Brooklyn bus ideas for 2010 and beyond

[B35 via Church]

Let me explain why there should be a B86, or more generally why the routes should be straighter and less confusing.

 

You are correct. 86th Street in Brooklyn is not 5th Avenue in Manhattan and there are fewer tourists in Brooklyn. But bus travel should still be as easy as possible. You are also correct in stating that people are not getting off in masses at 13th Avenue to transfer for the B64. Let me tell you why.

 

When I did my origin destination survey in 1974 of 8,000 riders on those routes and a few others, I discovered that most people would only use a bus if they can make their trip using one or two buses. While many people are willing to use three or four subway trains in making a trip, this does not hold true for buses, probably because you are more exposed to the elements and less sure of when the next bus will arrive, unlike the trains which run pretty regularly except if there is a major delay or rerouting.

Good survey, and I don't dispute this...

 

People opt to take more trains to get to their destination moreso than taking a heap of buses to get to the same destination, simply b/c rapid transit gets ppl. where they need to go, quicker... traffic on NYC's "main" roads is far more worse than "train traffic"....

 

well that, and ppl. don't want to pay that extra fare if they take that "third bus"... it's not like SCT (for example) where one transfer can be good for xferring to the next two buses you may need, instead of only one....

 

We found that more than half the people make their trip using one bus or a bus and some combination of trains. About 30 to 40% used two buses. Only about 5% used three buses or more and virtually all of them were Kingsborough College Students coming from Staten Island. We surveyed 3 who used 5 buses each way. They represented about 20 people.

 

This is why you should strive to have the bus routing structure to be able to serve all trips with one or two buses. The only way to do this efficiently is to have a basic grid system. Any other configuration causes people to double back when making a transfer.

So if you want to go for example from 18th Avenue and 86th Street to let's say 95th Street and 4th Avenue area, you have four basic ways of getting there. 1- Take the B1, change for the B64 and walk from 86th Street to 95 Street. 2- Do the same thing, but change again for the B63 and pay another fare if you do not have an unlimited. 3- Take the B1 up to Bay Ridge Avenue and change for the B63 there. Yes, it is out of the way, but more people would choose this option than the obvious #1 or 2.

At this point, I guess my question to you is... why didn't the "B86" come to fruition back in the mid 80's when it was proposed? ...and the B1 spared in the process?

 

...and as for that scenario, All that would be unnecessary, though... You can accomplish that by taking one bus - the B8... Sure, you may have to wait somewhat longer for it, than the B1, but it sure beats taking two buses, or taking two buses & walking afterwards....

 

I said there were four ways (not counting taking a cab.) Another popular way would be to avoid the bus altogether, and take the B train to 36th Street and change there for the R. So you really cannot see the demand for an 86th Street route by looking for transfers at 13th Avenue. The only way is to try it.

 

Yes, there would be some opposition from regular riders using the current route and some would be inconvenienced, but I think, not as many as you may think.

I suppose.

 

Hudson River's idea may be the best, to try it as a limited and keep the current B1 as is at least for the time being.

Yeh, I can agree to that idea.... more than I can, gettin rid of the B1, and "filling in the blanks" with a 13th/14th av route... in conjunction w/ a "B86"...

 

The grid system idea is also why I flip flopped the B36 in 1978 to have it run basically along Avenue Z with another route basically on Neptune and Emmons (B4) not counting the diversion to Sheepshead Bay Station. Prior to 1978, the routes were (B21) Avenue Z- SBR-Emmons and (B36) Surf - Neptune - SBR - Avenue Z, which also caused indirect routing when transfering for example from Avenue Z west to Coney Island North if you were coming from Kings Bay. You had to first travel needlessly to Neptune to make the transfer.

Going solely on this information you provided, I can say that particular move worked out for the better... well at least IMO....

 

Also, I don't think the 13th/14th Avenue route is a nowhere route. if it runs as I proposed from 86th and 4th along 86th to 13th/14th, 39th to Cortelyou Road. It's certainly no less usefull than the current B16 which isn't exactly heavily utilized. Having that route pass Maimonides would increase ridership by 30%, I believe. If you look at the B11, more than half the people on that bus get off at Maimonides.

Your proposal is basically a 13th/14th av route, combined w/ about half of the *current* B23 routing, and an extension eastward.... you brought another route into the equation....

 

I think there are a few reasons why the B16 (in its entirety) doesn't get quite the ridership... one of which is due to the fact that it travels on 13th/14th av's... I'd say, heading NB, north of 60th st, it loses its importance... the unreliability of that route doesn't help matters either....

The consensus regarding proposals w/ the B16, is to straighten that route out so that it stays on Ft. Hamilton Pkwy...

 

Also, look at the transfer you are forced to make with the current routing of the B9 and B16. To transfer from 60th Street going west to 14th Avenue going north, you must make a 15 minute diversion to Fort Hamilton Parkway. Don't you think that type of travel discourages bus usage? That's 15 wasted minutes in additon to the 30 minutes to one hour you are already spending on making you trip.

 

I agree with the general point... anytime you have to walk a couple of blocks to catch a bus, can be discouraging....

 

But regarding the B9 & the B16... What is on 14th av. around 60th, etc. that is of importance (other than the homes of residents... or for the sake of discussion - "regular" riders)? Those 2 routes run perpendicular to each other on 60th/Ft Hamilton anyway; it's not like you can't directly xfer to/from them....

 

replies in red.....

[BrooklynBus]

"Why didn't the "B86" come to fruition back in the mid 80's when it was proposed? ...and the B1 spared in the process?"

 

Actually it was proposed way before then. In 1974, when I first proposed it to Community Boards 10 and 11, they were very enthusiastic and told us that they had been asking for such a route since the 1960s!

 

That was when four years later after scores of meetings with them, they finally agreed to the current B1 after a lawsuit. I believe they thought about it again in the 1980s when it was placed on the then new digital signs.

 

It was formally proposed again to the communities in 1993 as part of another study along with an F express in Brooklyn. They proposed to just flip-flop the B1 and B64, which I don't think would have been a great idea. They never proposed to scrap the current B1. But after about six months, budget problems arose and all the proposals from that study were just abandoned. The MTA claimed they couldn't afford any added costs. It was around then that they stated that any bus route improvements must be coupled with route eliminations to at least cover the cost of the extension. Of course that guideline did not apply to the subway routes, when Manhattan Bridge service was restored to four track operation.

 

"You can accomplish that by taking one bus - the B8 "

 

You are of course correct. I forgot about the B8 extension to 95th Street. I should have chosen a different example where that wouldn't be an option. But you still get the point.

 

"Your proposal is basically a 13th/14th av route, combined w/ about half of the *current* B23 routing, and an extension eastward.... you brought another route into the equation...."

 

I don't know why you are so opposed to this. I'm only proposing to fill in a nine-block service gap that doesn't exist today only because until 1936, there was no bridge over the Sea Beach tracks at 13th Avenue. And that bridge still would not exist today if not for a local businessman who fought for it. The City just never updated the bus routes when that change was made which it should have done. The original purpose of turning the trolley from 13th Avenue to Bay Ridge Avenue was to transport people to the 69th Street Ferry to Manhattan and Staten Island. Over the years, that connection has become less important. Most of school day, there is over twice as much service along 86th Street and Brighton Beach Avenue on the B1, than there is along Bay Ridge Avenue.

 

"But regarding the B9 & the B16... What is on 14th av. around 60th, etc. that is of importance (other than the homes of residents... or for the sake of discussion - "regular" riders)? Those 2 routes run perpendicular to each other on 60th/Ft Hamilton anyway; it's not like you can't directly xfer to/from them...."

 

The point isn't what is on 14th Avenue and 60th Street. Yes, if you are coming from or going to the west bound direction of the B9, it would not make a difference if you transfer at Fort Hamilton Parkway or 14th Avenue. But if you are coming from the eastbound direction, it is quite another story. You most ride three long avenue blocks past 14th Avenue, change at FTH, and then stay on the bus as it double backs along 56th Street back to 14th Avenue. That takes at around an extra ten minutes for no reason at all.

 

Of course this could be remedied by just moving the B16 from 56th and 57th Streets to 60th Street. When I first proposed a 13th Avenue route in 1975, that was the counter proposal offered by the TA to solve that problem. I compared the solution to like putting a band-aid on a wound that required stitches. Nevertheless, it would be better than nothing. So when I was discussing bus routes with the TA again in 2004, I mentioned it to them and they thought it was a fantastic idea. They even formally proposed it to Community Board 12.

 

Guess what? They hated it. Not because the idea is that bad. But because the TA never properly explained the reason for the change, to make an easier transfer. Instead they claimed the reason for the change was traffic congestion along 56th and 57th Street. OF course, there is none. In fact there is more traffic along 60th Street. So they came out against it. But guess what they asked for instead? A through route along Fort Hamilton Parkway passing Maimonides Hospital. Of course, again they were ignored.

 

Some of the reasons they were against moving the route off 56th and 57th Street were laughable. One person claimed that a bus driver along 57th Street once saved the life of a kid, so the route should be landmarked and never be changed.

[B35 via Church]

I don't know why you are so opposed to this. I'm only proposing to fill in a nine-block service gap that doesn't exist today only because until 1936, there was no bridge over the Sea Beach tracks at 13th Avenue. And that bridge still would not exist today if not for a local businessman who fought for it. The City just never updated the bus routes when that change was made which it should have done. The original purpose of turning the trolley from 13th Avenue to Bay Ridge Avenue was to transport people to the 69th Street Ferry to Manhattan and Staten Island. Over the years, that connection has become less important. Most of school day, there is over twice as much service along 86th Street and Brighton Beach Avenue on the B1, than there is along Bay Ridge Avenue.

Honestly, I'm more against a 13th/14th route than I am a "B86"... You yourself say you're proposing to FILL a 9 block service gap... "filling in the blanks" is exactly what I meant by that.... Other than that, what makes you think service along 13th/14th is so warranted?

 

Since we're talking about gaps, there would be a (much) larger gap in service b/w bay ridge pkwy (b4) & 60th st (b9) if the B1 were to be ousted along 13th.... a 13th/14th av route doesn't fix that problem....

 

Far as the last statement goes...

There's more service along brighton bch. av due to the B68 & the B1... Kcc students coming off the B1 (I find) ride it out to the brighton bch station, to the marlboro houses, or to 86th/stillwell junction.... I don't get the sense that folks (in bulk) embarking @ Coney Island hospital are really want service to the more "commercial" part of 86th st...

Sure you have non-students & non-hospital workers/vistors/patients (other riders, basically) that take the B1... How do we assess how many, or what percent of those people are coming from KCC (it's terminal to the east), that want service along 86th, past 13th av? Take a survey perhaps? Iono... it seems to me that you're still goin off that survey from 1974 - a whopping 25 years ago man.... I'm sure people's riding habits have changed.... Yes, that ferry connection is antiquated, but that doesn't mean the B1 doesn't have an importance at all b/w Shore rd/Mackay pl (western terminal) & 86th/13th....

 

As was said, a "B86" can be tried while keeping the B1.. how much will that cost the MTA, I don't know.... however, implementing a new route up/down 13th/14th, cortelyou/beverley,(all mostly residential areas btw), I think, would end up being a waste of money in the longrun... I don't get the sense that such a route would be as utilized by (potential) passengers... I'm sure you may have realized that at some point, which is why I think (in your proposal) you'd have it steal/share riders from the (current) B8 route along avenue D... But that's neither here, nor there....

[BrooklynBus]

"what makes you think service along 13th/14th is so warranted?"

 

I'm not sure I understand all of your points but let me say this. I never thought 13th/14th Avenue service would be heavily used which is why I only proposed 15 or 20 minute headways. The major reason I proposed it is that if the B16 is rerouted to serve all of Ft. Hamilton Parkway, something must replace it along 13th Avenue. You could go with Hudson River's Proposal to just move the B23 from 16th to 13th Avenue and discontinue service along 16th Avenue, or you could provide a through 13th Avenue Service. I just feel that it makes it much easier to plan a trip knowing there are north south routes (3rd, 5th, 8th, FTH, 13th, and 18th Ave routes, and crosstown routes, 50th St, 60th St, 75th St and 86th Streets than the current system. I would also add a route along 65th Street, maybe making it limited stop only.

 

I never proposed to eliminate the Bay Ridge portion of the B1 route adding a new gap. I had two thoughts on this. Either hook it up with the B23 or extend it eastward along 65th Street hooking it up with the B2.

 

"Sure you have non-students & non-hospital workers/vistors/patients (other riders, basically) that take the B1... How do we assess how many, or what percent of those people are coming from KCC (it's terminal to the east), that want service along 86th, past 13th av?"

 

I don't see how that matters. I would think very few people from the Kingsborough area would want to travel west of 13th Avenue or up to Bay Ridge Avenue. I would guess that most of the riders wanting 86th Street west of 13th Avenue would be boarding somewhere along 86th Street, because the average bus trip is about 2.3 miles.

[B35 via Church]

I never proposed to eliminate the Bay Ridge portion of the B1 route adding a new gap. I had two thoughts on this. Either hook it up with the B23 or extend it eastward along 65th Street hooking it up with the B2.

Ok, That was just the vibe I got throughout this whole discussion (gettin rid of the B1, for a "B86" & 13th/14th av route)...

Now that that's cleared up....

 

 

"Sure you have non-students & non-hospital workers/vistors/patients (other riders, basically) that take the B1... How do we assess how many, or what percent of those people are coming from KCC (it's terminal to the east), that want service along 86th, past 13th av?"

 

I don't see how that matters. I would think very few people from the Kingsborough area would want to travel west of 13th Avenue or up to Bay Ridge Avenue. I would guess that most of the riders wanting 86th Street west of 13th Avenue would be boarding somewhere along 86th Street, because the average bus trip is about 2.3 miles.

It matters b/c that's the difference in routing b/w the B1 & a "B86"...

Why opt to create another route otherwise, when the B1 already covers 86th SE of 13th?

 

I mean, why else would a through route on 86th be proposed?

[BrooklynBus]

As I stated, it is a very long trip from Bay Ridge to Manhattan Beach, about an hour. Since it's only about a 15 minute drive, the only people who would take a bus are those who have no choice. My neighbor for example makes the trip every day by taxi. So I believe few people would make the trip by bus whether you have the B1 or the B86.

 

But I feel, and I don't have any proof, that just as many people would want to go to the 86th Street Bay Ridge area as they would to the Bay Ridge Avenue area and it is much easier to travel with a grid system routing system than when you have routes that just go all over the place. It's much harder, expecially for the occasional rider to figure out where to transfer. They'd rather travel all the way to Downtown Brooklyn by train for a longer trip, than figure out how to make a shorter trip by bus. So it's not that much about people riding from one end of the route to the other.

 

"Why opt to create another route otherwise, when the B1 already covers 86th SE of 13th?"

 

I would only propose that if the B86 were a limited. Two local routes would be too expensive to operate. I really don't think the Bay Ridge Ave -86th Street connection is that vital, and you would need an O/D survey to determine that. You can't go by passenger counts on the bus.

[B35 via Church]

As I stated, it is a very long trip from Bay Ridge to Manhattan Beach, about an hour. Since it's only about a 15 minute drive, the only people who would take a bus are those who have no choice. My neighbor for example makes the trip every day by taxi. So I believe few people would make the trip by bus whether you have the B1 or the B86.

 

But I feel, and I don't have any proof, that just as many people would want to go to the 86th Street Bay Ridge area as they would to the Bay Ridge Avenue area and it is much easier to travel with a grid system routing system than when you have routes that just go all over the place. It's much harder, expecially for the occasional rider to figure out where to transfer. They'd rather travel all the way to Downtown Brooklyn by train for a longer trip, than figure out how to make a shorter trip by bus. So it's not that much about people riding from one end of the route to the other.

 

"Why opt to create another route otherwise, when the B1 already covers 86th SE of 13th?"

 

I would only propose that if the B86 were a limited. Two local routes would be too expensive to operate. I really don't think the Bay Ridge Ave -86th Street connection is that vital, and you would need an O/D survey to determine that. You can't go by passenger counts on the bus.

 

Most routes (at least here in NYC anyway) have around a 1 hour runtime....

 

But anyway I'm not as concerned with the type of routing system (whether it's a "hub & spoke", a feeder, or a grid system), than I am about altering/leaving alone, the routings of these routes to (aid to) taking ppl. where they have to go... in conjunction w/ the average commuter livin in a particular area....

 

Riding the route from one end to the other wasn't really the main point I was trying to make... The difference in ridership b/w where the two routes (the *current* B1 & a proposed "B86") would diverge, I think, is somewhat slim (compared to, the total yearly ridership of the current B1)... Also, what you'd be doing is making the (unreliable, IMO) B4 the only connection Bay ridge has w/ CI hospital.. and that route doesn't... really serve much of Bay ridge.... and please don't tell me connections to hospitals aren't that important.... That's one reason I'm so irate over the proposal for the B44 SBS (moving NB service along Rogers, instead of NY av... robbing ppl. of direct access to Kings County), but that's something else....

 

What you propose the "B1" do, I'm not really in favor of either... attempting to "straighten" routes isn't necessarily beneficial in aiding a rider's commute... sometimes it might make it worse... sometimes making that turn or two can be the difference in serving/connecting an entire neighborhood w/ subway service (or other bus routes)....

 

Again, I'm not saying a "B86" is a terrible idea... but OTOH, I simply don't agree w/ the current B1 having to be the sacrificial lamb so to speak, for the creation of such a route.... That's just gonna have to be one thing we disagree on...

[BrooklynBus]

"Also, what you'd be doing is making the (unreliable, IMO) B4 the only connection Bay ridge has w/ CI hospital."

 

Don't agree. I think the B86 would serve just as many people from Bay Ridge as the B1, just a different part of Bay Ridge.

 

"please don't tell me connections to hospitals aren't that important.... That's one reason I'm so irate over the proposal for the B44 SBS (moving NB service along Rogers, instead of NY av... robbing ppl. of direct access to Kings County)"

 

Quite to the contrary, I believe connections to hospitals are very important. But people forget, the B44 was never set up to serve Kings County Hospital. It only operates on New York Avenue, because Nostrand was made a one-way in the 1960s, I believe. I don't think the B44 should have been picked in the first place for SBS, but since it has, the local routes should be changed to compensate for the reduced service to Kings County Hospital, but the needed changes would be too major for the TA to deal with. KCH could use more service from Crown Heights which I covered on my website. I remember KCH as being the most heavily used destination on the B12 during the days I used to ride it. You can also tell by the number of dollar vans hanging out around the hospital that public transit there is deficient.

 

I would split half the B49 service to run the length of Ocean Avenue. With the proposed SBS, there will just be too much service on Rogers Avenue.

 

"attempting to "straighten" routes isn't necessarily beneficial in aiding a rider's commute... sometimes it might make it worse... sometimes making that turn or two can be the difference in serving/connecting an entire neighborhood w/ subway service (or other bus routes)...."

 

Totally agree. Wouldn't straighten routes in every instance. In fact, when the B36 was changed in 1978, the TA actually wanted it to run straight along Avenue Z going westbound without dipping down one block to Sheepshead Bay Station. I was the one who insisted that the route do that due to the numbers of people who use that Station. I think that for the first three days of operation, the route did go straight along Avenue Z without passing the station.

 

In the late 1970s, John Simpson was hired to run the TA. He got the job basically because of the favorable press he received praising his leadership in Denver where he straightened and simplified all the routes, making them much faster. Six months after he left, Denver discovered that his changes weren't that great after all. The buses were faster and cheaper to operate, but ridership also plummeted. When they were asked why they stopped using the buses, they responded, that straightening the routes left them too far from their destination or they were now too far from their home to use.

 

So you do have to be careful when doing that. You just can't look at a map and change the routes like they did in Denver. You have to know how people use the system, their habits, and reasons for and against taking the bus.

[B35 via Church]

"Also, what you'd be doing is making the (unreliable, IMO) B4 the only connection Bay ridge has w/ CI hospital."

 

Don't agree. I think the B86 would serve just as many people from Bay Ridge as the B1, just a different part of Bay Ridge.

 

86th st is more Ft. Hamilton than it is Bay Ridge.....

-----------------------------------

 

 

I don't think the B44 should have been picked in the first place for SBS, but since it has, the local routes should be changed to compensate for the reduced service to Kings County Hospital, but the needed changes would be too major for the TA to deal with. KCH could use more service from Crown Heights which I covered on my website. I remember KCH as being the most heavily used destination on the B12 during the days I used to ride it. You can also tell by the number of dollar vans hanging out around the hospital that public transit there is deficient.

 

I would split half the B49 service to run the length of Ocean Avenue. With the proposed SBS, there will just be too much service on Rogers Avenue.

Neither do I...

 

anyway, I think Flatbush av would benefit more from SBS than Rogers av would... there is a reason ridership on the B49 isn't as high as the B41's, the B44's, the B46's of the world... there's just about nothing on Rogers av (commercially) of interest.... I don't know how important local service on Ocean av was in the past, but from what I can depict, it sure has lost its importance now...

It's bad when LTD service for a route was created to enhance the commutes of college students.. worse, it doesn't even have LTD service towards Fulton st in the PM hrs... (what other LTD route than the 49 LTD, only has service in one direction like that?)

 

 

You have to know how people use the system, their habits, and reasons for and against taking the bus.

Exactly...

 

That's what bothers me, when people come up w/ proposals.. solely based on what the routing "looks like" on a map....

[BrooklynBus]

"I think Flatbush av would benefit more from SBS than Rogers av would... "

 

I disagree. You have to look at the system as a whole. All that it would accomplish on Flatbush Avenue would be to drag more people out of the subway and onto the bus. Is that what you really want to do?

 

Also, I think you would have some real problems implementing it on the congested portion of Flatbush Avenue between Lincoln Road and Clarendon Road.

 

Many years ago, the former head of bus planning was bragging to me how successful the Limited service was on the B41 because of all the added riders. When I asked him how many were not new riders but were diverted from the Nostrand Avenue Line because now they would stay on the bus all the way instead of taking the train and changing at Flatbush Avenue for the bus? He couldn't answer and was puzzled at the question, but he knew what I meant. I then concluded that I didn't think it was the fantastic success he thought it was.

 

I think local service on the B49 is heavier than ever, which is why they created the limited. I think it's only about four trips. If you've ever taken the B49, you'd know that it is incredibly slow. First of all the traffic on Bedford Avenue between Empire and Church is miserable and the bus is continually stopping to let people off and on at every block along Ocean Avenue fighting with the double-parked cars and missing the lights. It takes about an hour just to go from Manhattan Beach to Avenue J which I used to do with my mother when she couldn't walk the subway stairs. When I was a kid it seemed the buses skipped about every other stop.

 

There never was anything much along Rogers Avenue. The only reason there is a bus there today is when one of the trolley companies started service on Nostrand Avenue, another company saw how lucrative it was so it began operating on the street right parallel to it. Many of the routes today are embedded in history. There really is no reason for the Ocean Avenue bus to switch to Rogers Avenue and again that sends transferring passengers out of their way. If you are travelling north on Ocean Avenue and would like to go west on Church Avenue, you first have to make your way to Rogers, only to double back along Church Avenue. With the traffic on Church, an easy extra ten minutes added to your trip for no reason.

[B35 via Church]

"I think Flatbush av would benefit more from SBS than Rogers av would... "

 

I disagree. You have to look at the system as a whole. All that it would accomplish on Flatbush Avenue would be to drag more people out of the subway and onto the bus. Is that what you really want to do?

 

Also, I think you would have some real problems implementing it on the congested portion of Flatbush Avenue between Lincoln Road and Clarendon Road.

 

Many years ago, the former head of bus planning was bragging to me how successful the Limited service was on the B41 because of all the added riders. When I asked him how many were not new riders but were diverted from the Nostrand Avenue Line because now they would stay on the bus all the way instead of taking the train and changing at Flatbush Avenue for the bus? He couldn't answer and was puzzled at the question, but he knew what I meant. I then concluded that I didn't think it was the fantastic success he thought it was.

 

I think local service on the B49 is heavier than ever, which is why they created the limited. I think it's only about four trips. If you've ever taken the B49, you'd know that it is incredibly slow. First of all the traffic on Bedford Avenue between Empire and Church is miserable and the bus is continually stopping to let people off and on at every block along Ocean Avenue fighting with the double-parked cars and missing the lights. It takes about an hour just to go from Manhattan Beach to Avenue J which I used to do with my mother when she couldn't walk the subway stairs. When I was a kid it seemed the buses skipped about every other stop.

 

There never was anything much along Rogers Avenue. The only reason there is a bus there today is when one of the trolley companies started service on Nostrand Avenue, another company saw how lucrative it was so it began operating on the street right parallel to it. Many of the routes today are embedded in history. There really is no reason for the Ocean Avenue bus to switch to Rogers Avenue and again that sends transferring passengers out of their way. If you are travelling north on Ocean Avenue and would like to go west on Church Avenue, you first have to make your way to Rogers, only to double back along Church Avenue. With the traffic on Church, an easy extra ten minutes added to your trip for no reason.

 

...and I disagree w/ the notion that SBS along Flatbush av would drag more people onto a bus... the masses aren't going to abandon the 2 train for a B41 SBS - don't know how you figure that...

But yeah, the narrow-ness of Flatbush b/w Lefferts Gdns & Flatbush (the neighborhood) is, I think, one of the main reasons that it wasn't considered... Flatbush av, north of the Grand Army Plz. station could use/benefit from a bus only lane.....

 

Next...

No way did they create LTD service along the B49 b/c of it's increasing ridership... that is a fallacy... if anything, I think ridership over the years has somewhat decreased.... anyway, If ridership were increasing as a whole on that route, there wouldn't be LTD trips heading ONLY towards KCC (there's more than 4 trips btw)... and absolutely squat for the number of LTD runs heading towards Fulton st.... Why is that the case? If there's that great a disparity b/w how many people ride a route in one direction, compared to the other, then that is a major problem.....

 

I agree that, having B49's switch over from rogers to ocean isn't necessarily warranted....

But OTOH, I still don't think Ocean av needs a bus running the length of it either... I'm sure you know Ocean av features a host of apartment bldg's... very few stores along it.... Part of the reason why, I would only have the "BM" express buses solely running along the parts of ocean that they currently do... I don't get the sense that these ppl. really yearn for local bus service like residents of other areas tend to....

[Shortline Bus]

...and I disagree w/ the notion that SBS along Flatbush av would drag more people onto a bus... the masses aren't going to abandon the 2 train for a B41 SBS - don't know how you figure that...

But yeah, the narrow-ness of Flatbush b/w Lefferts Gdns & Flatbush (the neighborhood) is, I think, one of the main reasons that it wasn't considered... Flatbush av, north of the Grand Army Plz. station could use/benefit from a bus only lane.....

 

Next...

No way did they create LTD service along the B49 b/c of it's increasing ridership... that is a fallacy... if anything, I think ridership over the years has somewhat decreased.... anyway, If ridership were increasing as a whole on that route, there wouldn't be LTD trips heading ONLY towards KCC (there's more than 4 trips btw)... and absolutely squat for the number of LTD runs heading towards Fulton st.... Why is that the case? If there's that great a disparity b/w how many people ride a route in one direction, compared to the other, then that is a major problem.....

 

I agree that, having B49's switch over from rogers to ocean isn't necessarily warranted....

But OTOH, I still don't think Ocean av needs a bus running the length of it either... I'm sure you know Ocean av features a host of apartment bldg's... very few stores along it.... Part of the reason why, I would only have the "BM" express buses solely running along the parts of ocean that they currently do... I don't get the sense that these ppl. really yearn for local bus service like residents of other areas tend to....

 

Problem is there no alternative to put the B49. In other transit site i suggested the B49 run between Bedford between Forster and Avenue Z. However correctly you(B35)stated most of the NIMBYS homeowners along that area wont be happy. For the reason just leave the B49 along current route along Ocean.

[BrooklynBus]

...and I disagree w/ the notion that SBS along Flatbush av would drag more people onto a bus... the masses aren't going to abandon the 2 train for a B41 SBS - don't know how you figure that...

But yeah, the narrow-ness of Flatbush b/w Lefferts Gdns & Flatbush (the neighborhood) is, I think, one of the main reasons that it wasn't considered... Flatbush av, north of the Grand Army Plz. station could use/benefit from a bus only lane.....

 

Next...

No way did they create LTD service along the B49 b/c of it's increasing ridership... that is a fallacy... if anything, I think ridership over the years has somewhat decreased.... anyway, If ridership were increasing as a whole on that route, there wouldn't be LTD trips heading ONLY towards KCC (there's more than 4 trips btw)... and absolutely squat for the number of LTD runs heading towards Fulton st.... Why is that the case? If there's that great a disparity b/w how many people ride a route in one direction, compared to the other, then that is a major problem.....

 

I agree that, having B49's switch over from rogers to ocean isn't necessarily warranted....

But OTOH, I still don't think Ocean av needs a bus running the length of it either... I'm sure you know Ocean av features a host of apartment bldg's... very few stores along it.... Part of the reason why, I would only have the "BM" express buses solely running along the parts of ocean that they currently do... I don't get the sense that these ppl. really yearn for local bus service like residents of other areas tend to....

 

Maybe the masses won't abandon the #2 for the bus, but a significant number will. If you worked in Downtown Brooklyn and lived in Flatlands or Bergen Beach, would you continue to squeeze onto a crowded #2 after a tiring day of work and then change for the bus, having to wait again outside or would you just get a seat on a comfortable SBS that takes you home directly if the trip time were comparable or a few minutes longer?

 

If ridership on the B49 has decreased, that shouldn't be to hard to figure out. That info must be available. As for why there are no PM limited runs, it has nothing to do with the numbers of people riding in the reverse direction, but how spread out they are. My guess is that most people need to arrive for an 8 or 9 AM class, but leave school anywhere between 2 and 5 PM, so you don't have tha afternoon rush, or else more people choose to take the bus in the morning and the train back for whatever reason. No limited in the afternoon also encourages people to take the train.

 

Yes, Flatbush Avenue north of Grand Army Plaza could benefit from a bus lane. Current there is no parking at the curb during rush hours so it sort of is a bus lane, but not enforced. But you don't need SBS to have a bus lane. Just like I don't think you need SBS for priority signals.

 

Yes Ocean Avenue does feature a host of apartment buildings which is precisely the reason why it should have a bus. Commercial areas are not the only traffic generators.

[B35 via Church]

Maybe the masses won't abandon the #2 for the bus, but a significant number will. If you worked in Downtown Brooklyn and lived in Flatlands or Bergen Beach, would you continue to squeeze onto a crowded #2 after a tiring day of work and then change for the bus, having to wait again outside or would you just get a seat on a comfortable SBS that takes you home directly if the trip time were comparable or a few minutes longer?

You can word it however you like.... I'm still not convinced that SBS will cause people to abandon the train for a bus....

 

I'm sure there's a reason you particularly chose Flatlands & Bergen Beach.... anyway, there are plenty people that take the 2 that disembark the B41 @ the Junction... and like those people, I'd take the train to the B41 to get to said areas... I, myself, would not ride the 41 all the way to said areas....

 

If ridership on the B49 has decreased, that shouldn't be to hard to figure out. That info must be available. As for why there are no PM limited runs, it has nothing to do with the numbers of people riding in the reverse direction, but how spread out they are. My guess is that most people need to arrive for an 8 or 9 AM class, but leave school anywhere between 2 and 5 PM, so you don't have tha afternoon rush, or else more people choose to take the bus in the morning and the train back for whatever reason. No limited in the afternoon also encourages people to take the train.

..or ridership on that route isn't too great to begin with....

 

ehh, I (still) get the sense that someone w/ enough influence demanded that LTD service be ran heading towards the campus (preference over NEED)... I don't think it has anything to do rush hour vs. non rush hour....

 

You say you think local service on the B49 is heavier than ever, which is why they created the limited.... and now you're saying the reason there's no PM LTD runs has nothing to do w/ the numbers of people riding in the reverse direction?

 

Yes Ocean Avenue does feature a host of apartment buildings which is precisely the reason why it should have a bus. Commercial areas are not the only traffic generators.

Yeh, fully aware of that....

 

....and a bus that serves certain residential area(s) where the people generally don't use the service, is a waste...

[BrooklynBus]

Some clarifications. I never said that most people would choose to make the trip solely on the B41 rather than bus and train. All I was trying to say is that the better and faster you make the service on the B41, the more of an incentive there is for people to abandon the subway for the bus entirely. This would hold true for any route where the bus and train are in competition, including the B49.

 

The B49 isn't exactly a lightly traveled route. Certain guidelines must be met before limited service is started, and as much as I suspect the MTA in doing a lot of things they shouldn't do, I really doubt that the limited was started because of someone with influence. The college may have suggested it, but if it weren't working out or if people complained, it would have been discontinued.

 

Yes I said that no PM LTD runs has nothing to do w/ the numbers of people riding in the reverse direction. But that isn't a contradiction to anything else I said. You put limited in when there is a heavy concentration of riders travelling a long distance. You would do it in the morning if there are 1000 (made up number) people going to school between 7 and 9 AM. but not in the afternoon if the same 1000 people are returning over a 5 hour period, for example, between 2 and 5. I'm saying that the concentration of riders between 7 and 9 AM has to be as great between 4 and 6 PM or another given 2 hour period. If the concentration is the same during the PM,then you are correct and it should also run in the PM.

 

Why would you think that the residents of the apartment houses along Ocean Avenue where there currently is no service, would not use the service if it were available?

 

"and a bus that serves certain residential area(s) where the people generally don't use the service, is a waste... "

[B35 via Church]

"and a bus that serves certain residential area(s) where the people generally don't use the service, is a waste... "

 

Why would you think that the residents of the apartment houses along Ocean Avenue where there currently is no service, would not use the service if it were available?

 

What would be the upside of it? It wouldn't aid/help those riders commutes either way.....

 

Along the stretch where there is no service along Ocean, most those ppl. (who don't have a car, of course) either walk to the subway, or to Flatbush av for the B41 or the dollar van... along Church av, I see evidence of this everyday while on the dollar cab... there are a bunch of people that walk to the church av station, or to Flatbush av... and it's been that way for YEARS... As far as buses go, they use the B41 for north-south travel... The B49 doesn't really take ppl. in that area where they need to go.... IMO, it has a little to do w/ demographics....

 

of course, the more south you go down ocean (where there is B49 service), the more apt people are to taking the next connecting bus, to the subway (the B6/11, B9, etc)... the B41 & the dollar van aren't NEAR as important... plus, F'bush grows further apart from Ocean anyway....

[BrooklynBus]

What would be the upside of it? It wouldn't aid/help those riders commutes either way.....

 

As I previously explained, for one thing, it simplifies route planning and makes transferring easier. Going north on Ocean no longer requires you to travel east to Rogers if you want to go westbound. Also would offer a new transfer to the B16 at Caton, which is not available on Rogers. I would also have it turn eastward to Empire Blvd to Utica Avenue where again there is a gap on Empire Blvd that needs to be filled. I lived in that area for 25 years and can't tell you the number of times I needed to use a bus on Empire Blvd that was not there, so instead we walked two miles or used some other circuitous route.

 

 

Along the stretch where there is no service along Ocean, most those ppl. (who don't have a car, of course) either walk to the subway, or to Flatbush av for the B41 or the dollar van... along Church av, I see evidence of this everyday while on the dollar cab... there are a bunch of people that walk to the church av station, or to Flatbush av... and it's been that way for YEARS...

 

Of course, that would be how they would travel because those are their only options.

 

As far as buses go, they use the B41 for north-south travel... The B49 doesn't really take ppl. in that area where they need to go.... IMO, it has a little to do w/ demographics....

 

You said it yourself, "The B49 (along Rogers-Bedford, I assume) doesn't take people where they want to go." Can you think of any logical reason why the B49 should turn off Ocean and onto Rogers/Bedford other than that is the way the trolley used to go (Rogers/Farragut/Ocean)? I see it as a needless routing complexity. But I didn't propose to eliminate the B49, because it would probably meet with resistance, so I proposed a new B50 that would be limited along Ocean Avenue.

 

 

of course, the more south you go down ocean (where there is B49 service), the more apt people are to taking the next connecting bus, to the subway (the B6/11, B9, etc)...

 

I don't agree. east/west travel to the Nostrand and Brighton Lines from the east is just as important all along those lines. There are many B12 transfers to Nostrand and fewer to Brighton. Same holds true for the B35 which also has many transfers to those subway lines. Those transfers are just as heavy as the B6/11, B9, etc. That's how I remember it. If they aren't as important today, then it is only because the dollar vans have taken the traffic from the buses, not because of a lower demand.

[B35 via Church]

As I previously explained, for one thing, it simplifies route planning and makes transferring easier. Going north on Ocean no longer requires you to travel east to Rogers if you want to go westbound. Also would offer a new transfer to the B16 at Caton, which is not available on Rogers. I would also have it turn eastward to Empire Blvd to Utica Avenue where again there is a gap on Empire Blvd that needs to be filled. I lived in that area for 25 years and can't tell you the number of times I needed to use a bus on Empire Blvd that was not there, so instead we walked two miles or used some other circuitous route.

So this Ocean av proposal is more a personal thing.... Now I understand....

 

There aren't many people that wish to make that commute you're speaking of... at least, as far as I can see... things are much different now than they were 25 yrs ago.... no sense in implementing an extension that few people will be open to using.....

 

 

Of course, that would be how they would travel because those are their only options.

....Which is more sufficient than a route travelling up/down Ocean...

 

 

You said it yourself, "The B49 (along Rogers-Bedford, I assume) doesn't take people where they want to go."

 

Can you think of any logical reason why the B49 should turn off Ocean and onto Rogers/Bedford other than that is the way the trolley used to go (Rogers/Farragut/Ocean)? I see it as a needless routing complexity. But I didn't propose to eliminate the B49, because it would probably meet with resistance, so I proposed a new B50 that would be limited along Ocean Avenue.

Nope... I meant it's stint along Ocean....

 

I don't support the current B49 route, either... but my best guess would be, to fill a service gap, as to why it has the routing that it does.....

 

Nor do I think Ocean av needs 2 routes going up/down it... that to me is a waste of resources....

 

I don't agree. east/west travel to the Nostrand and Brighton Lines from the east is just as important all along those lines. There are many B12 transfers to Nostrand and fewer to Brighton. Same holds true for the B35 which also has many transfers to those subway lines. Those transfers are just as heavy as the B6/11, B9, etc. That's how I remember it. If they aren't as important today, then it is only because the dollar vans have taken the traffic from the buses, not because of a lower demand.

You totally misconstrued what I said in that quote...

[BrooklynBus]

There aren't many people that wish to make that commute you're speaking of... at least, as far as I can see... things are much different now than they were 25 yrs ago.... no sense in implementing an extension that few people will be open to using........

 

Don't know why you would think people wouldn't use it today. I think running the Ocean Avenue bus on Empire Blvd makes perfect sense, and sending the B43 to Kings County Hospital makes more sense than Prospect Park. It only goes there because once there was demand from Williamsburg to Ebbets Field. Another accident of history like the B49 turning onto Rogers.

 

 

Nope... I meant it's stint along Ocean.... ...

 

So you don't believe Ocean Avenue even needs a bus route?

 

 

Nor do I think Ocean av needs 2 routes going up/down it... that to me is a waste of resources.... ...

 

When I was talking about 2 routes on Ocean Avenue, I wasn't proposing to double the service, just a slight increase.

 

 

You totally misconstrued what I said in that quote...

 

So what was your point about connecting bus routes?

[B35 via Church]

It's gonna come to a point where we're gonna end up talking about each brooklyn route... regardless, let's continue this:

 

 

Don't know why you would think people wouldn't use it today. I think running the Ocean Avenue bus on Empire Blvd makes perfect sense, and sending the B43 to Kings County Hospital makes more sense than Prospect Park. It only goes there because once there was demand from Williamsburg to Ebbets Field. Another accident of history like the B49 turning onto Rogers.

 

Anywhere around KCH (kings county hospital)/Downstate, I think, is a terrible place to terminate buses... I'm looking @ your proposal, you got the B12 AND the B43 terminating @ KCH (along Clarkson, no less)... The main entrances to both those hospitals are on Clarkson... You don't want buses (or any vehicle for the matter) impeding emergency vehicles.... it isn't like the VA hosp. in the bronx, or seaview in SI, or VA hosp in brooklyn where there's an area for buses to pickup/discharge passengers.....

Two, you shun way more riders by sending the B43 to KCH, than those that would benefit from it... That connection to the Prospect Park station is important... It's not really about connecting service to get to the physical park itself... you should see the students (and other riders) that use the B43/48 in that area to get to that station...

 

 

So you don't believe Ocean Avenue even needs a bus route?

Outside of service to KCC, no, I don't....

 

HudsonRiver mentioned the gap b/c CI av & Nostrand av (which is one reason why I think this route wasn't changed over the years)... But of course, that area of Brooklyn has enough political influence to keep the route afloat.. so the reality is, that route is going nowhere... I'm fully aware of that.

 

 

When I was talking about 2 routes on Ocean Avenue, I wasn't proposing to double the service, just a slight increase.

I understand.... but you would still have two local routes running along an avenue that doesn't need be.... the *current* headways of the B49 are justified IMO...

 

 

So what was your point about connecting bus routes?

 

I said:

of course, the more south you go down ocean (where there is B49 service), the more apt people are to taking the next connecting bus, to the subway (the B6/11, B9, etc)...

 

you said:

I don't agree. east/west travel to the Nostrand and Brighton Lines from the east is just as important all along those lines. There are many B12 transfers to Nostrand and fewer to Brighton. Same holds true for the B35 which also has many transfers to those subway lines. Those transfers are just as heavy as the B6/11, B9, etc. That's how I remember it. If they aren't as important today, then it is only because the dollar vans have taken the traffic from the buses, not because of a lower demand.

-------------------

 

I was referring to:

a] the current xfer options for riders along Ocean av, and

b] what they would be more apt to xfer-ing to, if your "B50" were to exist....

 

I just can't see someone coming from Midwood or Homecrest, riding along Ocean, to (really really want to) xfer to the B35, for example.... The B44 is far more important in South Brooklyn than the B49 is... Maybe the opposite was the case back in the 70's/80's or w/e, I don't know.

 

Continuing on, It doesn't make sense for someone living in the area of F'bush, let's say, Ocean/Ditmas (where there is no local service), to wait for, and take a bus to Ocean/Church, for a connection to the B35 to the subway.... when it would take said persons about the same amt. of time to just walk to the nearest subway station (which, in this example would be, Newkirk av).... and I think virtually no one would want to xfer from Ocean av, to the B23....

[BrooklynBus]

"The main entrances to both those hospitals are on Clarkson... You don't want buses (or any vehicle for the matter) impeding emergency vehicles.... "

 

I don't see how emergency vehicles would be impeded. All loading and unloading of emergency vehicles are done off street on the hospital's property, at least for KCH. I believe Downstate's Emergency facilkities are on one of the numbered streets.

 

"That connection to the Prospect Park station is important... "

 

Of course you would have to an O/D survey before making a major change like that to see what other alternatives exist for the major trips.

 

"of course, the more south you go down ocean (where there is B49 service), the more apt people are to taking the next connecting bus, to the subway (the B6/11, B9, etc)..."

 

I still don't get it, but let's just forget this one.

 

"The B44 is far more important in South Brooklyn than the B49 is... "

 

That's because it is a feeder to the IRT and the number of students using it to get to Sheepshead Bay High School. But the B49 is also an important route in its own right.

 

"It doesn't make sense for someone living in the area of F'bush, let's say, Ocean/Ditmas (where there is no local service), to wait for, and take a bus to Ocean/Church, for a connection to the B35 to the subway.... when it would take said persons about the same amt. of time to just walk to the nearest subway station (which, in this example would be, Newkirk av).... and I think virtually no one would want to xfer from Ocean av, to the B23.... "

 

I wasn't talking about transferring to the B35 to transfer again to the subway, but to take it to other places it goes like Kensington, northern Borough Park and Sunset Park. And yes, few people would want the B23 because of its poor headway and limited destination opportunities which doesn't have to be the case, but now it's not even an option.

[B35 via Church]

I don't see how emergency vehicles would be impeded. All loading and unloading of emergency vehicles are done off street on the hospital's property, at least for KCH. I believe Downstate's Emergency facilkities are on one of the numbered streets.

 

Emergency vehicles have to get to a loading area BEFORE they can unload patients inside hospital property... How do they do that? They travel along Clarkson av the majority of the time.... Emergency vehicles doesn't have to load/unload ON Clarkson, only for them to them to be impeded by buses....

 

 

That's because it is a feeder to the IRT and the number of students using it to get to Sheepshead Bay High School. But the B49 is also an important route in its own right.

Apparently not as much, if you think/propose another route should be added along Ocean av... you yourself say that you see the current 49 as a "needless routing complexity".....

 

 

I wasn't talking about transferring to the B35 to transfer again to the subway, but to take it to other places it goes like Kensington, northern Borough Park and Sunset Park.

You asked me what my point was in a prior quote, and I explained it...

 

Again, I don't see many people wishing to do that.... Something else we're gonna have to disagree on....

[BrooklynBus]

"Emergency vehicles doesn't have to load/unload ON Clarkson, only for them to them to be impeded by buses...."

 

Clarkson Avenue is wide at that point. Yes there is some congestion there, but I really don't see how adding some layover space would make anything worse. It has no more traffic than in front of other hospitals, for example Maimonides.

 

But the B49 is also an important route in its own right.

 

When I said that, I was thinking primarily of the portion along Ocean Avenue. I don't see a need for that route above Empire Blvd.

[UlmerPark B6]

B49 is a inportant route especially for school kids, there are many schools along the routes, that connect with major bus lines like B82, or B6, and the B41, I either take the or the B49 to school each morning and afternoon.

[B35 via Church]

"Emergency vehicles doesn't have to load/unload ON Clarkson, only for them to them to be impeded by buses...."

 

Clarkson Avenue is wide at that point. Yes there is some congestion there, but I really don't see how adding some layover space would make anything worse. It has no more traffic than in front of other hospitals, for example Maimonides.

The B11 doesn't layover, or even stop in front of the main entrance of Maimonides, but that's besides the point....

 

Traffic along Clarkson wasn't the basis of the point I'm trying to make.... I know how "wide" clarkson is, I live only 3 blocks away from it...

 

If you don't see how having buses layover in front of hospitals (especially in front of the main entrances of them) would make anything worse, then I don't know what else to tell you....

 

 

But the B49 is also an important route in its own right.

 

When I said that, I was thinking primarily of the portion along Ocean Avenue. I don't see a need for that route above Empire Blvd.

lol...

 

riders north of flatbush av make up most of that morning crowd heading towards KCC..... you're not terminating buses full time on empire blvd (I know YOU didn't say that... just saying...)...

 

in the AM, most everyone else are already on the B/Q heading towards sheepshead bay for the B49...

 

 

B49 is a inportant route especially for school kids, there are many schools along the routes, that connect with major bus lines like B82, or B6, and the B41, I either take the or the B49 to school each morning and afternoon.

I don't doubt that.... During the rush, Students make up the majority of the riders on that route along ocean anyway... well that, and the few elderly riders that use that route....