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TriboroughBridge

Question regarding late night service

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What others have pointed out about the (4) being SRO in the overnights at times and the need some feel for the (2) to be an express in Manhattan during the overnights.

 

 

Pardon me for asking, but what is SRO?

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What others have pointed out about the (4) being SRO in the overnights at times and the need some feel for the (2) to be an express in Manhattan during the overnights.

 

Now to get back to the crux of things.

 

As someone who has actually operated the (2) and (4) overnight, has been in the tower in corridors where these services run overnight, and has ridden as a passenger quite often...

 

The (4) and (2) have nothing to do with each other (except in Brooklyn). In Brooklyn, one follows the other, it's not an evenly divided 10 minutes apart. On occasion, Mott Av tower will hold one service to connect with the other on the lower (or upper) level if they arrive close together at their respective station platforms.

 

The (4) being SRO has nothing to do with the west side. In fact it doesn't even get SRO (even on early Sat/Sun mornings) until you add the people at 59st coming up from the BMT, and continues until 161st in the Bronx. There are your usual crowds at 149-GC. And even though there are a few standees, its not packed like someone can't get in. Now whether one feels a passenger should stand overnights on a NYC subway train is an entirely different argument. If one feels its uncomfortable, then run more (4)'s overnight. Not run it express or any other "make it faster" proposition.

 

The (2) only becomes SRO once one adds the crowds at 42nd. It quickly loses some crowding as it goes through the residential UWS. It gains it back and then some by 149-GC with the late night Harlem and transfers from the (4). Again, if it's too uncomfortable, run a few more (2)'s. Not this whole one thing leads to another "run it express", or "run it express because it's too long"... well now the (3) has to run local, then the (3) has to run local below 42nd because the (2)'s express, and now the (3) has to go to Brooklyn since it's so close to Brooklyn once it goes down into lower Manhattan, and then now the (4) can remain express in Brooklyn because there's sufficient local service with the (2)(3). It is a unique service as it's the only west side service to head back to the east side and Bronx, and is the only one that runs local that does that (the (D) skips many stops in Manhattan with its thru-overnight express service). It also roughly cuts the Bronx in half, with roughly equal amount of real estate on either side, making most points in the Bx just a short taxi or bus ride away. People have no problem walking a crosstown block or two to access the (2) directly, and now one is making it less convenient for people just because the line is long and get standees after 42nd?

 

No one rides the (2) and (4) end to end except homeless and TA employees that "oh it has to be express because it's long".

 

Rant done.

 

PS: SRO = standing room only with all seats taken, not to be confused with "crush loaded", in which standing room is limited.

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Good points 2-timer. When economy improves maybe expand by a hour or so until 130am the (3) running to New Lots and the (4) express to Utica. However your(2-timer) comments proves once and for between 2-530am & until maybe 8am on Sunday mornings)that the (2) and (4) works fine alone as the only two eastern pwy coordior routes.

 

 

Now to get back to the crux of things.

 

As someone who has actually operated the (2) and (4) overnight, has been in the tower in corridors where these services run overnight, and has ridden as a passenger quite often...

 

The (4) and (2) have nothing to do with each other (except in Brooklyn). In Brooklyn, one follows the other, it's not an evenly divided 10 minutes apart. On occasion, Mott Av tower will hold one service to connect with the other on the lower (or upper) level if they arrive close together at their respective station platforms.

 

The (4) being SRO has nothing to do with the west side. In fact it doesn't even get SRO (even on early Sat/Sun mornings) until you add the people at 59st coming up from the BMT, and continues until 161st in the Bronx. There are your usual crowds at 149-GC. And even though there are a few standees, its not packed like someone can't get in. Now whether one feels a passenger should stand overnights on a NYC subway train is an entirely different argument. If one feels its uncomfortable, then run more (4)'s overnight. Not run it express or any other "make it faster" proposition.

 

The (2) only becomes SRO once one adds the crowds at 42nd. It quickly loses some crowding as it goes through the residential UWS. It gains it back and then some by 149-GC with the late night Harlem and transfers from the (4). Again, if it's too uncomfortable, run a few more (2)'s. Not this whole one thing leads to another "run it express", or "run it express because it's too long"... well now the (3) has to run local, then the (3) has to run local below 42nd because the (2)'s express, and now the (3) has to go to Brooklyn since it's so close to Brooklyn once it goes down into lower Manhattan, and then now the (4) can remain express in Brooklyn because there's sufficient local service with the (2)(3). It is a unique service as it's the only west side service to head back to the east side and Bronx, and is the only one that runs local that does that (the (D) skips many stops in Manhattan with its thru-overnight express service). It also roughly cuts the Bronx in half, with roughly equal amount of real estate on either side, making most points in the Bx just a short taxi or bus ride away. People have no problem walking a crosstown block or two to access the (2) directly, and now one is making it less convenient for people just because the line is long and get standees after 42nd?

 

No one rides the (2) and (4) end to end except homeless and TA employees that "oh it has to be express because it's long".

 

Rant done.

 

PS: SRO = standing room only with all seats taken, not to be confused with "crush loaded", in which standing room is limited.

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What always got me is the railfan insistance that the longer lines must run express at night for no other reason than the fact that they're long (whether its the (A)(F)(2)(4))

 

What's absolutely hilarious about this is that if you look at the schedule, the late night (2) local is actually 8 minutes faster from Wakefield to Flatbush than the express is during rush hour. The express is faster through Manhattan, but customers, (3)(5) traffic, etc. delay it elsewhere enough to more than make up for the time gained.

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Guys the periods in the 1960's and 1970's when there was midnight hour express service was not all it was cracked up to be. Plenty of times - it was just quicker to get a train that was moving rather than playing any "local or express" games. It was better to get a train that was moving, than about hoping for a "faster ride".

 

For example, I lived in the Bronx in the 1970's using the #6 line from Astor Place. During those times during the late nights, just catching the #6 was the goal. Trying to take the #6 from Astor Place to 14th Street, for the #4 express to 125th Street for a "faster ride" often simply meant that I was going to take the SAME #6 train that I saw and rode at Astor Place.

 

In addition there were plenty of times when the express or the local just missed each other by a minute, meaning that riders had to wait a whole 20 minutes for the next train. Often this was just after waiting up to 20 minutes to catch the first train.

 

Then there is the Manhattan-centric nature of the calls for express service. Notice that for decades riders of the Brooklyn section of the A-train, riders on the Brighton line, J-train, and other lines only had express service during the rush hour periods or day times. In the Bronx traditionally there was only express service during the rush hours, and often the same with the #7 line in Queens. Of course during the midnight hours - every line is all local in the "outer boroughs" (only 1 or 2 exceptions).

 

Yes, at nights there is the wish "for a fast ride home". It is a human nature wish to want to get to one's destination as quickly as possible, with the least amount of hassle as possible. Right now with the midnight services as all local for the majority of Manhattan, Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens - there is a kind of equality to the misery. The only express routes - the midnight-hour D-train, the all-time Q-train, and the F-train only along Queens Blvd. -- are often that way because it makes for a simpler operation of the trains - less manpower needed.

 

Making the subways simple at night - the midnights is a good goal.

 

Mike

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Guys the periods in the 1960's and 1970's when there was midnight hour express service was not all it was cracked up to be. Plenty of times - it was just quicker to get a train that was moving rather than playing any "local or express" games. It was better to get a train that was moving, than about hoping for a "faster ride".

 

For example, I lived in the Bronx in the 1970's using the #6 line from Astor Place. During those times during the late nights, just catching the #6 was the goal. Trying to take the #6 from Astor Place to 14th Street, for the #4 express to 125th Street for a "faster ride" often simply meant that I was going to take the SAME #6 train that I saw and rode at Astor Place.

 

In addition there were plenty of times when the express or the local just missed each other by a minute, meaning that riders had to wait a whole 20 minutes for the next train. Often this was just after waiting up to 20 minutes to catch the first train.

 

Then there is the Manhattan-centric nature of the calls for express service. Notice that for decades riders of the Brooklyn section of the A-train, riders on the Brighton line, J-train, and other lines only had express service during the rush hour periods or day times. In the Bronx traditionally there was only express service during the rush hours, and often the same with the #7 line in Queens. Of course during the midnight hours - every line is all local in the "outer boroughs" (only 1 or 2 exceptions).

 

Yes, at nights there is the wish "for a fast ride home". It is a human nature wish to want to get to one's destination as quickly as possible, with the least amount of hassle as possible. Right now with the midnight services as all local for the majority of Manhattan, Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens - there is a kind of equality to the misery. The only express routes - the midnight-hour D-train, the all-time Q-train, and the F-train only along Queens Blvd. -- are often that way because it makes for a simpler operation of the trains - less manpower needed.

 

Making the subways simple at night - the midnights is a good goal.

 

Mike

 

Also the 3 is express late nights. The R shuttle northbound is also 'express' skipping two stops if you count that.

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Well the (3) is express so it can turn at Times Sq and not bother any of the local service running alongside of it, and for no other reason. Also, the (R) has that small express run for the same reason, the train must be cleaned out at 36st before it can relay, and they do not want to bother the (D) and (N) going by on the local. There are times however (like Plan 4 - snowstorms) where the (R) has no choice but to go up the local track

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Well the (3) is express so it can turn at Times Sq and not bother any of the local service running alongside of it, and for no other reason.

 

The (3) is also express because the (1) and the (2) are already local, no sense on having 3 local lines late nights (except when it has to run local to 34th St at times). QB had this when the (G) was there and the (E) and (G) were local, while the (F) was express.

 

The rule for overnights, no more than 2 local services, if a 3rd service runs for any reason (barring certain GOs) it will run express.

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