Rockaway Beach Branch

[MovingBlock]

perhaps the best way is to try to address transit capacity in this area by doing a real full BRT on Woodhaven Boulevard and then let the Queensway be built as a park...listen here for more. 

 

Your thoughts?

 

 

[Art Vandelay]

If you want to build a stub line through low density areas which will actually serve somebody on an existing right of way, reactivate the SI North Shore. 

 

[Deucey]

15 minutes ago, NoHacksJustKhaks said:

Little people would ride it and it'll only be none/little better than just taking nearby buses.

That's why very early on in this, I posted that it'd probably make more sense as a LRT to Nassau to reduce some traffic on the Belt/SSP and Cross-Island.

Why NYC would pay for something that would only benefit Hempstead I dunno, but that's probably the only viable use for it - as a LIRR feeder.

[Deucey]

5 minutes ago, Art Vandelay said:

If you want to build a stub line through low density areas which will actually serve somebody on an existing right of way, reactivate the SI North Shore. 

 

Better than the busway idea floating here, and as long as it's more reliable meeting the scheduled ferry than S40/44/42/52, I'm here for it.

[bobtehpanda]

21 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Better than the busway idea floating here, and as long as it's more reliable meeting the scheduled ferry than S40/44/42/52, I'm here for it.

The busway only makes sense because it would give the line a wider catchment. As it is half the North Shore catchment is in the harbor, and making people do bus+train+ferry doesn't really work.

[Wallyhorse]

14 hours ago, Deucey said:

Dunno, but the Flatiron Building happened; and that one in TSQ with the billboards.

And lest we forget, the best spite house in Boston...

So it can be done.

The TSQ one is empty (and has been for 25 years) because air conditioning requirements made it too cost prohibitive to rebuild.  That's why that building is basically just a billboard now. 

[LGA Link N Train]

12 hours ago, officiallyliam said:

Yeah, I don't have much desire to do build housing over the RBB anyway.

Was this supposed to mean something?

 

12 hours ago, NoHacksJustKhaks said:

 

Um what?

 

The word "Queensway" Speaks for itself. No point in trying to argue for something if anyone can already see the negatives.

Edited March 29, 2018 by LGA Link N train

[officiallyliam]

1 hour ago, LGA Link N train said:

 

 

The word "Queensway" Speaks for itself. No point in trying to argue for something if anyone can already see the negatives.

What, really, though are the negatives? It’s basically a park without public access right now, and the corridor has little merit as a subway line. As far as I’m concerned, we might as well allow people to walk on it.

[Deucey]

9 minutes ago, officiallyliam said:

What, really, though are the negatives? It’s basically a park without public access right now, and the corridor has little merit as a subway line. As far as I’m concerned, we might as well allow people to walk on it.

Or build one of those narrow gauge heritage railways like at Disney to make a tourist trap between it and Flushing Park...

[LGA Link N Train]

1 hour ago, officiallyliam said:

What, really, though are the negatives? It’s basically a park without public access right now, and the corridor has little merit as a subway line. As far as I’m concerned, we might as well allow people to walk on it.

Basically, I give up on advocating to use the RBB as subway service. No point in wasting my energy 

[Coney Island Av]

Damn is there something we can all agree on? The RBB has been nothing but controversy since page 7-8 of this thread. 

You all are forgetting the suburbs aren’t as dense as the cities, and the area has potential to develop. And abandoning the branch was inevitable since the LIRR was going bankrupt. The same case goes for the Myrtle and 3 Av ELs. 

But I forgot something. Could one of ya’ll pull up the ridership stats of The RBB before abandonment? It only got lower ridership near its end because service was limited and the  already took over the southern half. By now, density must’ve increased.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

16 hours ago, NoHacksJustKhaks said:

Im surprised some people still believe in this fantasy, cant believe there's 27 pages of argument here... Why exactly? Maybe im not getting something here.

The idea of it is that we can take old structures and use them again, but if the Rockaway Beach Branch is built, it'll have to be from the ground up, but those previous structures definitley cant last. Plus the MTA will have to update everything, create a new design for stations and who knows, they might pointlessly overspend on the project that doesn't hold much significance anyways. If they don't do all of this, then why would it be built at all? It's either you leave it the way it'll crumble or fix it up. But as I said before, it wont be fixed up since the area and stations aren't dense anyways, and doesn't have nearby influence of Manhattan, I mean, it's central-southern Queens. Little people would ride it and it'll only be none/little better than just taking nearby buses. This leads to major problems like trying to convince people to move to the area, upgrading old signals, etc...

I summed up most of the problems with this foamer eyecandy. And really want to ask why is this still a debated topic? I know it's my opinion, but undoubtedly a common one at that. 

 

Well in fairness, it did digress into discussion of other corridors more worthy of rail transit and how best to provide it (i.e., Fordham Rd subway vs. LRT). 

I’m not gonna lie. For the longest time, I wanted to see rail service return to the RBB and for it not to become a trail or a High Line wanna-be. I don’t like to see abandoned rail lines become trails - especially in cities - because often, trails quickly develop a fan base of their own and said fan base won’t give up the trail without a fight. But in this case, there are enough strikes against putting rail back on this corridor. Even making it an intra-Queens line seems to have its issues with connections to other transit services. What else is there to say?

[Deucey]

2 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I wanted to see rail service return to the RBB and for it not to become a trail or a High Line wanna-be.

Doesn’t mean it couldn’t, but it makes more sense IMO to restore it to its original purpose as a route for Nassau and outer borough-oriented services, but as a commuting supplement to the Parkways or feeder to LIRR - like most low-to-mid ridership rail lines are.

 

[officiallyliam]

18 hours ago, Coney Island Av said:

Damn is there something we can all agree on? The RBB has been nothing but controversy since page 7-8 of this thread. 

You all are forgetting the suburbs aren’t as dense as the cities, and the area has potential to develop. And abandoning the branch was inevitable since the LIRR was going bankrupt. The same case goes for the Myrtle and 3 Av ELs. 

But I forgot something. Could one of ya’ll pull up the ridership stats of The RBB before abandonment? It only got lower ridership near its end because service was limited and the  already took over the southern half. By now, density must’ve increased.

Firstly, the RBB isn't running through the suburbs. Yes, the areas are far less dense than many places in the city, and less dense than the areas of any other proposed subway project, but it's still denser than your average suburb. Just because the area isn't dense enough to warrant an additional subway line doesn't make it suburban.

And where exactly do you see additional space to develop along the RBB route? Again, while the area isn't as dense as Midtown or the South Bronx, there's not really any free space on the line build new developments - not to mention how strong the community opposition would be to that.

15 hours ago, Deucey said:

Doesn’t mean it couldn’t, but it makes more sense IMO to restore it to its original purpose as a route for Nassau and outer borough-oriented services, but as a commuting supplement to the Parkways or feeder to LIRR - like most low-to-mid ridership rail lines are.

The Port Authority tried in the late 90s to turn it into a roadway to ease access to JFK and relieve the Van Wyck. The community shot that idea down quickly, and understandably so. I could live with a rail line behind my house, but a highway? I'd rather not.

It could act as a shuttle line (an extension of the , maybe) between the Rockaways and Rego Park to feed the LIRR, but how many people would really use that?

[Deucey]

31 minutes ago, officiallyliam said:

The Port Authority tried in the late 90s to turn it into a roadway to ease access to JFK and relieve the Van Wyck. The community shot that idea down quickly, and understandably so. I could live with a rail line behind my house, but a highway? I'd rather not.

It could act as a shuttle line (an extension of the , maybe) between the Rockaways and Rego Park to feed the LIRR, but how many people would really use that?

I mean like how you look at LRTs, Commuter and Heavy Rail in the rest of the county and see they parallel major roads to relieve traffic (like 3 of MARTA's 4 lines parallel Interstates).

It'd be a build in Brooklyn, but at least from Flatbush to RBB to Jamaica or Mineola, it could be a useful traffic mitigation rail line for Nassau commuters that currently use the Parkways and get stuck at the SSP/Belt split.

Probably wouldn't get more than 70k riders/day in 20 years, but it could reduce traffic delays on the Belt, and that'd make it worth it.

[RR503]

Other cities use interstates as transit corridors because they frequently have wide medians and are noisy by themselves, helping to control NIMBY complaints. Otherwise, they’re terrible transit corridors — there usually are no shops/areas of economic density near them to generate street traffic (you’ll notice that interstate transit relies heavily on park-and-rides), they’re generally inaccessible without a long walk over the interstate, and they’re generally isolated by the nature of interstates taking the paths of least resistance from point A to B. 

[Deucey]

20 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Other cities use interstates as transit corridors because they frequently have wide medians and are noisy by themselves, helping to control NIMBY complaints. Otherwise, they’re terrible transit corridors — there usually are no shops/areas of economic density near them to generate street traffic (you’ll notice that interstate transit relies heavily on park-and-rides), they’re generally inaccessible without a long walk over the interstate, and they’re generally isolated by the nature of interstates taking the paths of least resistance from point A to B. 

But their design and aim is to take cars off interstates. RBB could be used for that, but it'd require building a line into Brooklyn to get people to not take the Belt/SSP, is what I'm saying.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Deucey

[RR503]

5 hours ago, Deucey said:

But their design and aim is to take cars off interstates. RBB could be used for that, but it'd require building a line into Brooklyn to get people to not take the Belt/SSP, is what I'm saying.

The SSP and Belt already have transit alternatives. For LIers, it's the LIRR, and for NYC residents, its the  and BMT Southern Div. Why duplicate an extant transit function? 

[Deucey]

1 hour ago, RR503 said:

The SSP and Belt already have transit alternatives. For LIers, it's the LIRR, and for NYC residents, its the  and BMT Southern Div. Why duplicate an extant transit function? 

 to Atlantic to get the LIRR vs get in the car and go to Garden City vs a train from Bay Ridge/Coney Island to Jamaica or a station in Hempstead. Time saver, air quality improver, transit efficiency.

If you have to use a ROW because it’s there, this is a better use than any other plan that doesn’t build a new Manhattan crosstown line.

[officiallyliam]

1 minute ago, Deucey said:

 to Atlantic to get the LIRR vs get in the car and go to Garden City vs a train from Bay Ridge/Coney Island to Jamaica or a station in Hempstead. Time saver, air quality improver, transit efficiency.

If you have to use a ROW because it’s there, this is a better use than any other plan that doesn’t build a new Manhattan crosstown line.

We could build the RX with a branch along the Lower Montauk to Jamaica to do that. What would be the alignment of your proposal via the RBB? I can't really visualize how you get from South Brooklyn to Jamaica or Nassau via the RBB, which points towards Manhattan.

[RR503]

The RX would be worlds better at getting folks from southern Brooklyn to the LIRR — connect at ENY. There doesn’t have to be a one seat ride from everywhere to everywhere. 

And yes, I understand that you’re making these plans under the assumption that a ROW’s existence merits its use, but I strongly object to that. 

[Deucey]

1 minute ago, RR503 said:

The RX would be worlds better at getting folks from southern Brooklyn to the LIRR — connect at ENY. There doesn’t have to be a one seat ride from everywhere to everywhere. 

And yes, I understand that you’re making these plans under the assumption that a ROW’s existence merits its use, but I strongly object to that. 

No, I’m making them under the assumption that every other plan for a ROW useless 60 years ago and hasn’t changed could have a slightly better than marginal usage if people bristle at the smarter option, the  “No Build” option. 

[Deucey]

8 minutes ago, officiallyliam said:

We could build the RX with a branch along the Lower Montauk to Jamaica to do that. What would be the alignment of your proposal via the RBB? I can't really visualize how you get from South Brooklyn to Jamaica or Nassau via the RBB, which points towards Manhattan.

86th/Shore to Avenue U to Gateway Center; abut the Belt to IND Rockaway, follow that and RBB to Jamaica Av over to Jamaica Station.

Doesn't use the whole ROW, but hits some bus-dependent and car-heavy areas to LIRR Mainline - which, given I used to be stuck in Hempstead-bound traffic on the Belt/SSP in the AM, could get a good amount of cars off the road during peak.

You could even make a spur from where it’d abut the Belt to go down Linden Bl into St Albans, route it up or diagonal from Springfield over to Hempstead Tpk to your choice of LIRR station in Garden Citu or Hempstead (town) proper.

[LGA Link N Train]

I got a rather unusual Proposal via RBB;   Rockaway Shuttle extensio n

The shuttle runs with the until Aqueduct Racetrack where a new platform would be built. North of Liberty it would make stops at 101-103 Avenues or Atlantic Avenue, Jamaica Avenue and Parkside-metropolitan avenue. North of that it Turns at Rego Park and meets with the LIRR Main Line. After that it makes 2 stops. One at Rego Park and One at Grand Avenue. After Grand Avenue, it turns northwest to connect with the Roosevelt Abandoned Platform and Terminates. Benefits? Well, if there's a delay at Elmhurst towards forest Hills, you can reroute one or two trains via RBB. But the main point is to be a feeder line. Now while this wouldn't be very beneficial, it would at least be something. Of course, Roosevelt should be redesigned to accommodate such traffic. I feel this line would do good in the summer time as it could be used as an advertisement for Rockaway Beach

[bobtehpanda]

17 minutes ago, LGA Link N train said:

I got a rather unusual Proposal via RBB;   Rockaway Shuttle extensio n

The shuttle runs with the until Aqueduct Racetrack where a new platform would be built. North of Liberty it would make stops at 101-103 Avenues or Atlantic Avenue, Jamaica Avenue and Parkside-metropolitan avenue. North of that it Turns at Rego Park and meets with the LIRR Main Line. After that it makes 2 stops. One at Rego Park and One at Grand Avenue. After Grand Avenue, it turns northwest to connect with the Roosevelt Abandoned Platform and Terminates. Benefits? Well, if there's a delay at Elmhurst towards forest Hills, you can reroute one or two trains via RBB. But the main point is to be a feeder line. Now while this wouldn't be very beneficial, it would at least be something. Of course, Roosevelt should be redesigned to accommodate such traffic. I feel this line would do good in the summer time as it could be used as an advertisement for Rockaway Beach

The QBL is crowded. It doesn't really need a feeder. And if it did need a feeder there are better lines and neighborhoods to feed from. Keep reachin'.