Woodhaven Blvd. Q52/53 SBS Discussion

[Lordsaitamaboss]

What I said was that it currently takes a bus and at least one train which takes 90 minutes to two hours. The current alternate bus trip would take longer, over two hours. With SBS, it might save ten or fifteen minutes, but not enough to make it a better choice than the other current mass transit choices which take two hours or less.

 

And how long does a mass transit trip take from the south Shore of Staten Island to the North Bronx? I assume you are making that trip with two express buses and you are not returning home at 11 PM. Many using cars use their car precisely because they need to come home at an odd hour when the express bus may run only every hour or not run at all. And what do you do if there is no express bus or buses between the two locations? Not to mention it is costing you $26 a day.

Express bus fare is $55 per week with local bus and subway included.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Express bus fare is $55 per week with local bus and subway included.

Incorrect... The express bus pass is $57.25 per week, local bus and subway included.

[Lordsaitamaboss]

Incorrect... The express bus pass is $57.25 per week, local bus and subway included.

Thanks for the correction.

[checkmatechamp13]

Express bus fare is $55 per week with local bus and subway included.

 

First of all, you might not be making that trip 5 or more days a week, so it wouldn't pay to get the weekly pass (which as VG8 said is $57.25).

 

Second of all, as BrooklynBus said, if you make the trip at an odd hour, the express bus might run infrequently or not at all, which means you may be forced to use the subway & local bus for half the trip.

[Lordsaitamaboss]

First of all, you might not be making that trip 5 or more days a week, so it wouldn't pay to get the weekly pass (which as VG8 said is $57.25).

 

Second of all, as BrooklynBus said, if you make the trip at an odd hour, the express bus might run infrequently or not at all, which means you may be forced to use the subway & local bus for half the trip.

But that pass covers local bus and subway too. But if you use express bus very infrequently then use pay-per ride merged with unlimited monthly local. You would only pay step up charge of $3.75 when transferring to an express bus.

[East New York]

Video and Summary of November 2015 Woodhaven SBS meeting

 

http://www.projectwoodhaven.com/2015/November/sbs-meeting.html

​

 

Remember may no longer be 100% accurate as Woodhaven SBS has been put on hold until further notice. 

[BrooklynBus]

Remember may no longer be 100% accurate as Woodhaven SBS has been put on hold until further notice.

 

Where did you get that idea? Nothing has been put on hold. SBS is moving full steam ahead.

 

What has changed is that BRT will not be implemented in one phase and may not encompass the entire corridor. Also parts of the corridor may not get SBS or BRT, but at least part of it will get SBS which is scheduled to be completed in 2018. Some of that SBS may become permanent and other parts of it will be converted to BRT after 2018. The entire project is now scheduled to be completed by around 2022.

 

Since the planning of SBS on Woodhaven began in 2012, the notion that SBS is "quick" or "short term" when compared to building a subway line is nonsense. Remember the first subway was built in only four years.

[IAlam]

But that pass covers local bus and subway too. But if you use express bus very infrequently then use pay-per ride merged with unlimited monthly local. You would only pay step up charge of $3.75 when transferring to an express bus.

whoa you can't combine and unlimited and pay per ride can you?

[Lordsaitamaboss]

whoa you can't combine and unlimited and pay per ride can you?

yes you can if you have an unlimited card you put it in the machine then select add value and add in pay per ride value to the same card. However if your unlimited is active the pay-per ride balance would only be deducted when you ride the express bus otherwise the balance remains untouched. If you have a express bus plus then your PPR balance will not be used till the unlimited period is over unless you decide to use the PATH.

[JerBear]

Also parts of the corridor may not get SBS or BRT, but at least part of it will get SBS...

 

I am incredulous. I really don't get it. I was never manager of bus service planning but I can read. Select Bus Service is a type of service, like Local, Limited, and Express. A bus route is classified as one of those kinds of service. The QM15 is express. The Q34 is local. In 2018 the Q52 and Q53, currently running limited service, will then be running SBS service. The entire length of both routes from Woodside to Rockaway Park and Arverne (or Far Rockaway? are they still moving forward with extending the 52?) will have SBS service on it.

Maybe you mean they won't have bus lanes the whole way; then say bus lanes. Maybe they won't have boarding islands the whole way; then say boarding islands. But "the corridor" will get SBS the whole way.

If you mean that the corridor will not get BRT, then yes, you're right. But I am pretty sure you mean boarding islands or bus lanes or other things.

 

Since the planning of SBS on Woodhaven began in 2012, the notion that SBS is "quick" or "short term" when compared to building a subway line is nonsense. Remember the first subway was built in only four years.

But what does that have to do with building a subway today? SBS is quick and short term compared to the Second Avenue Subway. Washington Metro's Silver Line took 12 years to build the first 5 stations and will take at least an additional 6 years for the next 6. 18 years and $7B for 22 miles of a Subway line. SBS is expensive and not as good as BRT, but for under 10 years (SBS for Woodhaven really only started in 2014) and for less than a billion what else could you hope for? When the Governor ran around the state recently spouting about $150B he didn't choose to stand next to Phil McManus and pledge a single dollar for reactivating the RBB. So absent that fantasy, what the hell else that someone is willing to pay for should be done to improve transit service in the corridor?

[BrooklynBus]

I am incredulous. I really don't get it. I was never manager of bus service planning but I can read. Select Bus Service is a type of service, like Local, Limited, and Express. A bus route is classified as one of those kinds of service. The QM15 is express. The Q34 is local. In 2018 the Q52 and Q53, currently running limited service, will then be running SBS service. The entire length of both routes from Woodside to Rockaway Park and Arverne (or Far Rockaway? are they still moving forward with extending the 52?) will have SBS service on it.

 

Maybe you mean they won't have bus lanes the whole way; then say bus lanes. Maybe they won't have boarding islands the whole way; then say boarding islands. But "the corridor" will get SBS the whole way.

 

If you mean that the corridor will not get BRT, then yes, you're right. But I am pretty sure you mean boarding islands or bus lanes or other things.

But what does that have to do with building a subway today? SBS is quick and short term compared to the Second Avenue Subway. Washington Metro's Silver Line took 12 years to build the first 5 stations and will take at least an additional 6 years for the next 6. 18 years and $7B for 22 miles of a Subway line. SBS is expensive and not as good as BRT, but for under 10 years (SBS for Woodhaven really only started in 2014) and for less than a billion what else could you hope for? When the Governor ran around the state recently spouting about $150B he didn't choose to stand next to Phil McManus and pledge a single dollar for reactivating the RBB. So absent that fantasy, what the hell else that someone is willing to pay for should be done to improve transit service in the corridor?

You are right about one thing. I shoud not have said parts of the corridor will not get SBS. I should have said BRT. But you are wrong about everything else. You should not be comparing Woodhaven to the Second Avenue Subway. You shoud be comparing it to reactivating the nearby parallel rail line which would not cost $150 Billion. I believe $1.5 billion is the correct number.

 

While the first community outreach for SBS may have started in 2014, DOT has been studying it for a lot longer. It is an outgrowth of the Congested Corridors Study began in 2008 and initial funding for SBS was already in place well before 2014, more like in 2012. It is not projected for completion format least 2022. Given NYC's track record fr competing mass transit projects on time, 2030 is more realistic for BRT. So to call this "short term" is a joke. And don't go blaming the communities for the delay. If this project had been properly thought out, everyone would embrace it and there woud be no delay other than getting the funding.

 

Adding one mile detours to thousands of trips daily resulting from the proposed banning of left turns is insane and only one of the many problems with this proposal.

 

They have said nothing lately about extending the Q52.

[Lordsaitamaboss]

You are right about one thing. I shoud not have said parts of the corridor will not get SBS. I should have said BRT. But you are wrong about everything else. You should not be comparing Woodhaven to the Second Avenue Subway. You shoud be comparing it to reactivating the nearby parallel rail line which would not cost $150 Billion. I believe $1.5 billion is the correct number.

 

While the first community outreach for SBS may have started in 2014, DOT has been studying it for a lot longer. It is an outgrowth of the Congested Corridors Study began in 2008 and initial funding for SBS was already in place well before 2014, more like in 2012. It is not projected for completion format least 2022. Given NYC's track record fr competing mass transit projects on time, 2030 is more realistic for BRT. So to call this "short term" is a joke. And don't go blaming the communities for the delay. If this project had been properly thought out, everyone would embrace it and there woud be no delay other than getting the funding.

 

Adding one mile detours to thousands of trips daily resulting from the proposed banning of left turns is insane and only one of the many problems with this proposal.

 

They have said nothing lately about extending the Q52.

They can reactivate it as an extension of the queens blvd local. The catch build new ROW that links the local tracks by the jamacia yard to the rockaway ROW fortunately the area is nothing but trees. 

[JerBear]

I should have said BRT.

No. No one should ever talk about BRT on Woodhaven. I know why the politicians use the term. I know why advocates use the term. They have agendas and are calling it that to improve its image. I can't for the life of me figure out why you use the term, because you seem to not know what it means. If you mean bus lanes, say bus lanes! Come on. Are you trying to be sneaky or something? I don't get it. Unless, of course, you yourself are an advocate misleading and misdirecting by intentionally using vague terms to drum up support for your particular agenda. I would hope that a director of bus service planning or any professional transit planner would be careful to only use words that have specific meaning and can clarify instead of muddy the discussion. Please: define what you mean when you use the term 'BRT'.

When Lancman scared hundreds of people into thinking that they would lose parking spaces and driving lanes in front of their stores (the 300 people you like to mention came out against the Q44 SBS) he did it by misleading people. He used the idea that the route, the Q44, would be changed to imply that the streetscape throughout the entire corridor would be changed. At that meeting, DOT, NYCT, and the consultants were very clear that no areas had yet been chosen for bus lanes. They had a map that showed bus speeds by area, and said that if the buses already fly through the area then bus lanes won't help, so they won't put them there. And those areas were where these people had been mislead by Lancman. He claimed victory for something that DOT was never going to do in the first place. It got him points with his people. I have a friend who didn't join me at the meeting who thinks Lancman stood up on a chair to fight the impending bus lanes and won. He refuses to believe I was really there.

And no, not all of the 300 people there were against SBS.

So are you using the term BRT the Lancman way, in order to intentionally scare people and mislead them?

 

You shoud be comparing it to reactivating the nearby parallel rail line which would not cost $150 Billion. I believe $1.5 billion is the correct number.

I was referring to the huge budget the Governor propped up by announcing program after program after program leading up to the State of the State. It looks like he is willing to dedicate future taxpayer dollars to any little thing that tickles his fancy and the kitchen sink. But. Just not the RBB. That idea isn't interesting enough to get funding, even on the backs of future taxpayers. No one cares enough to spend a dollar on reactivating the rail there. Has any state legislation been proposed to even study reactivation? Tony Avella got the MTA half a million state dollars to do the North East Queens Comprehensive Bus Study. Can you and Phil get a legislator to put up the same to study reactivating the rail?

 

While the first community outreach for SBS may have started in 2014, DOT has been studying it for a lot longer... initial funding for SBS was already in place well before 2014, more like in 2012.

Studying is not the same as planning. When they started reaching out in 2014, they didn't have a plan. What they were talking about was a process, one that didn't go where it seemed to be going from then. Planning is different from studying because it involves real issues and friction. The North East Queens Comprehensive Bus Study: is that a plan or a study? Should we say that NYCT is planning a new terminal in Flushing because the study mentioned it?

And what funding? Has any money been spent yet on Woodhaven SBS? Maybe for consultants. When did the consultants get hired? What year was that? When did they start planning (probably not until after they were hired, maybe)?

 

2030 is more realistic for BRT.

No. There are no plans, no studies, no dreams of bringing BRT to New York City. Stop. I will be there on opening day whenever the city decides to get around to doing BRT. Either I will come up from Florida (since I will be long retired by then) or I will have my grandkids bring my ashes.

 

If this project had been properly thought out, everyone would embrace it and there woud be no delay other than getting the funding.

Really? Has there ever been a project that was well enough thought out that everyone embraced it? Please, I would love to see some examples. Especially of any projects you properly thought out. (And I mean multi-year, complex projects requiring capital funding and taking years to enact). Even the Apollo program had detractors.

[BrooklynBus]

To JerBear

 

You are seriously misinformed and have not read any of the materials on DOT's website if you believe that it is only politicians and advocates who are talking about "BRT." It is DOT who has continually spoken of installing "BRT" on Woodhaven. So stop accusing me of misleading and trying to confuse by referring to BRT. Put the blame where it belongs on DOT and the MTA who are using that term. If you claim what they are proposing is not real BRT, tell them not me. I am only reporting what they are they are telling everyone.

 

They are intentionally misleading and confusing people by using the terms interchangeably. Riders Alliance is adding to the confusing by claiming the MTA and DOT is proposing BRT from LaGuardia Airport to Howard Beach which is not at all what they are proposing. Riders Alliance is confusing the Pratt Institute's proposal with DOT's proposal.

 

DOT is delaying and redesigning their plan due to all the opposition which is for good reason. Now they are being extremely vague and are changing their plan, so no one knows exactly what they want to do.

 

I was not involved with the Q44, so I can't comment on your Lancman comments. I was only reporting on what I read in the meda.

 

Many care about reactivating the rail line and Goldfeder claims state money is available to study it, but the MTA is refusing to apply for it because that might jeopardize BRT which tey have signed on for. If you claim it is not BRT, why then are they spending somewhere between $231 and $266 million for it (if they can get the federal money they have applied for) and not the $15 to $20 million SBS would cost? So ask them to define BRT, not me. Phil is trying to get money to build the rail but that won't happen if the MTA won't agree to study it,

 

You ask if any money has been spent on SBS. Yes. All the DOT and MTA time for studying SBS during the past two years is being charged to the $20 million received thus far for SBS. They have at least one consultant whom i spoke to at several meetings. So several million dollars probably has already been spent. The Northeast Queens is a study until definitive plans are put forth. Same is true for a Flushing bus terminal.

 

So read the material before you go claiming there are no plans to bring BRT to NYC. If you claim it really isn't BRT, go and tell them and the world they are misleading everyone. Don't call me the guilty party.

[JerBear]

Why can't you just understand what I wrote without trying to change what I wrote and respond to that?

I swear I am trying, but you don't make it easy. So now I am going to try it the other way. I need to change what you wrote in order to respond to it because you seem to be confused. Let me do a little research first.

So read the material before you go claiming there are no plans to bring BRT to NYC.

Done. From the Woodhaven page at DOT: "The Woodhaven/Cross Bay Boulevards corridor was identified as a preferred location for Select Bus Service improvements through the DOT/MTA 2009 Bus Rapid Transit Phase II Study..."

Both terms are used in the sentence, but I am not confused. From another page: "Select Bus Service is New York City’s version of bus rapid transit..."

DOT and NYCT say they are bringing SBS to the corridor. They aren't saying that they are bringing BRT to the corridor. I am totally clear. BRT * NYC = SBS.

It's not until I read this that I get confused:

Also parts of the corridor may not get SBS or BRT...

I'm going to come back to this one in a minute.

If... it is not BRT, why then are they spending somewhere between $231 and $266 million for it...

Because it's still an improvement over the existing bus service.

...and not the $15 to $20 million SBS would cost?

See this is where everything goes off the rails. They are spending $20 million to turn the Q52 and Q53 into SBS. It will become SBS in, let's humor them and call it late 2017. They will declare that the Q52 and Q53 are now Select Bus Service, New York City’s version of bus rapid transit. The whole corridor, Woodside to the Rockaways. SBS.

So what will we get come late 2017 that will constitute SBS? First, let us name the kind of streetscape we find today along most bus routes that are not BRT.

Streetscape A1: No bus lanes, bus stop is at curb, customers pay on bus, no blue paint or fancy flashing lights

Now let us name the kind of streetscape that now exists from Dry Harbor to Metropolitan.

Streetscape A2: Bus lanes are offset, bus stop is at curb, customers pay on bus, no blue paint or fancy flashing lights

Then, after some paint and some plastic bollards and some curbs rebuilt and some shelters moved, in late 2017, as the routes are declared SBS, what will we have for the cost of $20 million? What will the result of the "short-term" project? I went and read the materials. There will be three kinds of streetscapes.

First are the Rockaways and Broad Channel and the area of the Q53 route north of Grand:

Streetscape B1 (similar to A1): No bus lanes, bus stop is at curb, customers pay before boarding, buses have pretty blue paint and fancy flashing lights

Here, SBS simply means off-board fare collection and fancier buses. This actually isn't any different from the April plans. Next, add those SBS elements to the areas that already have offset bus lanes and you have:

Streetscape B2 (similar to A2): Bus lanes are offset, bus stop is at curb, customers pay before boarding, buses have pretty blue paint and fancy flashing lights

This is what Howard Beach is getting, and it's what Howard Beach was getting in April's plans. The area from Dry Harbor to Metropolitan already has the bus lanes, and with the other SBS elements will become Streetscape B2 as well. The area from Queens Boulevard to Dry Harbor gets this treatment, which is a change because there are currently no bus lanes there. But this is a change from April's plans. This entire section, from Queens Boulevard to Metropolitan, which is now planned for Streetscape 2 in the short-term late 2017, was previously planned to be our next treatment:

Streetscape B3: Bus lanes run in the main roadway while avoiding the access roads, stop is at an island in the median, customers pay before boarding, buses have pretty blue paint and fancy flashing lights

Now the only area planned for Streetscape B3 in the short-term is Park Lane South to Liberty/Rockaway. It was supposed to be Queens Boulevard to Liberty/Rockaway. I am fairly certain after all of this research that this is what you mean by BRT. You are probably calling Streetscape B2 "SBS" and Streetscape B3 "BRT".

I'm just going to go ahead and put this here, but it's not in any of the plans. This is what these streetscape treatments would be like if they were actually doing full-fledged BRT:

Streetscape BRT: Busways run in the center of the overall roadway but are physically separated from the car lanes and include passing lanes so that express buses or local buses can pass BRT buses that have stopped at stations to pick people up, bus station (more than a stop) is in between bus lanes in the bus way and the platform is at the same height as the floor of the bus, customers pay before entering a fare control area that is physically separated from non-paid areas, buses have pretty blue paint and fancy flashing lights

So that stuff was all the short-term SBS scheduled for late 2017. They don't say too much about what we're getting for the additional $200+ million. Since the short-term stuff is all plastic and paint, I can assume that the long-term 2022 or whenever stuff is all concrete and steel. And the areas from Park Lane South up to Queens Boulevard will get changed from Streetscape B2 to Streetscape B3.

So now let's go back to the post from the other day.

Where did you get that idea? Nothing has been put on hold. SBS is moving full steam ahead.

What has changed is that BRT will not be implemented in one phase and may not encompass the entire corridor. Also parts of the corridor may not get SBS or BRT, but at least part of it will get SBS which is scheduled to be completed in 2018. Some of that SBS may become permanent and other parts of it will be converted to BRT after 2018. The entire project is now scheduled to be completed by around 2022.

Since the planning of SBS on Woodhaven began in 2012, the notion that SBS is "quick" or "short term" when compared to building a subway line is nonsense. Remember the first subway was built in only four years.

And now let's see how it would have been written if it had clarity and precision.

"Nothing has been put on hold. SBS is moving full steam ahead, with two phases of build out.

What has changed is that Streetscape B3 will not be implemented in one phase and will not encompass as much of the corridor as previously planned, initially. Also parts of the corridor will not get Streetscape B2 or Streetscape B3, but then again they never were planned to get those treatments. At least part of it will get temporary treatments as Streetscape B1, Streetscape B2, and Streetscape B3, which are scheduled to be completed in late 2017. Some of that temporary Streetscape B2 will be rebuilt through permanent construction, all of that temporary Streetscape B3 will be rebuilt through permanent construction, and other parts of temporary Streetscape B2 will be converted to permanent Streetscape B3 after 2017. The entire project is now scheduled to be completed by around 2022."

Goldfeder claims state money is available to study it, but the MTA is refusing to apply for it...

Avella didn't get the MTA to apply, he didn't even ask if they wanted to do it. He wrote the law, dedicated the money, gave them a deadline. Then he asked all his constituents to come out and tell the MTA what could be done to improve service. He put a form in his newsletter and then collected them and took them to the MTA. No politician is doing anything like that for the RBB.

[NewFlyer 230]

What is the big deal with SBS on the Q53/Q52. I know that residents are fighting because of the bus lanes and traffic but why is this project taking much longer than the other SBS routes? 2022 is another 8 years from now.

[JerBear]

What is the big deal with SBS on the Q53/Q52. I know that residents are fighting because of the bus lanes and traffic but why is this project taking much longer than the other SBS routes? 2022 is another 8 years from now.

Just doing the short-term will take until at least late 2017 if not 2018. Then they're going to study how well the short-term works (read: allow people to adjust to a new status quo and let BrooklynBus & friends see that it's not the nightmare that they predicted). Then they're going to rip up and rebuild the entire width of the street from property line to property line down to the utilities, all the way from Queens Boulevard to Liberty/Rockaway.

Have you ever been to Tampa? There's this road called Dale Mabry Boulevard that I swear was under construction, one portion or another, for more than 20 years.

[bobtehpanda]

Just doing the short-term will take until at least late 2017 if not 2018. Then they're going to study how well the short-term works (read: allow people to adjust to a new status quo and let BrooklynBus & friends see that it's not the nightmare that they predicted). Then they're going to rip up and rebuild the entire width of the street from property line to property line down to the utilities, all the way from Queens Boulevard to Liberty/Rockaway.

Have you ever been to Tampa? There's this road called Dale Mabry Boulevard that I swear was under construction, one portion or another, for more than 20 years.

 

Between damage from heavy road usage and damage from permafrost, most major roads in the City will get ripped up once every few years. How many times have they ripped up the approach to the Koscuizsko at this point?

[BrooklynBus]

To JerBer:

 

First point -- "I need to change what you wrote in order to respond to it because you seem to be confused."

 

No, you do not have the right t change what I wrote under any circumstances, and I am not confused at all.

 

You are drawing all your conclusions from DOT writings. Not only have I read what they wrote, I also attended over half a dozen meetings where additional information was given out and maps were presented that are not available on the web and I also heard Trottenberg speak in person at a City Council Hearing. I am drawing my conclusions from those sources as well.

 

You accuse me of not knowing what BRT is. I fully know what BRT is. What I don't know is what DOT is planning for Woodhaven, because no one knows that since their plans keep changing and what was once clear has now become very vague in their latest iteration. Until they decided to split the project into long and short term, the only thing that was up in the air was how Cross Bay was going to be treated (if a traffic lane was to be removed to accommodate a bus lane, or if the dedicated left turn lane would be removed. Also, DOT was unclear as to how many BRT elements would be included in the project because that depends on the amount of federal monies received.

 

DOT has been the one who has been muddying the waters by using both terms interchangeably from the beginning, So let me recap.  In 2003, DOT began studying bringing bus rapid transit to NYC and determined that virtually all possible places where it could be instituted could not accommodate it. So they created a term called SBS that would be a scaled down version. They implemented eight corridors costing between $6 million and $20 million each to implement. They proposed the same for Woodhaven and Cross Bay Boulevard and in late 2014 began holding public meetings and announced they would consider various alternatives.

 

In 2015, they announced that they would try something different for Woodhaven Boulevard. According to Trottenberg, at that City Hall hearing, she said they would try something "bigger and bolder" than traditional SBS costing $20 million. She called it "BRT" and stated that rough estimates placed the cost for it around $200 million. She did not claim it would be full fledged BRT (as you describe what it should be). She said that the amount of federal funding received would determine how many BRT elements would be included. She also stated there was a possibility that the project would begin as BRT and conclude as SBS.

 

DOT then developed three concepts and months later announced the one they had chosen. When the communities realized exactly what was involved opposition grew and DOT kept changing their plans. For example, I questioned how tractor trailers could negotiate a 270 degree left turn from Cooper westbound to Metropolitan eastbound which was the alternative they suggested to replace the current left turn from Woodhaven south to Metropolitan east.  When they realized it would be a very difficult turn for trucks, they changed their proposal so that Trotting Course Lane would become two way and a left turn from Woodhaven south would be allowed into Trotting Course south.

 

When Woodhaven residents began complaining about trucks being routed to residential streets around Jamaica, they realized that detouring trucks to residential Trotting Course may not be such a good idea and abandoned that part of the plan changing it once again to replace the newly proposed left turn onto Cooper with a left turn onto Furmanville instead which they previously proposed to ban. That turn causes a one mile detour for anyone currently turning left from Woodhaven north onto Metropolitan west.  That is only one of many problems with the current plan.

 

Another change they made is previously they proposed to rip out the newly installed bus lanes north of Metropolitan and move them one lane over and install new islands. That was proposed before the bus lanes were even installed. Now DOT states that in all likelihood, those bus lanes will remain where they are but the hours of operation will be extended to 24/7 from peak hours only. Absolutely there is nothing to be gained by extending those hours because buses will not save additional time during the off-peak hours. Residents are already complaining that the bus lanes have totally tied up traffic during the peak hours and that is sparking the increased opposition of the completion of the project.

 

Now let's get to the streetscapes. You stated: "You are probably calling Streetscape B2 "SBS" and Streetscape B3 "BRT".  Wrong. That is what DOT is calling BRT. If you would have attended any of the meetings, you would understand that. So yes, that is also my definition of BRT because it appears to be DOT's definition.

 

I understand what you are saying that it really isn't BRT and what you say BRT really is which is a center high level platform between two exclusive and separated bus lanes. You realize of course, for us to have that it would be necessary to purchase separate vehicles which doors on both sides like subway cars. The MTA does not want to do that. So if you claim that is real BRT and that is not what we are getting, your beef is with DOT, not with me.

 

"They don't say to much what we are getting for the additional $200+ million."

 

And that specifically is the exact problem. The need to perform a cost-benefit analysis to show that the benefits of spending $200+ million provides ten times the benefit of their $20 million plan. That is called transparency. It is deceptive to hold community meetings telling everyone they will spend $20 million, and later tell them we have decided on a $200 million plan instead without explaining the differences. What is the benefit to transportation of ripping out hundreds of trees and replanting new ones? What about the inconvenience during the five years of construction? Is it worth it? All that has to be considered".

 

"Also, parts of the corridor will not get​ Streetscape B2 or Streetscape B3, but then again they were never planned to get those treatments."

 

Not true. Except for Queens Blvd to Dry Harbor, and from Metropolitan to Park Lane South and Cross Bay Blvd, the rest of the Woodhaven/Cross Bay Corridor (not including the Rockaways, the Bridges and north of Queens Blvd), the rest of the corridor was supposed to get Streetscape B3. The project has now been scaled back so that B3 will only be between Park Lane South and Rockaway Blvd.

 

And B3 will be implemented in stages. By 2017 or 2018, the medians will be widened to accommodate only SBS and Express buses. That means initially only those buses can use the main roads. The locals will have to use the service roads until all the new bus stops can be completed in the medians which will not occur until 2022. So in effect, the project which was supposed to be completed in one phase has been delayed an d split into two phases, so it is not moving "full steam ahead."

 

Additionally, all the proposed left turn bans of which now there are 21 will not be put in place at the same time. DOT will instead test and monitor left turn elimination in groups to assess the impact before permanently banning them all which they still intend to do. This is being done to reduce the opposition. It only make sense if the bans are cumulative, not if they try say five at a time separately, then conclude that since the effects were minimal each time left turns at five intersections were banned, therefore they can now ban all 21 at the same time.

 

Also, when traffic is delayed after moving express and SBS routes to the main roadway, DOT can claim the delays are only temporary, and will not be a problem after all buses are moved to the main roadway. That wouldn't be true. What will happen is there will be fewer cars on Woodhaven because they will be diverted to residential streets and other already congested roadways where DOT will not be doing traffic counts such as the BQE, Pennsylvania Avenue, the Van Wyck, Lefferts Blvd, etc.

 

The MTA gave some nonsense excuse why they have not applied for funding to study the RBL. The truth is if it is studied, that would jeopardize DOT's BRT plan (and I will continue to call it BRT as long as DOT uses both terms interchangeably, because it certainly is not SBS costing one tenth of what they are spending.

 

It certainly will be the nightmare BrooklynBus and friends are predicting and will turn into what you have seen in Tampa, 20 years of endless construction. We can't afford that here.

 

Are you aware of all the complaints along the northern portion of Woodhaven where bus lanes are now in effect only during rush hours?

 

Are you aware that merchants and residents are up in arms over the exclusive bus lanes installed on Utica Avenue in anticipation of SBS. They claim traffic which was bad to begin with is now at a standstill?

 

Are you aware of how residents are organizing against the proposed B82 exclusive bus lanes and how DOT has abandoned plans to extend or change the B82 route that would give SBS a chance to succeed? How merchants along Flatbush Avenue are prepared to lie down in the streets if DOT even suggests bringing exclusive bus lanes to Flatbush Avenue?

 

I am not exaggerating when I say bus lanes 24/7 in the main roadway of Woodhaven will be a nightmare. In fact the BRT you propose with a center median between bus lanes with buses having doors on both sides and the ability for buses to pass stopped buses would be far better for traffic than what DOT is currently proposing now.

 

Lincoln was right when he said you can't fool all the people all the time. DOT has been telling half truths, lies and distortions. Do you realize that at every DOT presentation for every Select Bus Service, they have never stated in words that a lane of traffic will be removed. They only stated that a bus lane will be created. The public is finally wising up to their lies and distortions and by doing that, they are placing the entire SBS program in jeopardy. They need to plan with the public, not plan for the public.

[Lordsaitamaboss]

What is the big deal with SBS on the Q53/Q52. I know that residents are fighting because of the bus lanes and traffic but why is this project taking much longer than the other SBS routes? 2022 is another 8 years from now.

Must be lead in their water killing their brain cells. Q53/52 are just badly infrequent just add service and eventually add it there. These people opposing SBS are doing so cause of their fantasy rail line they want it all. So any thing to improve bus service they will oppose these are the fools that allowed local bus service to become as bad as 30 minute head ways (off-peak). Sad Q52/53 don't serve large swaths of intelligent people anyway. Remember the and lefferts fiasco same reason why service to JFK is so bad is why Q53/52 SBS is delayed.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Must be lead in their water killing their brain cells. Q53/52 are just badly infrequent just add service and eventually add it there. These people opposing SBS are doing so cause of their fantasy rail line they want it all. So any thing to improve bus service they will oppose these are the fools that allowed local bus service to become as bad as 30 minute head ways (off-peak). Sad Q52/53 don't serve large swaths of intelligent people anyway. Remember the and lefferts fiasco same reason why service to JFK is so bad is why Q53/52 SBS is delayed.

Well, I understand the left turn ban opposition, I will give them that. I think it's unjustified. However, I don't believe that a subway will be built because of opposition in the north, along the areas such line would serve. It will also take a much longer time than implementing SBS service. I like the concept of an SBS/BRT on Woodhaven, but maybe perhaps they could've looked into a better option for BRT/SBS on Woodhaven. I'm not opposed to an SBS on Woodhaven Blvd at all, but some points that the anti-SBS groups have made can be compromised at the very least. An SBS with the buses in the middle of the Boulevard, giving buses three lanes for the most part (except when approaching bus stations, which it narrows to two lanes, with the station occupying the space) would be IMO, a much better idea, and I would fully support that idea (more medians would be built, which takes up about 1-1.5 lanes that automobiles could be using under the current plan, while there wouldn't be the need for such medians in the "centered" plan). In order to enforce the 24 hour bus lane policy, I would make the bus lane direction contrary to the flow of traffic. Addition, this way allows for less money to be spent at making boarding stations. For the issue of SBS machines and the directions, they can always place them against each other (for each direction), and label where to pay if one is going north or south.

[BrooklynBus]

Must be lead in their water killing their brain cells. Q53/52 are just badly infrequent just add service and eventually add it there. These people opposing SBS are doing so cause of their fantasy rail line they want it all. So any thing to improve bus service they will oppose these are the fools that allowed local bus service to become as bad as 30 minute head ways (off-peak). Sad Q52/53 don't serve large swaths of intelligent people anyway. Remember the and lefferts fiasco same reason why service to JFK is so bad is why Q53/52 SBS is delayed.

You don't know what you are talking about. First of all, not everyone opposed to SBS is in favor of a rail line. Second, many stated at the November 30th meeting in Woodhaven, exactly what you stated, that all the Q52 and 53 needs is better service, not SBS and all the problems associated with it. So to say tey are against anything that improves bus service is incorrect. The people are quite intelligent. watch the video I posted in the other thread.

[Lordsaitamaboss]

Well, I understand the left turn ban opposition, I will give them that. I think it's unjustified. However, I don't believe that a subway will be built because of opposition in the north, along the areas such line would serve. It will also take a much longer time than implementing SBS service. I like the concept of an SBS/BRT on Woodhaven, but maybe perhaps they could've looked into a better option for BRT/SBS on Woodhaven. I'm not opposed to an SBS on Woodhaven Blvd at all, but some points that the anti-SBS groups have made can be compromised at the very least. An SBS with the buses in the middle of the Boulevard, giving buses three lanes for the most part (except when approaching bus stations, which it narrows to two lanes, with the station occupying the space) would be IMO, a much better idea, and I would fully support that idea (more medians would be built, which takes up about 1-1.5 lanes that automobiles could be using under the current plan, while there wouldn't be the need for such medians in the "centered" plan). In order to enforce the 24 hour bus lane policy, I would make the bus lane direction contrary to the flow of traffic. Addition, this way allows for less money to be spent at making boarding stations. For the issue of SBS machines and the directions, they can always place them against each other (for each direction), and label where to pay if one is going north or south.

That advanced form of SBS can work very well. But the rockaway beach line restoration can be diverted at forest park to connect to the QB local at 71st via the entrance from jamacia yards that would skip the northern areas that oppose the train that part can become a queensway.

[East New York]

Where did you get that idea? Nothing has been put on hold. SBS is moving full steam ahead.

 

What has changed is that BRT will not be implemented in one phase and may not encompass the entire corridor. Also parts of the corridor may not get SBS or BRT, but at least part of it will get SBS which is scheduled to be completed in 2018. Some of that SBS may become permanent and other parts of it will be converted to BRT after 2018. The entire project is now scheduled to be completed by around 2022.

 

Since the planning of SBS on Woodhaven began in 2012, the notion that SBS is "quick" or "short term" when compared to building a subway line is nonsense. Remember the first subway was built in only four years.

 

The same place I get 99% of my info. lol. Directly from the MTA. You are on the right path, but a few details have changed. Both the partial, and full implementation of SBS has been put on hold to re-evaluate traffic patterns, and the prospects of such long stretches where vehicles where not be allowed to make left-hand turns. However, there is a new schedule and updated timetable for the project. It's delayed a bit, and until further notice an official date has not been set. I've spoken to DOT's head guy in charge of SBS personally.

 

What they want to do now, is start off with what will be approved and have a learning period where they see how everything works, then move along to phase 2 or "the long-term project" based off the data they learned form phase 1 or "the short-term project."

 

Most of what you mentioned above has changed a bit, effective December 15th.

 

The project has been divided into 2. Short term, and long term. MTA is rethinking the long term portion of the project and is not exactly sure when it will be complete.

 

The new schedule is as follows...

 

• Spring 2016: Present draft 2017 short-term designs to the community at public open houses, community board and stakeholder meetings, and to riders on street & bus

 

• Summer 2016: Revise 2017 designs based on community feedback

 

•  Spring 2017: Begin implementation of short-term designs and begin process for long-term project

Basically they went back to the drawing board, and the final designs for both the short and long term portions of the project have not been complete. Thus putting off the SBS as they re-work the design of the SBS service for the route. This means we will not have anything definitive until at least after the Summer. 

 

So again, it has been put on hold until further notice, pending the outcome of the summer community feedback sessions. Articulated buses however will show up on the where or not SBS is ready when they arrive. It's expected to begin spring pic 2017, but again, this is subject to final design of the service.

[MHV9218]

Since the planning of SBS on Woodhaven began in 2012, the notion that SBS is "quick" or "short term" when compared to building a subway line is nonsense. Remember the first subway was built in only four years.

 

You know better than to make such a ludicrous false equivalency. I don't even know where to start with all the things wrong in that remark. A few that come to mind, however:

 

1) The first subways were built with appalling safety standards that led to the frequent deaths or workers and would never, ever be accepted by unions today

2) Technology is not even remotely similar in scope or complexity to what it was then

3) Modern single-station subway extensions (see 7 line) tend to require a minimum of a decade of work at a cost of approx. $1bil/mile

4) The 2nd Avenue subway has been under construction for about 50 years, which makes four years seem quite 'short-term'

5) Part of the reason the Woodhaven SBS has been so delayed has been thanks to community opposition from people like you. You can criticize it for your own made-up reasons, but you can't argue it's too slow when you are personally working to make it slower.