news MTA chairman outlines future plans for Phase 2 of Second Ave. subway construction

[Via Garibaldi 8]

You realize Cuomo continually trying to drown the MTA in a bathtub will eventually lead to express bus service cuts, right? I mean I know you love him now cause he's a tea party douchebag who muscled his way into a takeover of the state Democratic party, but his teabagging politics are gonna come back around, and you're not going to like the outcome.

Oh please... People like you will NEVER be happy no matter who is elected...

[realizm]

You realize Cuomo continually trying to drown the MTA in a bathtub will eventually lead to express bus service cuts, right? I mean I know you love him now cause he's a tea party douchebag who muscled his way into a takeover of the state Democratic party, but his teabagging politics are gonna come back around, and you're not going to like the outcome.

 

I approve!

[Fan Railer]

Two words: Daily News.

 

@Fan Railer: Thanks for finding that article as it does clear up some of the vagueness posted in the DN article. It is a bit troubling that it's likely to take another decade to get the line up to Lexington Ave and 125th Street. How much time and money does it take to do these studies and design three stations?

Well, working in the middle of this mess has opened my eyes to a lot of the imperfections that the MTA has to deal with in these major construction projects, both internally within the agency, and externally when dealing with 3rd party construction contractors, so I am no longer surprised as to why this crap takes so long and always goes way over budget.

[bobtehpanda]

I'm wondering if they will actually build Phase 2 with a provision for a Bronx spur? That will send the T eventually to the outer boroughs. I'm sure they have to include this in the new environmental study:

 

 

I mean, they'll probably be included, if only because storage spaces for Second Avenue trains would otherwise be very hard to come by. In the current incarnation, they're tail tracks, so they'll be of some use.

[bobtehpanda]

Two words: Daily News.

 

@Fan Railer: Thanks for finding that article as it does clear up some of the vagueness posted in the DN article. It is a bit troubling that it's likely to take another decade to get the line up to Lexington Ave and 125th Street. How much time and money does it take to do these studies and design three stations?

 

@Via G: I'm well aware of the job Cuomo has as governor of New York, which is take care of the entire state. It's not a difficult concept to understand. Part of that job is to maintain the state-run MTA and I'm not saying he hasn't done that. I'm simply saying he hasn't done anything besides that in terms of improvements and the like.

 

These studies are really quite exhaustive, mostly to avoid the mistake of earlier decades where we just blasted through new infrastructure with no regards to their impact on the surroundings. It's also probably required for FTA funding, since the FTA requires analysis of every possible alternative and a study of the traffic impacts during and after construction.

 

Environmental studies are a necessary evil (although how much studying has to be done is certainly up for debate). On the one hand, they're the reason American projects take so long, but on the other hand, environmental advocacy is also what brought back the subway from the brink after the cancellation of Westway in the '80s.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

This is sort of misleading but I get it. The article in the opening post states some of the same specifics though worded in a different context. According to the Daily News the MTA wishes to allocating $1.5 billion in its 2015-2019 capital program for environmental study, design and finally tunneling.

 

So that means the 1.5 billion dollars is specifically for the FEIS, which has to be updated. That's the minimum the MTA is asking for. The entire cost of phase 2 is projected to be at a cost of 4.5 billion dollars total. Environmental study, design and construction. 

I can't conceivably see how it could possibly cost $1.5 Billion-with-a-B dollars just for a freaking FEIS, when there are entire rail projects in the United States of America that have been built for roughly that amount or less - including San Francisco's MUNI Central Subway whose entire construction budget is listed at $1.6 Billion. Most of that line is going to be underground, including three of its four stations (Chinatown, Powell St and Moscone Center/Yerba Buena). All of that tunneling - deep-bore tunneling - is being done from scratch, whereas SAS Phase 2 would have about 16 blocks of existing subway tunnel incorporated into it. For $1.5 billion, the MTA should be able to get much more than just an environmental study, especially given that one has already been done on the SAS, and the line has been proposed, considered and discussed to death for the last 75 years. Maybe 1.5 billion is too low to get all the way to Lex/125th - but come on! It should not cost $4.5 Billion to get there, especially with two substantial sections of unused tunnel.

 

*FOAM*

 

Man I am seriously wondering now that the MTA shelved plans for a T route using the outer tracks of the MNRR Harlem Line to the WPR decades ago how the MTA will plan out the new Bronx route? Tunnel? Via 3rd Avenue?

Maybe have the take over the Bronx portion of the Jerome or Pelham Bay lines? Or to Dyre Avenue via the Northeast Corridor on physically separate tracks from Amtrak and CSX freight trains?

[Lance]

If we go by previous proposals, you're probably not far off. Of course, that won't do anything to fix the gap in subway service that was created after the demolition of the 3rd Ave elevated.

[bobtehpanda]

I can't conceivably see how it could possibly cost $1.5 Billion-with-a-B dollars just for a freaking FEIS, when there are entire rail projects in the United States of America that have been built for roughly that amount or less - including San Francisco's MUNI Central Subway whose entire construction budget is listed at $1.6 Billion. Most of that line is going to be underground, including three of its four stations (Chinatown, Powell St and Moscone Center/Yerba Buena). All of that tunneling - deep-bore tunneling - is being done from scratch, whereas SAS Phase 2 would have about 16 blocks of existing subway tunnel incorporated into it. For $1.5 billion, the MTA should be able to get much more than just an environmental study, especially given that one has already been done on the SAS, and the line has been proposed, considered and discussed to death for the last 75 years. Maybe 1.5 billion is too low to get all the way to Lex/125th - but come on! It should not cost $4.5 Billion to get there, especially with two substantial sections of unused tunnel.

 

Maybe have the take over the Bronx portion of the Jerome or Pelham Bay lines? Or to Dyre Avenue via the Northeast Corridor on physically separate tracks from Amtrak and CSX freight trains?

 

The environmental study also presumably involves a traffic study, which all transportation projects do so that they can measure how much air pollution is being saved/created. The traffic study would also provide data for FTA, which would then decide whether or not to give it federal dollars.

 

If you think about it, traffic and projected ridership is actually something that should probably be updated after a decade has passed, since a lot has changed since that time period (and subway ridership keeps hitting record highs).