Woodhaven Blvd. Q52/53 SBS Discussion

[bobtehpanda]

You could take some of the money allocated for the SBS line and use it to restore rail service along the ROW. 

 

A good portion of SBS funding is federal. Federal funding cannot be easily shifted to other projects, as Chris Christie found out when he cancelled ARC and the state of New Jersey had to pay back about $200-300M.

[JerBear]

A good portion of SBS funding is federal. Federal funding cannot be easily shifted to other projects, as Chris Christie found out when he cancelled ARC and the state of New Jersey had to pay back about $200-300M.

Great point, I forgot about that.

So yeah, in an either/or scenario between reactivating something on the RBB versus SBS on Woodhaven, there is no way DOT & NYCT are going to reverse coarse and go the other way.

Any "they should do it my way and yada, yada, yada" ideas are just pointless fantasy.

[JerBear]

60 Questions for BrooklynBus and the Queens Public Transit Committee:

 

General Questions

 

1. Your report seems to indicate QueensRail will help everyone. Is there anyone who will be hurt by QueensRail?

 

2. In order to provide a fair assessment to determine that more people will be helped than hurt by QueensRail, shouldn’t you be comparing the time saved by train passengers with the time lost by bus passengers? If not why not?

 

3. Why have you not provided detailed budget projections for QueensRail and when will we get them?

 

4. If the train traffic is already so severe during rush hours as to significantly delay trains, won't the addition of new trains make those delays for cars even worse?

 

5. Why isn’t light rail running down the center of Woodhaven along the same corridor considered as an alternative where even more people could be accommodated (because more people live within walking distance of Woodhaven where stops could be added than the few proposed QueensRail stops)?

 

6. Should the speed limit on Woodhaven Boulevard be raised and if so, would that not be counterproductive to increasing pedestrian safety?

 

7. How much capacity on the partnered train lines will be lost to accommodate the new trains?

 

8. What are the initial costs to provide QueensRail safety enforcement such as fences to stop trespassers on the ROW?

 

9. What are the ongoing annual costs to maintain the fences if they are installed, the annual costs to employ the MTA Police to ensure that the passengers are paying their fare, and the costs to maintain turnstiles when they wear out, the costs to maintain the additional metro card vending machines and the time clocks that will be installed?

 

10. The plan has many different budget figures listed as possibilities. Is this because no single plan has been put together and so there is no plan to budget out? Why can't you provide detailed budget figures for every possible plan currently being considered?

 

11. What guarantees that this rail line will get the same cost recovery that long-existing lines already have?

 

12. Will reactivation of the RBB you mean service cuts to the Q52 and Q53 since those trains hold more passengers and you base your service levels on how crowded the buses are?

 

13. If there are fewer Q52 and Q53 buses because trains run on the RBB, how will the increased wait times affect the projected travel time savings for the passengers?

 

14. Since you are adding train stations to the RBB that result in fewer people riding the buses, won't everybody west of Woodhaven have to walk further and wait longer?

 

15. Will you cut existing train service in order to run trains from the RBB into Manhattan?

 

16. How many much further will riders have to walk to the few train stations from all the various local and limited bus stops?

 

17. If the RBB is reactivated, does anyone still need the Q52 to be extended to Far Rockaway?

 

18. If more people take the RBB train because it is reactivated, how will you determine how much of the ridership changes resulted from the reactivation versus the limitations of other train lines' capacities? Doesn’t it make more sense to first reduce the other train lines' capacities before you reactivate the RBB?

 

19. What are the scheduled running times end to end on the trains running on the RBB, the capacity on them, the reduced capacity on the other lines because these new trains are running in between them, and the total effect on overall train capacity?

 

20. If buses are regularly significantly delayed during the rush hours due to traffic, how will a $600 million train line help people who don't need to take the train because there isn't a station near them?

 

21. Can you show us another rail line like this that has been reactivated somewhere and how it helped that region's overall transportation capacity?

 

22. If you intend to have exclusive ROW for the trains, how are bicyclists supposed to go north and south through this area?

 

23. Why not build an elevated light-rail line on top of Woodhaven to allow all traffic lanes to remain while providing amazing public transit and leaving the RBB for the QueensWay park conversion? Why has this alternative not been evaluated?

 

24. What are passengers supposed to do when all the metro card vending machines are inoperable because they run out of metrocards or are covered in a sheet of ice, for example?

 

25. How much has fare evasion been reduced on other reactivated rail lines and by how much has the additional revenue gained by reduced fare evasion exceeded the additional costs of providing train fare enforcement?

 

26. If I need a local bus to access the RBB, could I still take another bus or train for the same fare? Q11 to RBB to Q70?

 

27. What do you consider a reasonable frequency for these trains? How does it compare to planned frequency for the SBS routes?

 

28. Does a huge capital expenditure really make sense if you have to reduce the frequency of other train lines to fit proposed RBB trains onto the existing tracks going into Manhattan?

 

29. Why won't bicyclists or picnicers & loungers be able to use the exclusive ROW?

 

30. How does this proposal, especially the LIRR version, fit with the PCAC Freedom Ticket where riding into Manhattan may be made cheaper? Does that proposal eat up the same excess capacity on the LIRR that QueensRail proposes to use up? Will cheaper tickets destroy the possibility of a high farebox recovery for RBB trains?

 

31. Where are your analyses of train traffic with frequencies and interlining laid out to evaluate how well the lines can be integrated without bogging down existing service?

 

32. Can you explain why people who paid twice the amount for their house because transit access was important to them should be slowed down because people who spent half as much on their house begged politicians to bless them with the largesse of this project?

 

33. At what point do you realize there is not enough political will for the RBB project and instead work to ask questions that might improve SBS on Woodhaven since it seems to be a done deal, instead of just bashing your head against a wall?

 

34. If you succeed in getting NYCT & DOT to drop SBS on Woodhaven but the RBB doesn’t move forward either, how will increasing congestion on Woodhaven be mitigated?

 

35. Has BrooklynBus ever heard of induced demand? Has anyone explained to him that turning Woodhaven into an airport runway with a few lines of paint will actually increase congestion, not reduce it?

 

36. Just kidding, there aren't 60 questions. This is as far as I can stretch with hypothetical silliness.

[checkmatechamp13]

What sense does that make? If you take any money out of the SBS program, they would have to scrap the whole thing or otherwise they would have said, "Oh yeah, we threw some local pork in there, we don't really need that, we can build it for less" - and has any government agency ever said that? So what you're really saying is the Queens Public Transit Committee's position: No SBS, just reactivation of the RBB.

But the entire budget of the SBS line could not approach paying for the reactivation of any transit on the RBB, no matter the mode or how it connects to everything else. Are there any engineers on here? What would it cost just to rebuild the bridge over the LIRR behind Home Depot? $20 million? $50 million?

And why would any politician try to find capital funding for this former rail line that runs through suburbs that don't want it anyway instead of the extension of the Second Avenue Subway through urban areas that are screaming for it? If the RBB gets full capital funding before the next phase of the Second Avenue Subway, I will ride naked on the reopening day of the RBB.

 

IIRC, they said it's $230 million for BRT on Woodhaven, compared to $800 million for a reactivation of the RBB. So they have over a quarter of the money right there. I could see it bringing 4 times the overall benefit, compared to SBS.

[bobtehpanda]

IIRC, they said it's $230 million for BRT on Woodhaven, compared to $800 million for a reactivation of the RBB. So they have over a quarter of the money right there. I could see it bringing 4 times the overall benefit, compared to SBS.

 

And how much of that quarter million can they actually move to other projects? How much of that cost is federal funds allocated for a specific purpose?

 

More importantly, does anyone actually believe that this is going to happen for less than a billion dollars without cost overruns of any sort? Every government megaproject (with the exception of Water Tunnel No. 3) has been way overbudget and way late.

[BrooklynBus]

To JerBear,

 

I don't have time right now to answer you hypothetical silliness which is exactly what it is. You are trying to trivialize serious questions that DOT should have the answers to and pretending that a few individuals who care about reactivating the RBL have access to the same resources to provide an in depth budget study as two highly funded transportation agencies have. Yes. That is silliness.

 

And BrooklynBus has heard of induced demand. That is applicable to the RBL. It is not applicable to SBS/BRT. The RBL will greatly reduce travel times. BRT will not. DOT has not even dared to make a projection as to how many might shift from auto to bus. They should have this information from their transit forecasting model but do not.

 

The people who drive have would have a much longer trip by bus and BRT does nothing to reduce the number of transfers needed, hence few if any will a switch modes.

[JerBear]

No, obviously I didn't mean for those questions to be answered. I just find it funny that anyone would expect government agencies to answer such questions.

You worked for government agencies for most or all of your career, right? Everybody I know that worked for government agencies said they're big pits of despair and no one is allowed to do anything, like answer questions like these.

I wish they would do real BRT with platform boarding and real stations. This SBS stuff is just enhanced local bus service. The proof is in the accepting of the SBS paper tickets for local buses. BRT should be as different from local bus as LIRR is from the subway. When I go from Flushing to Midtown I choose subway if I have plenty of time but am short on money, and I choose the LIRR if I need to get there fast, or I am wearing a suit and going to a job interview and want a seat, and so I pay for the premium service. If SBS and local bus service are so similar that passengers can take whichever comes next and it doesn't matter, then it's not anything like BRT.

But. That doesn't mean that I find any value in the 60 questions because they're obviously antagonistic and the agencies can afford to ignore the questions. I saw the YouTube video of the "town hall" with Commissioner Garcia, and she can just "yes" you to death and say they'll look into it because the questions don't actually challenge them.

As a former planner, can you put together a better plan for the lane configurations for Woodhaven? Can you do a real comprehensive re-do of the buses in that area? People on this forum have lots of ideas about how to adjust bus service on various routes. Can't you put together a better version of the bus system? Like why are they talking about 2 bus routes (52 & 53)? Can't it just be one? How long would it take to put together an alternative plan that allows for lots of car access and left turn phases, and better designs the way buses serve the corridor? And then present that at the next town hall or have a politician introduce the plan as a bill?

[BrooklynBus]

I actually could have answered many of those questions, but now I won't bother.

 

I don't know how old you are or how much experience you have had with government agencies, but I have been dealing with the MTA as an employee as well as from another city agency for a total of 33 years. I think I know a thing or two. First let me defend those agencies for a minute. It is not true that everyone who works for a government agency does not care about doing a good or comprehensive job. They are all. It a bunch of lazy bums, thought they do have their share of them.

 

The biggest problem with working for one of these agencies and doing a good job is that you are prevented from doing that by a number of factors. It could be that you are not given the proper resources, your direct boss could be standing in your way, you don't have the authority you need to accomplish what needs to be done, there is a problem with the organizational structure, etc.

 

As far as real BRT vs SBS, the former was proposed for Woodhaven, but that might not happen because it would cost too much. So now it looks like that only the lower portion will be real BRT.

 

The 60 questions were not antagonistic but were perfectly legitimate and chalenging if the MTA and DOT operated with full transparency as they claimed. In fact DOT finally adequately answered about 15 of them and addressed another 15 with unsatisfactory answers. The remaining 30, they ignored. There certainly was nothing wrong with asking them to prove how their BRT plan costing over ten times as much as their initial SBS plan provides ten times the benefit. That's what a cost benefit analysis woud have proved. How does destroying hundreds of trees and then replacing them improve transportation, for example?

 

I believe the option chosen was the worst of the the three being considered as far as traffic is concerned. DOT has not proven why exclusive lanes are needed 24/7. I could do a comprehensive redo of the buses in that area if I gave it the proper attention and could get the data I needed.

 

As far as the Q52 and Q53 being one bus route instead of two, that is just a matter of semantics. It is really one route but is given two numbers because the terminals are different at both ends. If both routes ran to Woodside, it would have one route number with two branches like the B41. Two numbers makes it less confusing.

 

The only reason why the left turns are being banned is so that the distances pedestrians have to cross would decrease by widening the center islands because te city is on this Vision Zero kick. It has nothing to do with bus service. There is also a concerted effort to punish motorists for driving.

 

The alternate plan is to study utilizing the Rockaway Beach Line which needed to be done in a corridor study. The corridor is not defined solely by Woodhaven and Cross Bay Boulevards. No one woud call I 95 or Amtrak by themselves, the Northeast Corridor. They are the Northeast Corridor together, just as Woodhaven/ Cross Bay and the Rockaway Beach Line is one corridor.

[JerBear]

As far as real BRT vs SBS, the former was proposed for Woodhaven, but that might not happen because it would cost too much. So now it looks like that only the lower portion will be real BRT.

 

No. Stop, seriously. There are no plans for BRT in New York City.

 

The Institute for Transportation & Development Policy is THE source for what constitutes BRT in America. They wrote the standard. Then they went and measured several US cities and their "BRT" lines using the scorecard. Cleveland's Health Line, at a score of 63, was the nation's best. And that's only up to the Bronze level. New York City had 2 SBS lines when the study was done, and received a score of 35: "Not BRT". They clearly state that you have to receive a score of 50 to be called BRT by anyone other than a politician promoting something. (Actually, if you add up the score in the appendix, it is only a 33... Someone must have re-run the scorecard after totals had already been tallied and forgot to update the tally).

So that was the Bx12 and the M15. Now let's look at Woodhaven/Cross Bay. I haven't seen any new designs that came out of the latest meeting, but I understand they're phasing in their already-adopted Option 2 plan, right? So departing from the previous score based on the Bx12 and M15 and looking at where the score might change:

Add 2 points for the elimination of left turns and signal priority--they're still planning on doing that, right?

Add 2 points for "Multiple Routes use the same BRT infrastructure", although I think it's still really just 1 route with branching.

Add 1 point for "physically separated passing lanes at stations" since only some of the stops were getting this treatment.

Add 2 points for "Limited and local stop services" since the locals are still pretty good there (assuming they don't cut back service).

Add 1 point for "Part of planned network" since these will connect to the Q70 SBS which will connect to the M60 SBS, but no East-West SBS crossing it.

Add 3 points for "stations occupy former road/median space".

Take away a point for "Bicycle lanes in corridor" because there aren't any planned here, right?

Add 1 point for "Passenger information at stops and on vehicles". Are they going to have countdown clocks at every station? Because then that would be worth an extra point.

 

So by my count Woodhaven/Cross Bay gets a 44 on the scorecard. In other words: Not BRT.

Would Option 3 have qualified as BRT? Add 3 points for" Bus lanes in the center" and 1 point for "Physically separated passing lanes at stations".

Sorry, still topped out at 48. Not BRT.

[BrooklynBus]

No. Stop, seriously. There are no plans for BRT in New York City.

The Institute for Transportation & Development Policy is THE source for what constitutes BRT in America. They wrote the standard. Then they went and measured several US cities and their "BRT" lines using the scorecard. Cleveland's Health Line, at a score of 63, was the nation's best. And that's only up to the Bronze level. New York City had 2 SBS lines when the study was done, and received a score of 35: "Not BRT". They clearly state that you have to receive a score of 50 to be called BRT by anyone other than a politician promoting something. (Actually, if you add up the score in the appendix, it is only a 33... Someone must have re-run the scorecard after totals had already been tallied and forgot to update the tally).

So that was the Bx12 and the M15. Now let's look at Woodhaven/Cross Bay. I haven't seen any new designs that came out of the latest meeting, but I understand they're phasing in their already-adopted Option 2 plan, right? So departing from the previous score based on the Bx12 and M15 and looking at where the score might change:

Add 2 points for the elimination of left turns and signal priority--they're still planning on doing that, right?

Add 2 points for "Multiple Routes use the same BRT infrastructure", although I think it's still really just 1 route with branching.

Add 1 point for "physically separated passing lanes at stations" since only some of the stops were getting this treatment.

Add 2 points for "Limited and local stop services" since the locals are still pretty good there (assuming they don't cut back service).

Add 1 point for "Part of planned network" since these will connect to the Q70 SBS which will connect to the M60 SBS, but no East-West SBS crossing it.

Add 3 points for "stations occupy former road/median space".

Take away a point for "Bicycle lanes in corridor" because there aren't any planned here, right?

Add 1 point for "Passenger information at stops and on vehicles". Are they going to have countdown clocks at every station? Because then that would be worth an extra point.

So by my count Woodhaven/Cross Bay gets a 44 on the scorecard. In other words: Not BRT.

Would Option 3 have qualified as BRT? Add 3 points for" Bus lanes in the center" and 1 point for "Physically separated passing lanes at stations".

Sorry, still topped out at 48. Not BRT.

Well thank you for proving my point for me. $231,000 wasted on some nonsense concoction to screw up drivers of cars to double their trip time, that doesn't even qualify as BRT. Not to mention millions more to operate a systems that is already financially strapped that shows no

promise of getting any cars off the road. More air pollution for the corridor in the name of increased pedestrian safety and slower speeds for everyone including bus riders because buses will no longer be able to reach a top speed of 35 or 40 mph and will not be able to travel faster than 25 mph when this is all done, perhaps 30 mph on the bridge. And no proof of increased bus ridership. That's why we call it Select BS.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Well thank you for proving my point for me. $231,000 wasted on some nonsense concoction to screw up drivers of cars to double their trip time, that doesn't even qualify as BRT. Not to mention millions more to operate a systems that is already financially strapped that shows no

promise of getting any cars off the road. More air pollution for the corridor in the name of increased pedestrian safety and slower speeds for everyone including bus riders because buses will no longer be able to reach a top speed of 35 or 40 mph and will not be able to travel faster than 25 mph when this is all done, perhaps 30 mph on the bridge. And no proof of increased bus ridership. That's why we call it Select BS.

lol... You just want any excuse to justify driving your car. Just admit it.  The areas along Woodhaven Blvd are car centric and they like it just like that.

[JerBear]

I just read the Queens Tribune article on the Town Hall meeting. BrooklynBus, are you going to change your name to QueensBus since you now live in Woodhaven?

And why do people assume that median bus stops are more dangerous? Is there any proof of that at all? I can't think of any median bus stops here in New York, but I did ride the Cleveland Health Line and those median bus stops seemed just as safe as your average bus stop. The quote about the 13-year-old chasing his girlfriend around--I try to avoid the bus stop on 35th outside the high school if kids are there. I fear for my safety just because of their horseplay. I will just walk to Main Street instead. So what is the actual increased threat of a problem with a median stop? I thought they were building median stops somewhere--did any of the earlier SBS routes get median stops? I have ridden the M60, M15, and M34 SBS and I don't remember any median stops.

[BrooklynBus]

lol... You just want any excuse to justify driving your car. Just admit it.  The areas along Woodhaven Blvd are car centric and they like it just like that.

Yeah right. Tell me why I would want the hassle of driving and paying for gas when I could ride mass transit for free and relax and read a book. I will tell you. It is so I could get to my destination in 36 to 45 minutes, 1 hour with heavy traffic as opposed to bus and train taking 2

90 minutes to two hours. That's why and SBS would still take even longer and would involve a minimum of 5 or 6 vehicles. That's why I would prefer to drive and that is why so many others also prefer to drive. Not because they love their cars but because they have no other realistic alternatives. And you don't get people to leave their cars at home by increasing their trip time from 45 minutes to 90 minutes.

[bobtehpanda]

Yeah right. Tell me why I would want the hassle of driving and paying for gas when I could ride mass transit for free and relax and read a book. I will tell you. It is so I could get to my destination in 36 to 45 minutes, 1 hour with heavy traffic as opposed to bus and train taking 2

90 minutes to two hours. That's why and SBS would still take even longer and would involve a minimum of 5 or 6 vehicles. That's why I would prefer to drive and that is why so many others also prefer to drive. Not because they love their cars but because they have no other realistic alternatives. And you don't get people to leave their cars at home by increasing their trip time from 45 minutes to 90 minutes.

 

How is it supposed to take more vehicles and time if the SBS is replacing the Q53 lock, stock, and barrel...

[BrooklynBus]

I just read the Queens Tribune article on the Town Hall meeting. BrooklynBus, are you going to change your name to QueensBus since you now live in Woodhaven?

And why do people assume that median bus stops are more dangerous? Is there any proof of that at all? I can't think of any median bus stops here in New York, but I did ride the Cleveland Health Line and those median bus stops seemed just as safe as your average bus stop. The quote about the 13-year-old chasing his girlfriend around--I try to avoid the bus stop on 35th outside the high school if kids are there. I fear for my safety just because of their horseplay. I will just walk to Main Street instead. So what is the actual increased threat of a problem with a median stop? I thought they were building median stops somewhere--did any of the earlier SBS routes get median stops? I have ridden the M60, M15, and M34 SBS and I don't remember any median stops.

The problem with median stops is that you are making it necessary to cross the street every time you need a bus instead of only in one direction. Also, if buses are late, it is easier for the bus stop to overflow with passengers since you can't wait outside of the bus stop.

 

It's like I remember when some bus stops were near side and others were far side at heavy transfer stops. You just jumped off one bus and onto the other without any problem. Making them all far side encouraged people to dodge cars and jaywalk to catch a waiting bus. This is no different.

How is it supposed to take more vehicles and time if the SBS is replacing the Q53 lock, stock, and barrel...

Where did I say it would? Why can't you just understand what I wrote without trying to change what I wrote and respond to that?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Yeah right. Tell me why I would want the hassle of driving and paying for gas when I could ride mass transit for free and relax and read a book. I will tell you. It is so I could get to my destination in 36 to 45 minutes, 1 hour with heavy traffic as opposed to bus and train taking 2

90 minutes to two hours. That's why and SBS would still take even longer and would involve a minimum of 5 or 6 vehicles. That's why I would prefer to drive and that is why so many others also prefer to drive. Not because they love their cars but because they have no other realistic alternatives. And you don't get people to leave their cars at home by increasing their trip time from 45 minutes to 90 minutes.

Yeah well how many people are going from Manhattan Beach to areas along Woodhaven Blvd? That's a trip that makes the most sense via car anyway, so I'm not sure what you're carrying on about.  There's enough room along Woodhaven Blvd for the cars and the buses.  

[JerBear]

I'm not asking for the principles and logic of arguments for or against median stops. I don't care if they seem less safe. There should be enough median bus stops in the country for someone to get some sort of reliable measure of safety on them. Anybody know of any studies? Facts? Figures? Statistics?

[bobtehpanda]

The problem with median stops is that you are making it necessary to cross the street every time you need a bus instead of only in one direction. Also, if buses are late, it is easier for the bus stop to overflow with passengers since you can't wait outside of the bus stop.

 

It's like I remember when some bus stops were near side and others were far side at heavy transfer stops. You just jumped off one bus and onto the other without any problem. Making them all far side encouraged people to dodge cars and jaywalk to catch a waiting bus. This is no different.

 

Where did I say it would? Why can't you just understand what I wrote without trying to change what I wrote and respond to that?

 

The part where you said taking a bus to the train takes 2 hours, and SBS would make it a 5 or six vehicle trip on top of that? I already have to make long, hard trips by mass transit (simply because cars + tolls is not an option), and even between hard to reach locations it is never that difficult of a trip. Even if I am traveling to the Northern Bronx or the south shore of Staten Island from Eastern Queens, it's not that difficult in the first place.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The part where you said taking a bus to the train takes 2 hours, and SBS would make it a 5 or six vehicle trip on top of that? I already have to make long, hard trips by mass transit (simply because cars + tolls is not an option), and even between hard to reach locations it is never that difficult of a trip. Even if I am traveling to the Northern Bronx or the south shore of Staten Island from Eastern Queens, it's not that difficult in the first place.

You really think so??  I use the express buses, but you, I can't see you doing that to make trips from say Eastern Queens to Staten Island. 

[bobtehpanda]

You really think so??  I use the express buses, but you, I can't see you doing that to make trips from say Eastern Queens to Staten Island. 

 

It's doable, and I've used the express buses before, I just don't regularly ride them. It's still cheaper than the VZ toll.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It's doable, and I've used the express buses before, I just don't regularly ride them. It's still cheaper than the VZ toll.

In other words you do those trips with the express bus and not local buses and subways.  If that's the case then yes, they are certainly doable. 

[BrooklynBus]

Yeah well how many people are going from Manhattan Beach to areas along Woodhaven Blvd? That's a trip that makes the most sense via car anyway, so I'm not sure what you're carrying on about.  There's enough room along Woodhaven Blvd for the cars and the buses.

 

No there is not enough room on Woodhaven for the cars and buses when less tan 17% of the traffic is from bus passengers and the bus lanes will be in effect 24/7, including ties when virtually all traffic is non bus traffic.

 

They don't have to be going from Manhattan Beach to Woodhaven but anywhere between Southern or Central Brooklyn and Astoria, Long Island City, Sunnyside. Woodside, Rego Park, Forest Hillls, etc. For all those trips Woodhaven is the best route during most times of the day. Perhaps 95 percent of those trips are made by car. A Riders Alliance person testified at City Hall that she travels between Woodhaven and Kings Highway by bus and it takes her two hours. She would save at most ten minutes with SBS.

[BrooklynBus]

The part where you said taking a bus to the train takes 2 hours, and SBS would make it a 5 or six vehicle trip on top of that? I already have to make long, hard trips by mass transit (simply because cars + tolls is not an option), and even between hard to reach locations it is never that difficult of a trip. Even if I am traveling to the Northern Bronx or the south shore of Staten Island from Eastern Queens, it's not that difficult in the first place.

What I said was that it currently takes a bus and at least one train which takes 90 minutes to two hours. The current alternate bus trip would take longer, over two hours. With SBS, it might save ten or fifteen minutes, but not enough to make it a better choice than the other current mass transit choices which take two hours or less.

 

And how long does a mass transit trip take from the south Shore of Staten Island to the North Bronx? I assume you are making that trip with two express buses and you are not returning home at 11 PM. Many using cars use their car precisely because they need to come home at an odd hour when the express bus may run only every hour or not run at all. And what do you do if there is no express bus or buses between the two locations? Not to mention it is costing you $26 a day.

[checkmatechamp13]

What I said was that it currently takes a bus and at least one train which takes 90 minutes to two hours. The current alternate bus trip would take longer, over two hours. With SBS, it might save ten or fifteen minutes, but not enough to make it a better choice than the other current mass transit choices which take two hours or less.

 

And how long does a mass transit trip take from the south Shore of Staten Island to the North Bronx? I assume you are making that trip with two express buses and you are not returning home at 11 PM. Many using cars use their car precisely because they need to come home at an odd hour when the express bus may run only every hour or not run at all. And what do you do if there is no express bus or buses between the two locations? Not to mention it is costing you $26 a day.

 

You're allowed free transfers between express buses, so it's only $13 a day. 

[BrooklynBus]

Video and Summary of November 2015 Woodhaven SBS meeting

 

http://www.projectwoodhaven.com/2015/November/sbs-meeting.html

​