Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[mrsman]

On 6/23/2023 at 5:45 PM, CenSin said:

For a much lower cost and increased flexibility, would it not be much cheaper to just install switches north of 57 Street–7 Avenue? A lot less excavation (if any) and the SAS-Broadway connection is no longer locked to a particular pair of tracks.

Even better idea!

If there was a way to rebuild the Broadway BMT to allow the locals to reach 2nd Ave and allowing the expresses to reach 60th street, without interfering with each other, much of the current problem of the line can be resolved.

Astoria - 60th - Broadway express - Brighton

71/Continental - QBL local - 60th - Broadway express - Sea Beach 

 SAS - Broadway local - Montague tunnel - 4th Ave local - Bay Ridge

The SAS line would need to be extended to reach CPW with track connections to allow for yard access to the Concourse Yard.

[Wallyhorse]

10 hours ago, mrsman said:

 

The SAS line would need to be extended to reach CPW with track connections to allow for yard access to the Concourse Yard.

 

This is something that should be done anyway.  That and also in case CPW goes FUBAR where the and  need to use the SAS in an emergency (as both can go with the  to 63rd-Lex and then via the  to regular routes for the  after 47-50 and  after West 4th).  They can use the additional tracks between local and express each way to/from the 8th Avenue line from 125th/St. Nicholas (where I would have a stop with transfers to those lines as part of an extended Phase 2 that ends at Broadway/125th and a transfer to the , something that should be done anyway with Columbia University having expanded as it has). 

[Kamen Rider]

… they’re not going to build anything just because of Columbia, especially when there massive transit deserts with no rail service.

 

maybe instead of worrying if the A has a bypass if CPW has a problem, could we spend some time on places like Queens and Brooklyn where the trains don’t go…

[Reptile]

On 6/27/2023 at 6:20 AM, Wallyhorse said:

This is something that should be done anyway.  That and also in case CPW goes FUBAR where the and  need to use the SAS in an emergency (as both can go with the  to 63rd-Lex and then via the  to regular routes for the  after 47-50 and  after West 4th). 

In the event of something like this, the and are likely not running so the can use its normal fleet at Pitkin and the can use trains from Coney Island. If it's possible for service to end at 125 St on the CPW line they can split service in two like this:

 

125 St to Rockaways/Lefferts via 2nd Av, 6th Av, Fulton St

125 St to Coney Island via 2nd Av, 6th Av, West End

 

Inwood to 125 St

Norwood to 125 St

Otherwise as Kamen Rider said they're not going to make a whole connection just for this. If they can only terminate at say 145 St, they'll run a shuttle bus from 125-145.

[Wallyhorse]

9 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

… they’re not going to build anything just because of Columbia, especially when there massive transit deserts with no rail service.

 

maybe instead of worrying if the A has a bypass if CPW has a problem, could we spend some time on places like Queens and Brooklyn where the trains don’t go…

 

43 minutes ago, Reptile said:

In the event of something like this, the and are likely not running so the can use its normal fleet at Pitkin and the can use trains from Coney Island. If it's possible for service to end at 125 St on the CPW line they can split service in two like this:

 

125 St to Rockaways/Lefferts via 2nd Av, 6th Av, Fulton St

125 St to Coney Island via 2nd Av, 6th Av, West End

 

Inwood to 125 St

Norwood to 125 St

Otherwise as Kamen Rider said they're not going to make a whole connection just for this. If they can only terminate at say 145 St, they'll run a shuttle bus from 125-145.

Columbia is a major employer to upper Manhattan on the west side.  That, and upper west side riders having easy access to the east side via a new crosstown portion of the SAS make it worthwhile alone.

Doing a connection from the SAS at St. Nicholas/125 to the 8th Avenue line aside from giving the SAS access to both the Concourse and 207th Street yards and the and being able to use the SAS in an emergency allows for the SAS to run a line straight to 207 on the or Bedford Park Boulevard on the .  Obviously, you also then can have special SAS Yankees trains as well.   

[Reptile]

21 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

 

Columbia is a major employer to upper Manhattan on the west side.  That, and upper west side riders having easy access to the east side via a new crosstown portion of the SAS make it worthwhile alone.

Doing a connection from the SAS at St. Nicholas/125 to the 8th Avenue line aside from giving the SAS access to both the Concourse and 207th Street yards and the and being able to use the SAS in an emergency allows for the SAS to run a line straight to 207 on the or Bedford Park Boulevard on the .  Obviously, you also then can have special SAS Yankees trains as well.   

I don't think the SAS would be able to run service to 207/BPB regularly due to interlining, as for Yankees trains the already transfers to the SAS. For service changes, does CPW get shut down, ever? I live on that line and sometimes trains go local/express but I don't remember it ever being shut down. If Columbia has expanded to needing more service/access to the then more service would work.

[Kamen Rider]

3 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

 

Columbia is a major employer to upper Manhattan on the west side.  That, and upper west side riders having easy access to the east side via a new crosstown portion of the SAS make it worthwhile alone.

Doing a connection from the SAS at St. Nicholas/125 to the 8th Avenue line aside from giving the SAS access to both the Concourse and 207th Street yards and the and being able to use the SAS in an emergency allows for the SAS to run a line straight to 207 on the or Bedford Park Boulevard on the .  Obviously, you also then can have special SAS Yankees trains as well.   

then where's St. John's University's subway extension? Or Queens College? Why should Colombia get MORE service on top of the options that already exist... when these two don't have rail transit right at their door step? 

 

"Upper west side riders have easy access to" blah blah blah...

 

It's only just occurred to me that you just don't care about the outer boroughs.

You want Manhattanites to be chauffeured every which way from Sunday, meanwhile not a single person on the island of Manhattan is more than a 20 minute walk away from a subway station.

Meanwhile...

There are massive swaths of Brooklyn and queens with only buses.

Let's pick a spot on goggle maps... let's go with the intersection of Linden Blvd and Sutphin Blvd in South Jamaica. That's a 26-minute walk from Jamaica Station/ Supthin-Archer. and before you mention the LIRR stops at St. albins or Locus Manor... that's still longer no matter which way you go. 

 

Which should be more important... adding capacity where it's not needed... or adding capacity where it doesn't exist, period! 

 

[Wallyhorse]

Just now, Kamen Rider said:

then where's St. John's University's subway extension? Or Queens College? Why should Colombia get MORE service on top of the options that already exist... when these two don't have rail transit right at their door step? 

"Upper west side riders have easy access to" blah blah blah...

It's only just occurred to me that you just don't care about the outer boroughs.

You want Manhattanites to be chauffeured every which way from Sunday, meanwhile not a single person on the island of Manhattan is more than a 20 minute walk away from a subway station.

Meanwhile...

There are massive swaths of Brooklyn and queens with only buses.

Let's pick a spot on goggle maps... let's go with the intersection of Linden Blvd and Sutphin Blvd in South Jamaica. That's a 26-minute walk from Jamaica Station/ Supthin-Archer. and before you mention the LIRR stops at St. albins or Locus Manor... that's still longer no matter which way you go. 

Which should be more important... adding capacity where it's not needed... or adding capacity where it doesn't exist, period! 

I know about those massive swaths without Subway very well (I used to go to a school in East Flatbush that required both a subway and a bus ride to reach in the early 1980's, so I'm well aware of that, and that NEEDS to be addressed as well as others have done here).  I was here specifically thinking of a simple extension of an already-planned Phase 2 of the SAS that would get the line from Lenox Avenue (currently planned for a storage area but should be done as a station to allow for transfers to and from the ) that would allow for a connection to/from the  at Broadway in an area where Columbia University has expanded greatly into AND a connection from the SAS TO the 8th Avenue Line at 125/St. Nicholas that would permit at the very least for the (and later ) to have access to Concourse and 207th Street Yards and to allow the and  in an emergency to use the SAS if something goes FUBAR on CPW.

2 hours ago, Reptile said:

I don't think the SAS would be able to run service to 207/BPB regularly due to interlining, as for Yankees trains the already transfers to the SAS. For service changes, does CPW get shut down, ever? I live on that line and sometimes trains go local/express but I don't remember it ever being shut down. If Columbia has expanded to needing more service/access to the then more service would work.

The main reason I'm thinking about connecting the SAS to 8th Avenue at all is the fact you have the area where you have six tracks across between 125 to at least just north of 135.  Any SAS line that connects to 8th Avenue would likely use the track between the local and express each way to/from just north of 135th whether using the Concourse Line or the 8th Avenue line.  This for example could be done where you have the  join the  on the Concourse line between 145 and Bedford Park Boulevard while the and both terminate at 168 and that would be the likely best way to do it (you could also with this if you want to a lot of de-interlining on Broadway itself before the runs on the SAS do it where with Phase 2 going all the way across 125 one of the or  going to BPB with the and the other going to 125th Street-Broadway while the , perhaps supplemented by a new "Yellow  "  I had proposed previously (running from 9th Avenue on the  via 4th Avenue local and the tunnel to Astoria) for my plan of moving the  to Nassau runs to Astoria (with if the has too many trains during peak hours because Whitehall can't turn all of them having some end and begin on the tunnel level of Canal Street, in this case with the continuing to run as it does now).   That to me can work. 

[CenSin]

On 6/28/2023 at 2:35 PM, Wallyhorse said:

Any SAS line that connects to 8th Avenue would likely use the track between the local and express each way to/from just north of 135th whether using the Concourse Line or the 8th Avenue line.  This for example could be done where you have the  join the  on the Concourse line between 145 and Bedford Park Boulevard while the and both terminate at 168 and that would be the likely best way to do it (you could also with this if you want to a lot of de-interlining on Broadway itself before the runs on the SAS do it where with Phase 2 going all the way across 125 one of the or  going to BPB with the and the other going to 125th Street-Broadway while the , perhaps supplemented by a new "Yellow  "  I had proposed previously (running from 9th Avenue on the  via 4th Avenue local and the tunnel to Astoria) for my plan of moving the  to Nassau runs to Astoria (with if the has too many trains during peak hours because Whitehall can't turn all of them having some end and begin on the tunnel level of Canal Street, in this case with the continuing to run as it does now).   That to me can work. 

Have you traced the path on the map? What does it look like?

[Wallyhorse]

I did look at it on track maps on the nycsubway.org site.  You could likely for an SAS connection to 8th Avenue have such tracks coming off the SAS ramp up north of 125 after being under the existing tracks there and join the 8th Avenue line on the south end of such current tracks between the local and express tracks on each side.  

[Theli11]

On 6/28/2023 at 2:13 PM, Kamen Rider said:

meanwhile not a single person on the island of Manhattan is more than a 20 minute walk away from a subway station.

 

Avenue D says hello /s

Seriously though, I'd rather do a branch straight to the Bronx instead of one through Central Park West to the Bronx/Inwood. A subway on either Third, Webster or Park Avenues to  Fordham Rd to Co-Op City while also branching the to Co Op City via Gun Hill Road. I'm not saying that 125th Crosstown is viable but I think it's a piece of SAS that we should be looking at. Columbia University doesn't need another train to get there though, i think the  and the does it's job mighty fine.

[CenSin]

On 6/29/2023 at 9:11 PM, Wallyhorse said:

You could likely for an SAS connection to 8th Avenue have such tracks coming off the SAS ramp up north of 125 after being under the existing tracks there and join the 8th Avenue line on the south end of such current tracks between the local and express tracks on each side.  

It looks like an inefficient cup handle-shaped route.

[Kamen Rider]

9 hours ago, Theli11 said:

Avenue D says hello /s

actually, I checked, they're still within the 20 minutes thanks to the Avenue A entrance at First Avenue on the L. 

[Wallyhorse]

15 hours ago, Theli11 said:

Avenue D says hello /s

Seriously though, I'd rather do a branch straight to the Bronx instead of one through Central Park West to the Bronx/Inwood. A subway on either Third, Webster or Park Avenues to  Fordham Rd to Co-Op City while also branching the to Co Op City via Gun Hill Road. I'm not saying that 125th Crosstown is viable but I think it's a piece of SAS that we should be looking at. Columbia University doesn't need another train to get there though, i think the  and the does it's job mighty fine.

Ideally, and I have previously noted this, how I really would want to do a Bronx SAS (either as an EL OR Subway) would be to have the replicate the old 3rd Avenue EL for the most part as noted below:
  

On 6/12/2023 at 10:17 PM, Wallyhorse said:

: Houston Street (eventually South Ferry when Phase 4 is built) to Gun Hill Road via SAS Express with stops at Houston/1st Streets-1st Avenue, 14th Street-1st Avenue, 42nd Street-2nd Avenue, 55th Street, 72nd Street, 86th Street, 116th Street, 126th or 127th Street-2nd Avenue (depending on EL or Subway, then in the Bronx 138th Street (Transfer to ), 149th Street (Transfer to ), 161st Street, Clearmont Parkway, 173rd and with other stops from the old 3rd Avenue El consolidated until 205th Street (Transfer to ) and Gun Hill Road (Transfer to ).

 

[Wallyhorse]

Just to add:

The part above 1st Avenue comes from previous idea to have the SAS operate south of 23rd Street on 1st Avenue the way the 2nd Avenue EL used to.   This would allow for more easily connecting the SAS to both the Rutgers Tunnel and the Broadway-Brooklyn line off the Willy B

[RSMG106]

According to Governor Kathy Hochul, the is now moving ahead with Phase 2 of the Second Avenue Subway (From 106th Street to 125th Street)

 

[Chris89292]

2 hours ago, RSMG106 said:

According to Governor Kathy Hochul, the is now moving ahead with Phase 2 of the Second Avenue Subway (From 106th Street to 125th Street)

 

Oh wow they’ll still stick with the ridiculous huge open mezzanine, this is why the project is so expensive, what’s the point of such big space

[Wallyhorse]

1 hour ago, Chris89292 said:

Oh wow they’ll still stick with the ridiculous huge open mezzanine, this is why the project is so expensive, what’s the point of such big space

They do need room for multiple elevators and elevator rooms for those (ADA compliance). but otherwise, I suspect it's to appease certain individuals who want them. 

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

On 7/5/2023 at 6:08 PM, Chris89292 said:

Oh wow they’ll still stick with the ridiculous huge open mezzanine, this is why the project is so expensive, what’s the point of such big space

I'm not against the open mezzanines as being nice in some stations, the issue is, the MTA is treating every station along SAS as a high-capacity hub, when just giving a basic level of transit access is the more important goal. It is worth noting compared to most US Transit projects, SAS is pretty good on a cost/user basis; Phase 1 alone would be the 5th busiest metro system in the US by daily ridership, falling between MBTA and PATH. Insane to think about how just that 3 station extension serves well over half of what Chicago's 146 station system serves on a daily basis.

The reality is that for Phase 2, 106th and 116th St are both through stations with no transfers and will both likely have ridership well below that of the existing SAS stations. I think those 2 stations would be just fine without a mezzanine. Given 125th St is kinda gonna become a hub, giving it a nice mezzanine that helps with navigating the transfers makes sense.

One underrated benefit of the Mezzanines is it'll make it easier for express tracks to be added one day if they're ever needed, since it'd allow the station to be retrofitted into a bi-level without digging much new underground infrastructure (like Lex 63rd set up).

[Mtatransit]

40 minutes ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

One underrated benefit of the Mezzanines is it'll make it easier for express tracks to be added one day if they're ever needed, since it'd allow the station to be retrofitted into a bi-level without digging much new underground infrastructure (like Lex 63rd set up).

That is not correct at all

Only the station box is dug up with the mezzanines. New tunneling will still be required for the line between stations.

Plus if we put in an express track on the mezzanine,we wil;l need to redo the station exits/stairs, elevator placements? We will need to redo essentially the entire station and lines. 

 

Lex/63rd was designed with the SAS in mind, hence they left active OOS tracks/platforms on the BMT side of the line

 

The problem is that MTA projects cost way too much. I mean 7.7 Billion dollar for a couple of miles of subway and that is with a very significant portion of tunneling done in the 1970s. Honestly I think a set up similar to 21 Street - Queensbridge is enough

Edited July 8, 2023 by Mtatransit

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

Just now, Mtatransit said:

That is not correct at all

Only the station box is dug up with the mezzanines. New tunneling will still be required.

Plus if we put in an express track on the mezzanine? How will people exit? We will need to redo essentially the entire station and lines

 

Lex/63rd was designed with the SAS in mind, hence they left active OOS tracks/platforms on the BMT side of the line

Yes I agree Lex 63rd is different cause it was always built as a quad track station from the start. What I'm saying is 72nd St could be converted to have a similar set up.

The way this would work on SAS is 72nd St would become a bi-level station with a cross platform transfer; upper level would be Southbound trains and lower level would be Northbound Trains. To retrofit the station would be in phases and would still allow the station to be operational almost the whole time:

1. Relocate bathrooms and some faregates to allow for the mezzanine level to become a platform. Since the station box for 72nd Street is *way* longer than it needs to be, this is doable by extending the length of the station for public use perhaps 50ft on each end or smtg.

2. Construct a trackway for the Southbound  (local) on the upper level on the east side of the station. The eastern part of the Mezzanine would be closed off, but the mezzanine overall would still be open and riders would be able to get down to the lower level during this construction. Once this construction is complete, you'd have a bi-level set up where Northbound  trains run on the Eastern Track of the lower (existing) level and Southbound  runs on the new Eastern Track of the upper (currently mezzanine) level. Since the stationbox is so long, it'd be easier to reconstruct the southbound local tunnel so it goes up to the mezzanine level while keeping the existing southbound  functioning in the meantime.

3. Close Western side of the Mezzanine to construct the trackway for Southbound  (express) trains. Again, you'd only need to close the Western part of the station so both Northbound and Southbound  trains would be accessible. Once this is done, you can run the new  service via a pair of new tunnels with the Southbound  stopping on the west side of upper level, and the Northbound  stopping on the west side of the lower level.

If you really wanted to, you could try to construct a full junction just South of 72nd St Station so that there's more flexibility, or a more modest Junction just north of the Station mainly for maintenance reroutes. This might sound hard, but again, but constructing tunnels is really not that hard, even in Manhattan. It's the stations.

Constructing the tunnels for express service under/around all the station's it'll bypass shouldn't be too hard; it's really the large station boxes that are tricky since you need to deal with structural challenges that come with digging a large box underground. A pair of express tubes could just be dug under the existing 2 tubes and the remaining SAS stations without much of a hassle.

These sorts of station retrofits have been done before; a classic example is the Victoria line in London which has a remarkable number of cross platform transfers with other tube lines. It wouldn't be easy, but not impossible if the demand was there for express tracks.

[CenSin]

Would be easier to just tunnel under the existing tunnel since for the most part, there wouldn’t be any track or station connections north of 72 Street in Manhattan. That avoids the need to move utilities for tunnels to swap depths north of 72 Street.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

4 hours ago, CenSin said:

Would be easier to just tunnel under the existing tunnel since for the most part, there wouldn’t be any track or station connections north of 72 Street in Manhattan. That avoids the need to move utilities for tunnels to swap depths north of 72 Street.

I'm not sure how viable digging under 72nd St Station to create a new lower level would be since you'd have to create a new ultra-wide platform directly under the existing station. I would say *if* you could realistically dig a lower level directly under the current level without disrupting the current station in a major way, then it might be worth it to consider. However, since the mezzanine space already exists, is kind of unnecessary, and would be big enough to fit trains, it might be worth it to just use it so you have to do less new digging.

Also remember, the 72nd St Station box is almost twice as long as the platform itself; in no other parts of the world are station boxes constructed to be more than 20% of the platform length. I'm sure there'd be a way to consolidate storage space, or if really needed add a little bit more somewhere else.

North of 72nd St, you are correct it'd just be best to dig a pair of express tunnels directly under the existing tunnels/stations. Doing so would have minimal to no structural impacts on the existing infrastructure.

[Wallyhorse]

17 hours ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

I'm not sure how viable digging under 72nd St Station to create a new lower level would be since you'd have to create a new ultra-wide platform directly under the existing station. I would say *if* you could realistically dig a lower level directly under the current level without disrupting the current station in a major way, then it might be worth it to consider. However, since the mezzanine space already exists, is kind of unnecessary, and would be big enough to fit trains, it might be worth it to just use it so you have to do less new digging.

Also remember, the 72nd St Station box is almost twice as long as the platform itself; in no other parts of the world are station boxes constructed to be more than 20% of the platform length. I'm sure there'd be a way to consolidate storage space, or if really needed add a little bit more somewhere else.

North of 72nd St, you are correct it'd just be best to dig a pair of express tunnels directly under the existing tunnels/stations. Doing so would have minimal to no structural impacts on the existing infrastructure.

That I would do but make 86th and 116th Express Stops IF the then continued to The Bronx that I would do via the old 3rd Avenue EL route (noted as part of how I would look at overall expansion of the SAS that I would actually have south of 23rd on 1st Avenue the way the old 2nd Avenue EL was:

 

  

On 6/12/2023 at 10:17 PM, Wallyhorse said:

I would also be looking with the SAS on 1st Avenue south of 23rd to build a connector to the Rutgers Street Tunnel.  That could allow for a new "Teal " to run up the SAS with the  and if you also have the  off the Willy B running on the SAS you could look at going with four tracks on the SAS south of 63rd and maybe have express tracks that would continue after that on a new lower level of 72nd Street (with further stops after that at 86th and 116th Street) that could continue to The Bronx via the former 3rd Avenue EL route to Gun Hill Road (either as subway or an EL with if an EL coming out of a portal after the main SAS tracks turn to go to 125th Street and Lexington Avenue (that I would look to have go all the way across 125th to Broadway with transfers to all other lines on the SAS) with a stop at 127th Street-2nd Avenue before continuing to the Bronx with if subway such a stop at 126th/2nd).  If the Willy B, Rutgers  and Queens connectors were all built, we could see it done like this:

: Metropolitan Avenue to 71st/Continental via SAS local, Queens connector and QBL Local.

: Houston Street (eventually South Ferry when Phase 4 is built) to Gun Hill Road via SAS Express with stops at Houston/1st Streets-1st Avenue, 14th Street-1st Avenue, 42nd Street-2nd Avenue, 55th Street, 72nd Street, 86th Street, 116th Street, 126th or 127th Street-2nd Avenue (depending on EL or Subway, then in the Bronx 138th Street (Transfer to ), 149th Street (Transfer to ), 161st Street, Clearmont Parkway, 173rd and with other stops from the old 3rd Avenue El consolidated until 205th Street (Transfer to ) and Gun Hill Road (Transfer to ).

: Church Avenue or Coney Island in Brooklyn via Culver Express (including rebuilding the lower level of Bergen Street to serve trains and if necessary building an underpass to allow transfers between north and south trains), the Rutgers Tunnel and SAS Local to 125th Street with the .   

 

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

6 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

That I would do but make 86th and 116th Express Stops IF the then continued to The Bronx that I would do via the old 3rd Avenue EL route (noted as part of how I would look at overall expansion of the SAS that I would actually have south of 23rd on 1st Avenue the way the old 2nd Avenue EL was:

 

  

 

I would just do 72nd St and prolly116th St as express stops. One thing I dislike about the IND 6th and 8th Avenue line is the express stops are too frequent imo so the express trains sort of lose their benefit. In this case, I don't see what value making 86th St an express stop adds; people can transfer at 72nd or 116th St and I'd suspect a good chunk of 86th St riders would be taking the train South into Manhattan or further, so the express service doesn't really offer them a clear benefit.

As for the Bronx, the more I think about it I think investing in a Throggs Neck  service would be more worth it as that's a huge transit desert and could relieve the . Instead of doing a 3rd Av Subway, you could beef up service on the Metro North ROW, adding some infill stations, and have a subway-like service operating between Wakefield and Grand Central on the local tracks, while trains going up into Westchester County would use the express tracks. This sort of service would compete for existing  and  train passengers since it'd be superexpress in Manhattan down to Grand Central, and since it's Metro North trains, things would generally be cleaner and you'd get a cushioned seat and whatnot (though I imagine the fare would be slightly higher than subway, perhaps at like $5 in today's money like cityfair for LIRR)