was near the completion of the renovation of the Bowling Green when the MTA decided to dis-continue the South Ferry Shuttle. Thus the then new South Ferry Shuttle platform at that station while complete has never seen any service, and its stairway entrance has been closed off.

 

Prior to that happening, on a regular basis, both # and # trains traveled to / from South Ferry. The traveled to South Ferry after the evening rush hours weekdays, and all of the time weekends. The traveled to South Ferry during the midnight hours both weeknights and weekends.

 

The really interesting part is that the South Ferry station for the shuttle trains (the inner platform) only had door openings for the center door of each train car, which is why the South Ferry Shuttle train itself had to be a specially modified subway car. The two South Ferry stations were treated as separate stations without any ability for riders to transfer from one to the other, even though their tracks were side by side. Each station had their own separate fare control areas and entrances/exits.

 

In order to allow regular and trains to travel to South Ferry, these trains had to use the outer platform, the platform used by <1> trains. Thus on the weekends and during the midnight hours - there was a rare transfer opportunity for riders to travel to either the eastside or the westside from the same platform track in Manhattan.

 

These days the old South Ferry stations are not in passenger service, but the MTA wanted the physical stations/tracks to be retained (even in light of the construction of the new <1> terminal) because they are only track connections in Manhattan between the east and west-side IRT lines. So yes, such train moves can be done, even if there are no passengers on the trains.

 

Mike

 

Good point. I didn't know they would keep the older trackage. But i think they should use the area for a loop station for the . And have a transfer available to the and . I am wondering if the R142s can handle the Platform extenders that SF is famous for.

[MikeGerald]

The usage of the South Ferry station, and the # are a problematic combination, that has been recognized for decades.

 

In the construction of the South Ferry station, and the Brooklyn tunnel tracks to Atlantic Avenue, the operators of the IRT in 1905 noticed that there was a heavy amount of traffic to and from Brooklyn. In fact so much Brooklyn traffic that that whole complements of trains were needed to just to service Brooklyn, while South Ferry had much lighter traffic loads in comparison. Thus the South Ferry shuttle was born and built - to handle that traffic, while allowing the express trains to travel to and from Brooklyn. This imbalance of traffic noted in 1905 has not changed with the addition of the Lexington Avenue or Seventh Avenue segments to the IRT subway lines. Brooklyn has heavy traffic needs and requirements, especially during the rush hours.

 

Thus for the most part over the history of the eastside lines, Lexington Avenue express trains travel to/from Brooklyn MOST of the time, and during always during the rush hours. This allowed the South Ferry shuttle to handle the folks traveling to/from the Staten Island Ferry. This basic pattern lasted until 1978, when the shuttle was discontinued, although by that time, many daytime # trains terminated at Bowling Green - really South Ferry without taking on riders.

 

Why not allow # trains to open their doors to take on riders at the old South Ferry shuttle station? Simple - only the train operator knows when the train will move - yes, the headways between trains! Unlike the # where uptown trains spend little time on the City Hall loop tracks, the # trains can spend a good amount of time on the South Ferry loop tracks before returning to service. Now during the rush hours with most # trains heading to/from Brooklyn, the riders waiting at the South Ferry # platform could find themselves waiting a very long time for service.

 

Since many South Ferry bound folks can walk to the ferry from Bowling Green (since the boats often run 30 and 60 minutes apart) it is speedier to just walk the distance.

 

Mike

[NX Express]

The only way the can get to Jamaica Center [without backtracking - basically it'll have to be the upper level of JC], would be to go thru the Chrystie St connection and then thru QB via the - as Mike stated.

It COULD end up at the lower level:

via Jamaica Manhattan-bound ->Nassau SB -> Montague Tunnel SB -> 4 Av -> Coney Island -> Brighton -> Montague Tunnel NB -> Nassau NB -> via the to Jamaica Center lower level.

 

However, that is extremely impractical.

[TwoTimer]

It COULD end up at the lower level:

via Jamaica Manhattan-bound ->Nassau SB -> Montague Tunnel SB -> 4 Av -> Coney Island -> Brighton -> Montague Tunnel NB -> Nassau NB -> via the to Jamaica Center lower level.

 

However, that is extremely impractical.

 

lol, really lol

[Kacie Jane]

Maybe 70(EE) can correct me if I'm wrong here, but the way I was reading the original post, the answer to #3 is definitively no.

 

Running a via the Lexington Avenue local would mean running a train from 242nd to South Ferry via Lexington. Sure you can get a train over to the east side once you get to South Ferry (actually Rector Street now), but by that time the train's already completed its run, plus it'll be pointing the opposite direction and won't be able to get back to 242nd.

 

Also, I was assuming that the second part of #4 meant can you run an train from 14th St/8th Avenue to Jamaica Center, and I don't think those switches exist at Broadway Junction.

[3rd Avenue El]

yes to the L line question. the l train can go to jamaica at broadway junction using the manhattan bound switch. the L train would then turn onto the nassau street line go all the way to essex street. once at essex street the L turns onto the m line taking the m local tracks all the way to 71st continental once there the L takes the local access track to join the f line at 75th avenue then going on the f local to van wyck. once at vanwyck the L turns onto the e tracks all the way to jamica center. then th train would repeat the process back to canarsie in the opposite direction. you guys missed a vital switch at broadway junction and essex street were the m breaks off to forest hills. look at these track maps:

 

images.nycsubway.org/trackmap/detail-71-cont.png

 

images.nycsubway.org/trackmap/detail-chrystie.png

 

images.nycsubway.org/trackmap/detail-eny.png

 

for the rest evrybody else got them im not gonna guess.