Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[darkstar8983]

14 hours ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

They are in the "engineering stage" right now.

The project is partially funded; Biden's new budget proposal gives nearly another half billion

This and the Gateway project seem to be the 2 highest priority transit megaprojects right now, so unless something goes really wrong the next year or two (which is def possible, COVID prolly delayed start of SAS Phase II), we should see construction "soon".

One thing that sucks is the MTA really hasn't seem to have learned any lessons from phase 1; the project may near double in cost to Phase I despite much of the tunneling having already been completed and slightly less robust stations at 106th and 116th street.  My level of anger around this is quite extreme, because it seems like there are relatively "easy" steps that could be taken to just chop off at least 2 billion without a reduction to the actual infrastructure for passengers.

It does seem like both the MTA, the Governor, and other state politicians have a genuine interest in making this happen.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the tunnels there already in the zones that would be between the stations at 106 St and 116 St? I know that the building of Phase 1 included tail tracks for the to store four trains between rush hours (two trains per track), so that is already significantly less tunnel boring that needs to be done. just do the tunnel caverns (which I think in this case shouldn't be that deep since manhattan isn't at such a high elevation in this section). But I  guess it is also dependent on the population density and the sewage/gas/water main lines underground that contribute to station depth. 

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

11 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the tunnels there already in the zones that would be between the stations at 106 St and 116 St? I know that the building of Phase 1 included tail tracks for the to store four trains between rush hours (two trains per track), so that is already significantly less tunnel boring that needs to be done. just do the tunnel caverns (which I think in this case shouldn't be that deep since manhattan isn't at such a high elevation in this section). But I  guess it is also dependent on the population density and the sewage/gas/water main lines underground that contribute to station depth. 

Yes, and they plan on using those tunnels. Given how the MTA has been building lately, I suspect they'll be pretty extensive tail tracks past 125th which is a good thing, especially for the prospects of a 125th St Crosstown

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

Ok is there anything specific anyone would like me to bring up at the public hearing tmrw? I'm not the best public speaker, but looking at past public hearings, I think I'll be ok. Any comments will probably be falling on death ears anyways.

My main concerns I wanted to bring up were:

1. How will the MTA actually provide adequate service to the line during peak hours? (As I've brought up in this thread before)

2. Provisions - NYC subway is a larger subway network, and MTA not building provisions will just make it harder for my generation to address our transit needs (yes Imma try to play the young person card a bit while I still have it).

Sorry if I sound a bit off; I just got rejected from one of my "top colleges" but there's still a lot more to go, and I already have acceptance to Stony and Bing. I'll be ok.

Edited March 15, 2023 by ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ

[darkstar8983]

On 3/14/2023 at 8:14 PM, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

Ok is there anything specific anyone would like me to bring up at the public hearing tmrw? I'm not the best public speaker, but looking at past public hearings, I think I'll be ok. Any comments will probably be falling on death ears anyways.

My main concerns I wanted to bring up were:

1. How will the MTA actually provide adequate service to the line during peak hours? (As I've brought up in this thread before)

2. Provisions - NYC subway is a larger subway network, and MTA not building provisions will just make it harder for my generation to address our transit needs (yes Imma try to play the young person card a bit while I still have it).

Sorry if I sound a bit off; I just got rejected from one of my "top colleges" but there's still a lot more to go, and I already have acceptance to Stony and Bing. I'll be ok.

1. Congrats on acceptance to Stony and Bing. 

2. Your main concerns are really good.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

4 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

1. Congrats on acceptance to Stony and Bing. 

2. Your main concerns are really good.

Thank you!

Heres the video; I start at 1:05:45

I think I did good considering I wasn’t reading off a script, though I think I struggled with some redundancy and phrasing at times. Fun experience.

College admissions is generally an unfortunate process - no matter what someone is going to be unhappy and a lot of outcomes feel arbitrary.

Edited March 16, 2023 by ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

Forgot to mention this the other day, but one thing that was notable is they said the project was "almost entirely funded" and should break ground in early 2024. 

[CenSin]

On 3/16/2023 at 3:12 PM, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

Thank you!

Heres the video; I start at 1:05:45

I think I did good considering I wasn’t reading off a script, though I think I struggled with some redundancy and phrasing at times. Fun experience.

College admissions is generally an unfortunate process - no matter what someone is going to be unhappy and a lot of outcomes feel arbitrary.

Excellent public speaking skills. I’m impressed.

[Vulturious]

https://nypost.com/2023/03/27/mta-says-it-may-change-new-nyc-stations-after-post-expose/

Quote

 

MTA says it may change new designs on NYC subway stations after Post exposé

The MTA’s top boss said Monday the agency may change the designs of subway stations planned for East Harlem — after The Post revealed their excessive size, which has fueled the project’s massive cost.

A Post investigation found that the Metropolitan Transportation Authority’s current plans would build stations twice as long as the platforms needed to serve the Q train — part of a design decision that expert say contribute to the staggering $7 billion to $7.7 billion price tag for the Second Avenue Subway’s extension.

“We are going to use the design-build process to figure out ways in which we can adjust the design,” CEO Janno Lieber told the MTA board during a committee meeting at the agency’s headquarters in Manhattan, hours after The Post report.

“We can make it easier and faster to build,” Lieber said.

“We can’t change the labor rates in New York, we can’t change a lot of the other things that drive costs in New York,” he said. “But what we can change is using the creativity of the design and construction community to, in effect, improve upon what the [preliminary] design provides.”

Those improvements could include the overall design of the stations, which are set to be built at 106th, 116th and 125th streets, Lieber said.

Current plans call for stations that are 1,200 to 1,400 feet long, which is twice the length of the roughly 600-foot Q trains that will serve them and the needed platforms.

Experts said the flaw is a repeat of a design decision made during the construction of the first part of the Second Avenue subway through the Upper East Side that fueled the project’s record-breaking costs. The stations at 72nd, 86th and 96th streets are between 1,000 and 1,600 feet long.

As The Post reported, the MTA’s East Harlem designs stand in stark contrast to the stations built by the biggest transit systems in Europe — including those in London, Paris and Rome — where officials seek to minimize station size as much as possible to control costs and limit the disruptions of digs.

An apples-to-apples equivalent of building the Q-train’s East Harlem extension — based on what has been done in London, Paris or Rome — shows it could be done for between $2 billion and $2.3 billion, just a third of what the MTA expects to spend.

For example, officials in Paris squeezed a 410-foot platform into a 417-foot-long station cavern when they designed and built that new station directly in front of the apartment towers in the 13th District.

In London, the transit agency there fit a 400-foot platform into a 470-foot-long station cavern at the new Nine Elms station, which was built to fuel the redevelopment of a once-industrial part of the British capital.

 

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

On 3/28/2023 at 2:50 PM, Vulturious said:

https://nypost.com/2023/03/27/mta-says-it-may-change-new-nyc-stations-after-post-expose/

What sucks is that the physical platforms at these SAS stations aren't much over 600 feet, it's just the excessive mezzanines and the MTA insisting a lot of equipment is underground. 106th and 116th Street are going to be much lower ridership than the 3 existing SAS stations, plus Manhattan physically narrows between 96th and 106th; they don't need to be quite as robust.

 

Honestly, I feel like the Upper Mezzanines are large enough they could theoretically made into platforms with 2 side tracks (and it sucks all this but no clear provisions for express tracks).

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

A bit weird, but I just got an email back from someone at the MTA assuring me that the current plans call for a provision to the Bronx, but they don't specify if that means full tail tracks or something more modest. They also said for now, the MTA believes just the  will be sufficient but alternative service patterns may be looked into closer to opening. Didn't respond to any of the other concerns I brought up at the hearing, but still nice that someone took the time to respond back (though again seems weird it's a month after the fact). 

[Vulturious]

30 minutes ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

A bit weird, but I just got an email back from someone at the MTA assuring me that the current plans call for a provision to the Bronx, but they don't specify if that means full tail tracks or something more modest. They also said for now, the MTA believes just the  will be sufficient but alternative service patterns may be looked into closer to opening. Didn't respond to any of the other concerns I brought up at the hearing, but still nice that someone took the time to respond back (though again seems weird it's a month after the fact). 

Better late than never I guess, provisions these days usually have tail tracks or at least some sort of roadbed such as the provision from the 63 St line for a connection to the SAS, Archer Av on both BMT and IND platforms so hopefully they do build a provision.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

7 minutes ago, Vulturious said:

Better late than never I guess, provisions these days usually have tail tracks or at least some sort of roadbed such as the provision from the 63 St line for a connection to the SAS, Archer Av on both BMT and IND platforms so hopefully they do build a provision.

My guess is given all the cuts they've been making, they'll prolly do a basic trackbed provision and believe tail-tracks after 125th heading West will be sufficient for storage.

Edited April 12, 2023 by ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ

[CenSin]

1 hour ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

My guess is given all the cuts they've been making, they'll prolly do a basic trackbed provision and believe tail-tracks after 125th heading West will be sufficient for storage.

Knowing the MTA’s penchant for cutting, they’ll probably cut the tail tracks, leaving two nubs at the start of the 125 Street curve, and stash the trains on some express tracks whenever that starts existing. Those planned storage tracks at 14 Street are probably not happening either.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

21 minutes ago, CenSin said:

Knowing the MTA’s penchant for cutting, they’ll probably cut the tail tracks, leaving two nubs at the start of the 125 Street curve, and stash the trains on some express tracks whenever that starts existing. Those planned storage tracks at 14 Street are probably not happening either.

I just emailed them back to ask about provisions for express tracks - I'll let you know if I hear anything.

I sadly don't know if the  will ever exist in my lifetime (and I'm still quite young). I think after SAS Phase II, a lot more emphasis will shift towards other expansion needs like Utica Av subway or a 125th St Crosstown. Phase 3 will also just be a HUGE logistical challenge because of all the midtown skyscrapers and infrastructure. I think this sort of ends up like the whole QBLVD super-express project where things run way behind schedule and over budget but they complete the most "important" parts of the project. Even though we don't have a Queens super-express today, the 63rd St tunnel was a huge capacity boost for QBLVD, and set up for both SAS Phase 1 and East Side Access.

The best hope is that our politics gets to a place where there is more emphasis on building subways to expand the city again, and the  fixing some of it's internal issues.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

They’re going ahead with seizing 9 more properties

[CenSin]

5 hours ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

They’re going ahead with seizing 9 more properties

That’s fine and dandy for 2 Avenue, but Astoria is untouchable.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

Was the Confucious Plaza building constructed in collaboration with SAS? According to wiki, it was publicly funded housing project. The reason I ask is because Confucius Plaza is built directly over the SAS ROW, was built around the same time construction on that segment was on going, is publicly funded, and the storage yard thing on the northside of the property is the main access point to the abandoned downtown tunnels.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

MTA pays Extell $82M for Harlem site to extend Second Avenue subway | Crain's New York Business (crainsnewyork.com)

Good sign. I really hope actual construction starts by the end of this year. I also hope they start researching the possibility of the 125th Crosstown, as a possible next step instead of Phase 3.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

C&D Contracting: Upcoming Opportunities (mta.info)

According to this, actual tunnel boring construction of SAS Phase II should start between June and December.

One thing I do worry about is if the debt ceiling crisis comes to fruition it'll kick things several years down the road like COVID did.

Edited May 10, 2023 by ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ

[Chris89292]

49 minutes ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

C&D Contracting: Upcoming Opportunities (mta.info)

According to this, actual tunnel boring construction of SAS Phase II should start between June and December.

One thing I do worry about is if the debt ceiling crisis comes to fruition it'll kick things several years down the road like COVID did.

Pretty sure it means it’ll be around that time where a bid will occur to award a contract, and then constructions starts, it could possibly begin on the 4th quarter of 2023, or early 2024

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

This was an interesting Video by CNBC that focuses in on SAS to discuss why transit is so expensive and complex in America. Most of what they say won't come as unexpected to most transit nerds here. One thing that was interesting though is that SAS is actually pretty good cost on a per dollar basis by US standards; I think that's because most American cities are more spawling so you have to build much longer to serve the same number of people. It's also amazing just how much NYC can skew public averages; people often forget it has far more daily riders than all the other US subway-like systems combined (L, WMATA, BART, PATH, ect).

[JustTheSIR]

7 hours ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

This was an interesting Video by CNBC that focuses in on SAS to discuss why transit is so expensive and complex in America. Most of what they say won't come as unexpected to most transit nerds here. One thing that was interesting though is that SAS is actually pretty good cost on a per dollar basis by US standards; I think that's because most American cities are more spawling so you have to build much longer to serve the same number of people. It's also amazing just how much NYC can skew public averages; people often forget it has far more daily riders than all the other US subway-like systems combined (L, WMATA, BART, PATH, ect).

But, the cost doesn’t have to be directly correlated with ridership. Sure it needs to be able to hold up under the weight of hundreds of thousands of riders a day but it shouldn’t be as expensive as Phase 1

[40 to 241st]

When you think about it the M15 will have a major ridership lose once this whole SAS thing is complete 

[Reptile]

4 hours ago, 40 to 241st said:

When you think about it the M15 will have a major ridership lose once this whole SAS thing is complete 

That's the point

[40 to 241st]

3 minutes ago, Reptile said:

That's the point

So were deleting the M15