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BrooklynBus

Sheepshead Bay needs to start caring about its bus service

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A few comments about your latest blog... I used to live in Sheepshead Bay over by Homecrest Avenue near the 12th street bridge and attended the old IS 43 and then Sheepshead Bay HS thereafter. A good friend of mine from junior high school lived in Gravesend and relied on the B4 to get to and from school. I can remember using the B4 to visit him and also when traveling from Sheepshead Bay HS back home. This was back in the 90s. At that time the bus ran maybe every 15 minutes supposedly. The problem with the line is it was always sort of the bus that folks used if it showed up. Instead you'd opt for the B36 which at that time ran a bit more frequent and was a tad more reliable since the frequencies were better. The B4 IMO has always been run terribly. It reminds me of some routes on Staten Island that the (MTA) runs poorly. The B4 was always hit and miss. A bus would go MIA or on occasion you'd have two of them running together, which was odd especially since they generally ran 15 - 20 minutes apart. I always found it strange that their frequencies were so far apart. When you think about that time the (MTA) wasn't doing terribly fiscally and most other routes had decent frequencies, so that goes to show you the attitude that the (MTA) had towards the line even 15 years ago. I used to hangout with a Puerto Rican/German B/O who I was really cool with and I'd ride with him from Sheepshead Bay all the way to Bay Ridge. The bus never picked up heavily until you got near Bensonhurst, whether I was riding with him or hanging out to go to Bay Ridge. It also seemed to be a bit more reliable in Bay Ridge as well for some reason the times that I would hang out in Bay Ridge and come back to Sheepshead Bay via the B4.

 

I think quite frankly think the (MTA) never really cared enough about the line and since folks felt like other alternatives existed they would use those rather than the B4 unless it was there already. Despite all of that the bus was needed. It took the load off of the B36 and it also served an area that currently has no bus service along Neptune Avenue and Emmons. I think one problem for the B4 is that it served some areas of Sheepshead Bay that one could call more car reliant. Most of the folks that used the B4 back in the day were elderly folks. Later on when more development came back to the bay, I did notice that ridership increased and it seemed to particularly increase when Jackie Gleason took over the line. I think Ulmer Park didn't help with the line. They had very poor oversight on the line, very much like the X10. Never saw a dispatcher around which allowed B/Os to pretty much do as they pleased. So in sum, I feel like folks had a love/hate relationship with the line. I certainly wasn't a big fan of it. I can remember many days back in junior high school having to go somewhere and freezing my @ss off in the cold waiting for what seemed like an eternity for that bus.

 

As for Senator Golden, to his credit, I think he would like to do something, but he doesn't have folks going crazy like he did over the X27/X28. When you have communities of people that are pissed off about their service, it makes it easier to make the case to have service restored, but the community doesn't seem to care enough to get something going, OR they may not know who to complain to. That's another problem. People want to complain but often times they don't know who to complain to. I think you should investigate and do a study if possible to get feedback from riders on the B36 and see how many of them used to use the B4 or how many of them think that service on the B36 should be improved. I will say that I see a lot more congestion along Emmons Avenue with the B4 gone now.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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As for Senator Golden, to his credit, I think he would like to do something, but he doesn't have folks going crazy like he did over the X27/X28. When you have communities of people that are pissed off about their service, it makes it easier to make the case to have service restored, but the community doesn't seem to care enough to get something going, OR they may not know who to complain to. That's another problem. People want to complain but often times they don't know who to complain to. I think you should investigate and do a study if possible to get feedback from riders on the B36 and see how many of them used to use the B4 or how many of them think that service on the B36 should be improved. I will say that I see a lot more congestion along Emmons Avenue with the B4 gone now.

 

I agree. That's why I didn't mention Golden by name in the article. I didn't want to paint him as the bad guy. I suggested e-mail because that is the easiest way to complain. I also asked people to be specific in their complaints so the MTA can actually take some action if they wanted to. Don't need a B 36 study. Seen many negative complaints about it although personally I usually have been lucky with it until Monday when I waited over 20 minutes and there we no bus in site for the next 7 minutes. I was waiting at Homecrest. I walked over to the B68 instead because I was going to Coney Island and one was coming or shoud I say 2 were coming.

 

Car usage does have something to do with lack of complaining. People now just call up their spouse for a pick up or use many of the car services lined up. That's where the study is needed. How many of them are going to the B4 service area?

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The comments presented on this thread are right on the money involving the

B/4. I remember this route when it ran from 25th Avenue to Bay Ridge prior to the 1978 changes. I worked in Bay Ridge during the summers of 1967,1968 and 1969 and I worked between the B/34 (B/1 now B/64) and the B/4. I took the B/34 home as it offered more frequent service (every 7-8 minutes) with additional service to 13th Avenue during rush hours. The B/4 had a headway of 12 minutes during rush hours and every 16 -17 minutes during non-rush hours.

 

I attended the hearing on the Southwest Brooklyn Bus Route changes in July 1978 and presented arguments against many of the proposed changes. The problem here was a desire to change everything at one time and there was intense opposition to the changes but not from this area. If my recollection is correct, the Committee for Better Transit presented a proposal for the B/4 to operate via Stillwell, Surf, West 8th Street, Shell Road, Avenue Z, Ocean Parkway, Neptune Avenue and on to Knapp Street following the old B/21 route.

 

I took the B/4 from Fifth Avenue to Sheepshead Bay on and off for about 9 months after the changes took effect and for the most part I found myself the only person on the bus from about Kings Highway to Sheepshead Bay and this was in the PM rush hour (from 4:30 PM - 5:15 PM) during the week. If I missed the 4:42 bus, I would wait a half hour for the next one. I see that this has not changed since that time.

 

As far as the other routes and their problems are concerned, the less said the better.

 

There is another issue here and that is our district is divided politically as Senator Golden's district reaches into part of Sheepshead Bay as does Senator Kruger's district. It is the same thing with the State Assembly and the City Council. I am in agreement that Sheepshead Bay is not active when it comes to transit matters and I have seen it and heard it especially when it comes to this subject. If this community would become involved in transit matters (and in numbers), it would help to restore the B/4 service and improve service on all the other lines that serve this area.

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- The B4 travels along Bay ridge pkwy, which is a dead draw.... worse, headways have been lengthened along that route, on top of the fact that it doesn't serve Sheepshead all times of the day... which are both huge minuses.....

- The B44 takes you to the Junction (and points north, of course)... and let's face it, the bulk of the B44 usage w/i Sheepshead Bay go to Sheepshead HS kids, and patrons of the nostrand houses (projects) seeking service to the IRT (again, and points north)... Which aren't the same people whose voices will make an impact/hold any political backing/clout....

- The B36 takes you to Coney Island via CIH... and it is no accident that Sheepshead bay patrons (sans the folks that live in the projects I'm referring to here) utilize this route over the B4 & the 44.... Problem w/ the 36 is, it only serves nostrand av, and doesn't serve Sheepshead like the (prior) B4 did......

 

 

I mention the above to say this...

 

I really do think that Sheepshead patrons are passive about bus service b/c quite frankly.... the buses don't take them to too many places where they need/want to go, outside of the subway station (brighton line) & CIH..... I'm not excusing their lack of assertiveness, but I can see where feelings of dejection/let down over the course of years could/would arise.... Which explains the prevalence of taxi usage down there.....

 

In plain english, the MTA isn't satisfying their needs..... Which large in part, is a planning issue....

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There is an important need for a clarification here: The B/36 runs north of the Belt Parkway and the B/4 runs south of the Belt Parkway. There are only two places where there is is an opening: Nostrand Avenue and Bedford Avenue. The B/36 serves a much larger catchment area which is two blocks north and south of Avenue Z and at least 3-4 blocks east and west of Nostrand Avenue. The B/4 has a limited catchment area or the one block between Shore Parkway and Emmons Avenue. This is the reason that the B/4 has limited service as it does not have the number of riders has it has a very limited catchment area as compared with the B/36.

 

The analysis of this subject has been great on the part of all the writers.

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I attended the hearing on the Southwest Brooklyn Bus Route changes in July 1978 and presented arguments against many of the proposed changes. The problem here was a desire to change everything at one time and there was intense opposition to the changes but not from this area. If my recollection is correct, the Committee for Better Transit presented a proposal for the B/4 to operate via Stillwell, Surf, West 8th Street, Shell Road, Avenue Z, Ocean Parkway, Neptune Avenue and on to Knapp Street following the old B/21 route.

 

 

 

I only remember the single hearing at 1 Police Plaza. Is that the one you are referring to? I don't think more than a dozen people attended and I only remember about three speakers total. I don't recall any intense opposition.

 

I don't recall a Committee for Better Transit Proposal but you could be right. The Department of City Planning Proposal was to route the B4 down Stillwell to Coney Island Terminal and a B21 from there along Neptune and Emmons detouring to the Sheepshead Bay Station, but the MTA wanted to run a through route (B4) to Sheepshead Bay. DCP Offered to combine our proposed B4 and 21, but the MTA insisted on running it on the north side of Coney Island Yard along 86th Street.

 

- The B4 travels along Bay ridge pkwy, which is a dead draw.... worse, headways have been lengthened along that route, on top of the fact that it doesn't serve Sheepshead all times of the day... which are both huge minuses.....

- The B44 takes you to the Junction (and points north, of course)... and let's face it, the bulk of the B44 usage w/i Sheepshead Bay go to Sheepshead HS kids, and patrons of the nostrand houses (projects) seeking service to the IRT (again, and points north)... Which aren't the same people whose voices will make an impact/hold any political backing/clout....

- The B36 takes you to Coney Island via CIH... and it is no accident that Sheepshead bay patrons (sans the folks that live in the projects I'm referring to here) utilize this route over the B4 & the 44.... Problem w/ the 36 is, it only serves nostrand av, and doesn't serve Sheepshead like the (prior) B4 did......

 

 

I mention the above to say this...

 

I really do think that Sheepshead patrons are passive about bus service b/c quite frankly.... the buses don't take them to too many places where they need/want to go, outside of the subway station (brighton line) & CIH..... I'm not excusing their lack of assertiveness, but I can see where feelings of dejection/let down over the course of years could/would arise.... Which explains the prevalence of taxi usage down there.....

 

In plain english, the MTA isn't satisfying their needs..... Which large in part, is a planning issue....

 

Okay. What needs would you say are not being served? (See my following comment?)

 

There is an important need for a clarification here: The B/36 runs north of the Belt Parkway and the B/4 runs south of the Belt Parkway. There are only two places where there is is an opening: Nostrand Avenue and Bedford Avenue. The B/36 serves a much larger catchment area which is two blocks north and south of Avenue Z and at least 3-4 blocks east and west of Nostrand Avenue. The B/4 has a limited catchment area or the one block between Shore Parkway and Emmons Avenue. This is the reason that the B/4 has limited service as it does not have the number of riders has it has a very limited catchment area as compared with the B/36.

 

The analysis of this subject has been great on the part of all the writers.

 

Agree. That's why I believe it would make sense to extend the B4 up Knapp Street to Avenue U and to Kings Plaza on weekends. It wouldn't take more than 7 minutes to get to Avenue U and it would open up the route to a whole new catchment area of 6 story apartment buildings. Not only would it bring riders to Kings Plaza, but Flatlands residents to the UA Theater in Sheepshead Bay, the only one in the entire southern Brooklyn.

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Okay. What needs would you say are not being served? (See my following comment?)

 

Commercialism/Shopping/Leisure (or w/e other synonym you deem it all).... that little stretch along sheepshead bay rd. by the subway & 86th st short of the el' aint cuttin it, the way I see it....

 

The MTA would never go for this, but I get the sense said folks would benefit/be satisfied from having service pan across 86th st w/o having to xfer to the B1.... Sheepshead bay to Bay Ridge via 86th, av z, etc., en route to shore/emmons to/from knapp st.... of course, w/ increased B4 service than what currently is....

 

 

As for Bay ridge pkwy, a new route would be formed either towards Coney Island or towards kings hwy/CI av area.... such a route would run similar to how the Q103 route does out in queens....

 

....all boils down to Modernization

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Commercialism/Shopping/Leisure (or w/e other synonym you deem it all).... that little stretch along sheepshead bay rd. by the subway & 86th st short of the el' aint cuttin it, the way I see it....

 

The MTA would never go for this, but I get the sense said folks would benefit/be satisfied from having service pan across 86th st w/o having to xfer to the B1.... Sheepshead bay to Bay Ridge via 86th, av z, etc., en route to shore/emmons to/from knapp st.... of course, w/ increased B4 service than what currently is....

 

 

As for Bay ridge pkwy, a new route would be formed either towards Coney Island or towards kings hwy/CI av area.... such a route would run similar to how the Q103 route does out in queens....

 

....all boils down to Modernization

 

I'd have to see the whole thing worked out. They are thinking about SBS along 86th Street Bay Parkway to Kings Highway.

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I'd have to see the whole thing worked out. They are thinking about SBS along 86th Street Bay Parkway to Kings Highway.

 

They definitely need SBS service going from West to East in Southern Brooklyn. For someone going from Sheepshead Bay to Bay Ridge there are very few options. The B4 is a long and annoying commute. Taking the (Q) back to Coney Island and then transferring for the (N) to the (R) is also ridiculous. 2 transfers just to get from one part of Southern Brooklyn to another? :mad: I've always wondered myself why they didn't have some sort of Limited Stop bus or something.

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My compliments to all the writers on this thread as not only are the suggestions well thought out and based on the economic reality, each of these suggestions presented would increase ridership and revenue.

 

Just a couple of points: The meeting that I attended involving the Southwest Brooklyn idea was in July 1978 and was held at Our Lady of Grace Church on Avenue W. Community Board 15 was holding the hearing and they approved the TA's proposal. I made a verbal presentation and submitted written comments as well.

 

We need a limited bus operation from Bay Ridge to Sheepshead Bay as it makes no sense to ride the Q to Coney Island then the N to 59th Street and then the R back to 86th Street. When i worked on Staten Island prior to my retirement, that was the route I took after getting off the B/3 if I did not take the B/64 as if the connections were right, I would catch either the early S/79 or S/53. At that time of the morning if I missed the N train, it would be 20 minutes and I missed the R at 59th Street back to 86th Street which means i was late for work as I had to take the S/79 and the S/74 toward Tottenville or an additional 1 1/2 hour trip. The afternoon was no better as if I did not see a B/64, I would reverse the route and hope and pray that I could find a B/36 at Sheesphead Bay.

 

Let me extend my fullest cooperation to whomever is working on this project as it not only benefits this community but other communities as well.

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My compliments to all the writers on this thread as not only are the suggestions well thought out and based on the economic reality, each of these suggestions presented would increase ridership and revenue.

 

Just a couple of points: The meeting that I attended involving the Southwest Brooklyn idea was in July 1978 and was held at Our Lady of Grace Church on Avenue W. Community Board 15 was holding the hearing and they approved the TA's proposal. I made a verbal presentation and submitted written comments as well.

 

We need a limited bus operation from Bay Ridge to Sheepshead Bay as it makes no sense to ride the Q to Coney Island then the N to 59th Street and then the R back to 86th Street. When i worked on Staten Island prior to my retirement, that was the route I took after getting off the B/3 if I did not take the B/64 as if the connections were right, I would catch either the early S/79 or S/53. At that time of the morning if I missed the N train, it would be 20 minutes and I missed the R at 59th Street back to 86th Street which means i was late for work as I had to take the S/79 and the S/74 toward Tottenville or an additional 1 1/2 hour trip. The afternoon was no better as if I did not see a B/64, I would reverse the route and hope and pray that I could find a B/36 at Sheesphead Bay.

 

Let me extend my fullest cooperation to whomever is working on this project as it not only benefits this community but other communities as well.

 

This is exactly why the MTA needs to do periodic origin / destination studies. to determine where the needs are and to shorten indirect commutes. You cannot get this type of information merely by counting passengers on various lines with no knowledge of trip times, and distances. But the MTA planners believe that is all that is sufficient. I would like to know which Planning schools they attended if any. Most likely they were business majors with no knowledge of Planning at all.

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This is exactly why the MTA needs to do periodic origin / destination studies. to determine where the needs are and to shorten indirect commutes. You cannot get this type of information merely by counting passengers on various lines with no knowledge of trip times, and distances. But the MTA planners believe that is all that is sufficient. I would like to know which Planning schools they attended if any. Most likely they were business majors with no knowledge of Planning at all.

 

Well I could ask some of my friends and find out what schools MTA planners went to.

 

 

In bold you just described my planning style. However my planning style revolves around highways and high speed travel.

 

Underlined that was the reason why I joined these forums the ridership data my friend fed to me wasn't enough to plan around.

 

Now you know why I have beef with many systems all over the tristate area including MTA and many other systems I used.

 

Ohh about B4 to knapp street and ave U I do not agree with that for 2 reasons 1 it makes the route look like a giant U shaped route I hate all U shaped lines period. Number 2 why not simply extend B74 over neptune ave and then emmons ave to knapp street then ave U or kings plaza done the B74 is short the B4 is long and unreliable extending it will make it worse. Let B74 pick up the slack and enhance connectivity.

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Well I could ask some of my friends and find out what schools MTA planners went to.

 

 

In bold you just described my planning style. However my planning style revolves around highways and high speed travel.

 

Underlined that was the reason why I joined these forums the ridership data my friend fed to me wasn't enough to plan around.

 

Now you know why I have beef with many systems all over the tristate area including MTA and many other systems I used.

 

Ohh about B4 to knapp street and ave U I do not agree with that for 2 reasons 1 it makes the route look like a giant U shaped route I hate all U shaped lines period. Number 2 why not simply extend B74 over neptune ave and then emmons ave to knapp street then ave U or kings plaza done the B74 is short the B4 is long and unreliable extending it will make it worse. Let B74 pick up the slack and enhance connectivity.

 

Although it would be a straight shot along Marine Park, I personally don't agree with sending the B4 (or the B36, as others suggested in the past) to kings plaza, either.... That isn't to say it's a bad idea.....

What I will say though is, the B4's unreliability has to do w/ how infrequent it runs more than anything....

 

God knows what you're talkin about with a "giant U shaped route", but regardless of what a route looks like on a map, should never be a deterrent to where an actual bus should travel on an actual street..... Sometimes road conditions (and street permissions; i.e. one way eastbound, one way westbound, etc) don't allow for a straight routing.....

 

That said, extending the B74 to kings plaza will make that route no different for coney island folks simply wanting the subway.... having it use neptune -> emmons, and knapp would make that one dead route..... It wouldn't benefit the masses that reside in that area of the borough.... Why do you think the B36, B68, and the B1 make the turns that they do down there.....

 

You claim to be this master planner, and fail to consider the most basic things.....

I don't think you know what your "planning style" is; s*** tends to change with every discussion you partake in !

 

But wait, it gets better..... In a recent thread, you blurt out that you don't consider blocks, but areas instead..... Clearly not showing what you say you supposedly consider when planning..... You're no different than the MTA when it comes to pure & unadulterated incompetence in that department....

 

^^ perfect example of that.... suggesting sending B74's to Kings Plaza at the expense of coney island riders... Again I ask, what would be the difference for a CI rider in wanting to take a B36 or a B74 if that's the case?

 

BrooklynBus' suggestion of sending the B4 to Kings Plaza on weekends was at least an attempt to bring folks out in Sheepshead to a major commercial/shopping area (which the B4 outright, lacks).....

 

Good grief.... Maybe it's just me...

 

 

The General.... signing off.....

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Although it would be a straight shot along Marine Park, I personally don't agree with sending the B4 (or the B36, as others suggested in the past) to kings plaza, either.... That isn't to say it's a bad idea.....

What I will say though is, the B4's unreliability has to do w/ how infrequent it runs more than anything....

 

God knows what you're talkin about with a "giant U shaped route", but regardless of what a route looks like on a map, should never be a deterrent to where an actual bus should travel on an actual street..... Sometimes road conditions (and street permissions; i.e. one way eastbound, one way westbound, etc) don't allow for a straight-forward routing.....

 

That said, extending the B74 to kings plaza will that route no different for coney island folks simply wanting the subway.... having it use neptune <-> emmons, and knapp would make that one dead route..... It wouldn't benefit the masses that reside in that part of the borough.... Why do you think the B36, B68, and the B1 make the turns that they do in that same general area....

 

You claim to be this master planner, and fail to consider the most basic things..... I don't think you know what your "planning style" is, as it tends to change with every discussion you partake in !

 

But wait, it gets better..... In a recent thread, you blurt out that you don't consider blocks, but areas instead..... Clearly not showing what you say you supposedly consider when planning..... You're no different than the MTA when it comes to pure & unadulterated incompetence in that department....

 

^^ perfect example of that.... suggesting sending B74's to Kings Plaza at the expense of coney island riders... What would be the difference for a CI rider in wanting to take a B36 or a B74 if that's the case?

 

BrooklynBus' suggestion of sending the B4 to Kings Plaza on weekends was at least an attempt to bring folks out in Sheepshead to a major commercial/shopping area (which the B4 outright, lacks).....

 

Good grief....

 

The General.... signing off.....

As dead as that area may be it's a direct routing is it not? If that won't work then try B74 on neptune to sheepshead bay road then replace the former routing of the B4 then continue onward to kings plaza. The line now has multiple purposes. And the B74's new routing would be more direct than the B36 and allows B36 to focus on improving the reliability of its current routing.

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As dead as that area may be it's a direct routing is it not?

 

If that won't work then try B74 on neptune to sheepshead bay road then replace the former routing of the B4 then continue onward to kings plaza. The line now has multiple purposes. And the B74's new routing would be more direct than the B36 and allows B36 to focus on improving the reliability of its current routing.

 

lol.... yes it is - But in sayin that, thanks for proving my point in my last post.....

 

What good is having a "direct" route if the riders have little to no use for it..... So yeah, again, leave the B74 serving Coney Island.... Why? You said it yourself - allow the B36 to focus on improving the reliability of the areas & sectors it currently serves..... The B74 takes a s*** load of riders off the B36's hands (and decreases their wait times for a physical bus, as well).....

 

....far as neptune av service.... The B4 didn't garner riders along Neptune !

So why would I believe the 74 would.....

 

Moving the B4 off Neptune.... that's the one thing I did agree w/ the MTA with

(although not for the purpose they decided to move the route onto Av Z for)....

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lol.... yes it is - But in sayin that, thanks for proving my point in my last post.....

 

What good is having a "direct" route if the riders have little to no use for it..... So yeah, again, leave the B74 serving Coney Island.... Why? You said it yourself - allow the B36 to focus on improving the reliability of the areas & sectors it currently serves..... The B74 takes a s*** load of riders off the B36's hands (and decreases their wait times for a physical bus, as well).....

 

....far as neptune av service.... The B4 didn't garner riders along Neptune !

So why would I believe the 74 would.....

 

Moving the B4 off Neptune.... that's the one thing I did agree w/ the MTA with

(although not for the purpose they decided to move the route onto Av Z for)....

 

Think of it as an express portion of the line like a B36 with speed direct to kings plaza from coney island and manhattan beach via transfers to B49 so as dead as the neptune segment is it's direct and get's it's ability by feeding other lines and running fast

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I think that we are in agreement on their planning department and this applies equally to the other agencies as well. Each one of us could recite a litany of changes that were made that seem to have no rhyme or reason whatsoever (See my comments on the B/64) and when it is bought to their attention, they make us look like we do not know what we are talking about when in reality, we seem to have a better handle on the problem as we ride (or in my case rode) these routes most of the time on a daily basis.

 

One of the threads asked for ideas to improve bus service and I raised the issue of checking the routes twice a year and then making a decision on the route. When you check a route twice a year, it fails to take into consideration that if it is a rainy day, some riders would stay home but would ride on a sunny day. The statistics are based on those two days, no matter what the weather condition was (or is) on those days.

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