Rockaway Beach Branch

[Wallyhorse]

16 minutes ago, RR503 said:

"I'm not obsessed! I just have a passion!" 

Wally, if there is a forum that understands obsession, it's this one. You're obsessed. With hospitals, horse racing, the phrase "as I noted," and the letter T. 

Now, to address your claim about the supposed psychology of the Financial district, may I kindly request some contemporary evidence? Because having worked for/met/heard some of these "powers that be," they are under no illusion about Lower Manhattan's position in the city. Remember, they're the ones that created its situation -- they get where it is, and why it is there. 

This discussion, of course, ignores the fundamental flaws of the RBB as a corridor, but that's for a different day when we have learned not to use psychology and politics as crutches for failing arguments. 

Maybe it's just I've dealt with people who are more rigid and "stuck in their ways,"  and some I know still think of lower Manhattan the old way even if that is not the case.  The main thing is to get the line back up and running above all else.  

Edited May 27, 2018 by Wallyhorse

[Deucey]

41 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

The main thing is to get the line back up and running above all else. 

Except getting it up and running doesn’t actually benefit anyone since it has nowhere to go in Midtown and no one needs another train to the ghost town that is Downtown.

[CenSin]

1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said:

Maybe it's just I've dealt with people who are more rigid and "stuck in their ways,"  and some I know still think of lower Manhattan the old way even if that is not the case.  The main thing is to get the line back up and running above all else.  

Is your sample representative of the population of people who have any influence on subway planning?

[T to Dyre Avenue]

15 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

I never said to be an expert, I was simply using common sense. 

Common sense? LMAO 😆! Nearly everything you’ve posted in this thread can be defined as common sense. 

On 5/24/2018 at 1:56 PM, Lance said:

You keep using that word. I don't think you know what it means.

Couldn’t have said it better myself!

Edited May 27, 2018 by T to Dyre Avenue

[T to Dyre Avenue]

1 hour ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Common sense? LMAO 😆! Nearly everything you’ve posted in this thread can be defined as common sense. 

Couldn’t have said it better myself!

That should be ”Nearly nothing”...

[Deucey]

2 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Common sense? LMAO 😆! Nearly everything you’ve posted in this thread can be defined as common sense. 

 

45 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

That should be ”Nearly nothing”...

That’s not fair - @Wallyhorse is posting common sense. We’re just not agreeing with it.

All his detailed plans and proposals are using the common sense idea that everyone in this city should have the option of taking a train to Manhattan with minimal reliance on walking or busing to get to that train. There’s nothing wrong with that.

The part @Wallyhorse misses is that balance between giving everyone that access and minimizing their need to switch trains repeatedly to cover that last mile of their trip.

For context: years ago  was merged with  to make . When one of these threads discussed the  losing runs on QBL and losing skip-stop, I pitched reinstating  from 2 Av and running  from Met Av to Broad St to minimize service reductions.

As was pointed out, that overloads  at Delancey/Essex because of all the transfers to come from Jamaica line riders, ultimately messing up / service levels on QBL.

So I made the same well-intentioned mistake @Wallyhorse did - solving one minor problem by creating a greater problem.

He shouldn’t be beat up for doing that.

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, Deucey said:

 

That’s not fair - @Wallyhorse is posting common sense. We’re just not agreeing with it.

All his detailed plans and proposals are using the common sense idea that everyone in this city should have the option of taking a train to Manhattan with minimal reliance on walking or busing to get to that train. There’s nothing wrong with that.

The part @Wallyhorse misses is that balance between giving everyone that access and minimizing their need to switch trains repeatedly to cover that last mile of their trip.

For context: years ago  was merged with  to make . When one of these threads discussed the  losing runs on QBL and losing skip-stop, I pitched reinstating  from 2 Av and running  from Met Av to Broad St to minimize service reductions.

As was pointed out, that overloads  at Delancey/Essex because of all the transfers to come from Jamaica line riders, ultimately messing up / service levels on QBL.

So I made the same well-intentioned mistake @Wallyhorse did - solving one minor problem by creating a greater problem.

He shouldn’t be beat up for doing that.

The general difference is that you changed your mind. Some of those ideas of his are broken records that we've heard time and time again.

Like, this generally doesn't happen to people who are new who take criticism in stride. It's another thing to write it off with the same excuses we've heard 50 times before.

It's kind of like how this thread keeps being revived with the subtext of "Ignoring what everyone has said, what if we just reactivate this, because I live next to it and there's a Wendy's and my high school that I'd like to go to?"

[Wallyhorse]

7 hours ago, CenSin said:

Is your sample representative of the population of people who have any influence on subway planning?

Probably, however, as long as politics didn't play into this, I don't see why you can't either have the go to Rockaway Park or a revived  starting at 2nd Avenue go to Rockaway Park.  In such a scenario, I can see where on weekdays the runs 2nd Avenue-Rockaway Park while on weekends and late nights the runs Metropolitan-Rockaway Park.  Doing it with a revived likely allows for additional service on QB between QP and 63rd (and the possibly on that stretch late nights). 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

7 hours ago, Deucey said:

 

That’s not fair - @Wallyhorse is posting common sense. We’re just not agreeing with it.

All his detailed plans and proposals are using the common sense idea that everyone in this city should have the option of taking a train to Manhattan with minimal reliance on walking or busing to get to that train. There’s nothing wrong with that.

The part @Wallyhorse misses is that balance between giving everyone that access and minimizing their need to switch trains repeatedly to cover that last mile of their trip.

For context: years ago  was merged with  to make . When one of these threads discussed the  losing runs on QBL and losing skip-stop, I pitched reinstating  from 2 Av and running  from Met Av to Broad St to minimize service reductions.

As was pointed out, that overloads  at Delancey/Essex because of all the transfers to come from Jamaica line riders, ultimately messing up / service levels on QBL.

So I made the same well-intentioned mistake @Wallyhorse did - solving one minor problem by creating a greater problem.

He shouldn’t be beat up for doing that.

I disagree. It is fair, because it’s the same ideas, benefiting the same select areas of the city at the expense of others, being brought up for the same reasons over and over again. That’s not the way you run an inter-lined subway system like New York’s.

3 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Probably, however, as long as politics didn't play into this, I don't see why you can't either have the go to Rockaway Park or a revived  starting at 2nd Avenue go to Rockaway Park.  In such a scenario, I can see where on weekdays the runs 2nd Avenue-Rockaway Park while on weekends and late nights the runs Metropolitan-Rockaway Park.  Doing it with a revived likely allows for additional service on QB between QP and 63rd (and the possibly on that stretch late nights). 

The revived  from 2nd Ave-Houston St to the RBB is actually not a bad idea. The problem is it can’t fit on the 6th Avenue Local tracks with the existing  and  services. The  idea you posted upthread (from Whitehall to the RBB) is actually better because it would be just the  and  trains on the Broadway Local tracks and the 60th St Tunnel. Likewise, on the QB local tracks, it would be just the  and . That’s far less merging, so it would be possible to run more frequent service. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Wallyhorse]

11 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I disagree. It is fair, because it’s the same ideas, benefiting the same select areas of the city at the expense of others, being brought up for the same reasons over and over again. That’s not the way you run an inter-lined subway system like New York’s.

The revived  from 2nd Ave-Houston St to the RBB is actually not a bad idea. The problem is it can’t fit on the 6th Avenue Local tracks with the existing  and  services. The  idea you posted upthread (from Whitehall to the RBB) is actually better because it would be just the  and  trains on the Broadway Local tracks and the 60th St Tunnel. Likewise, on the QB local tracks, it would be just the  and . That’s far less merging, so it would be possible to run more frequent service. 

Thanks for reminding me.  I was thinking in terms if you ran 30 TPH on the local sixth avenue tracks, you ran the 15 TPH, 8 TPH and 7 TPH.  Obviously, everything would have to run smoothly for it to work (along with perhaps sending the via 63rd and running local on QB starting with 36th).

Otherwise, the  probably is the way to go, running Whitehall-Rockaway Park (34th to Rockaway Park late night unless the  returned to running all times between 95th and Astroia).  

[Lance]

You cannot have a service plan that requires everything to run like butter. It's destined to fail spectacularly; just look at Queens Blvd. Right now, the express tracks on that line are absolutely maxed out to the point that any problem there creates a cascading ripple effect downstream. You need wiggle room to compensate for these expected unplanned situations.

[Wallyhorse]

15 hours ago, Lance said:

You cannot have a service plan that requires everything to run like butter. It's destined to fail spectacularly; just look at Queens Blvd. Right now, the express tracks on that line are absolutely maxed out to the point that any problem there creates a cascading ripple effect downstream. You need wiggle room to compensate for these expected unplanned situations.

Right.  Another reason why I'm now back to the original plan of:

Returning the to 95th-Astoria (with if necessary in-service runs of any trains to Coney Island Yard running in service via Sea Beach or West End there and likewise any put-ins running the same route).

The becoming Whitehall Street-Rockaway Park (all times in this scenario since the would return to being the main line to Astoria).

The becoming the second line to Astoria, running weekdays 5:30 AM-10:30 PM there and other times to 96th Street-2nd Avenue.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 5/30/2018 at 1:11 AM, Wallyhorse said:

Right.  Another reason why I'm now back to the original plan of:

Returning the to 95th-Astoria (with if necessary in-service runs of any trains to Coney Island Yard running in service via Sea Beach or West End there and likewise any put-ins running the same route).

The becoming Whitehall Street-Rockaway Park (all times in this scenario since the would return to being the main line to Astoria).

The becoming the second line to Astoria, running weekdays 5:30 AM-10:30 PM there and other times to 96th Street-2nd Avenue.

By the time, we get around to rebuilding the RBB for service (if we do), there will be enough of the SAS built that it will need additional yard space. The mid-1990s study mentions the use of 38th St Yard in Sunset Park, Brooklyn, for storage of revenue service trains. This could also facilitate the return of the  to Astoria without completely rearranging service in South Brooklyn or needlessly over-serving the Sea Beach or West End lines. Then the  to the RBB would be a feasible plan (provided it can be determined that the ridership would be there to justify it).

It would also eliminate the need for the  to run to Astoria entirely, because the  would be able to provide all the service the Astoria Line needs. This way, we can eliminate the need for the  to switch from the express tracks to the local tracks at 34th St and the  can help out the  on 2nd Ave, where there will very likely be a need for it once SAS Phase 2 is open.

Edited May 31, 2018 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Wallyhorse]

5 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

By the time, we get around to rebuilding the RBB for service (if we do), there will be enough of the SAS built that it will need additional yard space. The mid-1990s study mentions the use of 38th St Yard in Sunset Park, Brooklyn, for storage of revenue service trains. This could also facilitate the return of the  to Astoria without completely rearranging service in South Brooklyn or needlessly over-serving the Sea Beach or West End lines. Then the  to the RBB would be a feasible plan (provided it can be determined that the ridership would be there to justify it).

It would also eliminate the need for the  to run to Astoria entirely, because the  would be able to provide all the service the Astoria Line needs. This way, we can eliminate the need for the  to switch from the express tracks to the local tracks at 34th St and the  can help out the  on 2nd Ave, where there will very likely be a need for it once SAS Phase 2 is open.

Absolutely.

That would be the logical outcome if it can be done, having both the and operate on the SAS and Broadway Lines until they break up in Brooklyn, with the back to Astoria and the  to Rockaway Park, since the can use Rockaway Park as its yard.  

[Lawrence St]

So you would only have one service on Astoria? And what’s yard would the  have access to huh?

[T to Dyre Avenue]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

So you would only have one service on Astoria? And what’s yard would the  have access to huh?

I thought I already stated that. Twice, in fact...

On ‎5‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 7:54 AM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Presuming 38th St Yard is set up to store and stage revenue service trains (which is actually being considered in the long-term SAS plans), the  can be moved there. Then (and only then), the  can run to/from Astoria full time and the  can go to QBL and possibly also the RBB. Then your plan actually would be a realistic plan - well, except that part about the  becoming the secondary Astoria service. The  would be able to run far more frequently than now, that there would no longer be a need for a secondary service in Astoria. The  could run express all the way in Manhattan and support the  on 2nd Ave seven days a week...

 

 

7 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

By the time, we get around to rebuilding the RBB for service (if we do), there will be enough of the SAS built that it will need additional yard space. The mid-1990s study mentions the use of 38th St Yard in Sunset Park, Brooklyn, for storage of revenue service trains. This could also facilitate the return of the  to Astoria without completely rearranging service in South Brooklyn or needlessly over-serving the Sea Beach or West End lines. Then the  to the RBB would be a feasible plan (provided it can be determined that the ridership would be there to justify it).

It would also eliminate the need for the  to run to Astoria entirely, because the  would be able to provide all the service the Astoria Line needs. This way, we can eliminate the need for the  to switch from the express tracks to the local tracks at 34th St and the  can help out the  on 2nd Ave, where there will very likely be a need for it once SAS Phase 2 is open.

 

[Lawrence St]

2 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I thought I already stated that. Twice, in fact...

 

 

You still haven't answered my question about Astoria. You can't just have the up there, it's ludicrous. 

[R68OnBroadway]

12 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

You still haven't answered my question about Astoria. You can't just have the up there, it's ludicrous. 

If the  runs to Forest Hills and the  runs to 96th, you can send the  to Astoria. You would have 15tph, more than what the  and  have combined up there. Fewer services on a line do not always equal less service. With the  up there you would also be able to shorten one of the most unreliable lines in the system, and with it off QBL it no longer is affected by any problems on the IND. (4th av is BMT)

Edited May 31, 2018 by R68OnBroadway

[Lawrence St]

2 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

If the  runs to Forest Hills and the  runs to 96th, you can send the  to Astoria. You would have 15tph, more than what the  and  have combined up there. Fewer services on a line do not always equal less service.

But one line has to be the Broadway Express and the other the Broadway Local.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

9 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

You still haven't answered my question about Astoria. You can't just have the up there, it's ludicrous. 

Yes, I have. Read my first quoted post. And no, it's not ludicrous!

[Lawrence St]

Just now, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Yes, I have. Read my first quoted post. And no, it's not ludicrous!

Yes, it is!

[T to Dyre Avenue]

2 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

But one line has to be the Broadway Express and the other the Broadway Local.

Yes, it is!

Why?

 

Edited May 31, 2018 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Lawrence St]

1 minute ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Why?

What do you mean why? That's how it's been for the past two decades or so! I hope you realize most of the Astoria riders before the return of the would always board the  because it was the sole Broadway Express.

[R68OnBroadway]

4 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

But one line has to be the Broadway Express and the other the Broadway Local.

Bay Ridge is another stub branch on Broadway. They don't have express service. They don't bitch about it.

Broadway express isn't really an express until 34th, and given that most of the jobs center between 34th and 59th, Astoria riders would only make an extra stop at 49th.

Edited May 31, 2018 by R68OnBroadway

[Lawrence St]

Just now, R68OnBroadway said:

Bay Ridge is another stub branch on Broadway. They don't have express service. They don't bitch about it.

Broadway express isn't really an express until 34th, and given that most of the jobs center are between 34th and 59th, Astoria riders would only make an extra stop at 49th.

Didn't know Bay Ridge was Astoria...