Brooklyn bus ideas for 2010 and beyond

[Shortline Bus]

So here my ideas to improve Brooklyn for 2010 by creating new routes and merge or cut underpeforming ones.

 

 

Now the the Brooklyn routes ideas. **Warning this is long.*

New Routes are in red. Service expansions is in blue. Cuts is in black.

 

 

 

B1 is slightly reduced to have 8-10 minutes headways rush hours and 15-20 minutes weekday middays/weekends most of time. More service along 86th with creation of new B86 line. SEE B86 for details.

 

 

B4 is shortended to Sheapshead Bay station. New main route operates between East 16th St/Ave. Z-Sheapshead Bay "B & Q" subway station and 77th Street/4th Avenue 'R" train. Rush hours only westbound B4 is extended to NY waterways ferry(B11 Sunset Park terminal) on 1st Ave/58th Street via BAY RIDGE Parkway, 2nd Ave/Narrows Ave and 57th/58th Sts.

 

 

B4 Route is too long IMO. Replaced by new B5 service.

 

"New" B5 replaces the B4 in Sheapshead Bay and new Knapp Street bus service. Thanks to guys at CBT.(committee for Better Transit for this idea)Oprates 5am-1am Monday-Saturdays and 7am-11pm Sundays.

 

B5 Operates between Stillwell-Coney Island and Avenue U-East 71st Street.

 

Eastbound B5 route. stillwell, Neptune, Shepshead Bay Rd, left on Jerome Ave, Ocean Ave, back onto Emmons, Knapp, Gerristean, Avenue U to terminal at East 71st.

 

Westbound: Avenue U, left onto Gerrtistean, Knapp, Emmons, the Sheapshead train station, Neptune, West 5th, (serve DMV office-Motor Vechiles/Walgreens shopping center) Surf, end at Stillwell Bus Terminal.

 

B7-Restructured to run between Myrtle-Wyckoff(helps B26)and Avenue H-Utica. Extended to CI Ave-Kings Highway weekdays only 6am-9pm.

 

New B7 route. Wyckoff, Halsey, Saratoga, Lenox, Kings Highway.

 

B12-shortened to run only between Bway Junction and Parkside/Ocean Aves subway station. Still based on the few times i railfanned the B12 at most maybe 3-4 riders per trip ride the entire B12 from Clarkson-Cypress Hill area(ie Euclid & Liberty) that why i think the B12 should end around Penn/Liberty Aves.

 

Q112 is extended via Liberty between Cross Bay/Woodhaven and Penn Ave and replaces the B12.

 

 

 

Liberty Ave portion replaced by extended Q112.

 

Change at Bway Junction for Q112 service along Liberty to Cypress Hill and Southwest Queens/Jamaica.

 

B15 create limited stop service on JFK buses both directions rush hours. B15 Limited runs between Fulton St and Elderts Lane/Linden Blvd.

 

B16 runs on Ft Hamilton Pwy full length between 39th Street and 60th Street. B23 replaces the B16 for 13th/14th Avenue service.

 

B17 extended to Woodhull Hosptial via Garvey/Albany(south-east bound) and Lewis/Troy(northbound).Southbound B17: Garvey/Albany, St John Place, Utica then existing route to Seaview/East 108th.

 

 

B17 now only operates all times between Canarise (Seaview-East 108th St)and Woodhull Hosptial(Flushing Ave 'station' at Bway.)

 

B80 replaces the Padegdant B17 branch. see B80

 

Southbound B17: Garvey/Albany, St John Place, Utica then existing route to Seaview/East 108th.

 

B19-New Limited Stop service between Flatbush/Nostrand Junction and JFK Airport. Again thanks to CBT for this great idea.

 

Route: Flatbush, Avenue K, Flatlands, (FYI: does not stop at Rockaway Parkway station)Van Sicklen, Linden, Conduit, (stops at Cross Bay/Conduit to connect with Q53/21/41)then non stop to Terminal 4-JFK.

 

B23 is expanded and runs between Church/Nostrand station and Va Hosptial. B23 now runs 6am-Midnight Monday-Saturdays and 7am-11pm Sundays.

 

New B23 route

Nostrand(westbound)Rogers(eastbound)Beverly, Flatbush, Courtleyou, Danhill, 39th Street, 13/14th Avenue(between 39th and 60th Streets)14th Avenue(both ways between Cropsey and 60th Street) Va Hosptial.

 

 

 

B24-Gone. Replaced by new B30 and Q104-See B30 for details.

 

B25 overnight is elimanted- Use or B26 between Adams and Vanderbelt for late night service.The B25 loses (unless can correct me) from times i driven in that part of Brooklyn late night only had at most 5 passengers between 1-5am. That why i suggested overnight B25 should be canned.

 

 

 

B30-New Willamsburgh Plaza-LGA Aiport route replaces the B24 southern end via the Kosciusko.

The B30 should run between LGA and Williamsburg Plaza via B24 Kosciusko Bridge/BQE branch(non stop between Meeker Ave and 82nd St/GCP)then along the M60 route to/from LGA.

 

Q104 replaces the B24 along Greenpoint Ave for Williamsburgh-Sunnyside service.

Q104 is extended to WBP via current B24 Greenpoint Ave branch. Routing: Greenpoint, Franklin St//Kent Ave, Broadway and WBP Plaza(q59 terminal)

Purpose of Q104 via Greenpoint/Kent Ave.

a)aprovides bus service along Kent Av a growing resdential area in North Brooklyn that currently does not have bus service.

b)elimantes redudancy in current B24 'zig-zag' Greenpoint-Sunnyside-Williamsburgh service without losing service.

c)new bus service to LGA aiport from North Brooklyn.

 

 

B31 is reduced to running daily 530am-1am Monday-Saturdays and 7am-12 Midnight Sundays. Some of the proposed bus cuts in the doomesday budget was very good ideas and warranted. Meanwhile routes like The B83, B49 and several other deserve all night service more than the B31.

 

 

If the B5 is not created then this alternative. Extend the B36 via Kings Plaza (mill ave/Avenue U)every 20-30 minutes(every 2-3rd bus similar to current B20 Fresh Pond Rd service)

The B3 especially rush hours/weekends is SRO between the "Q" subway station and Kings Plaza. That why i propose either a new B5 via Knapp or extend the B36 to/from Kings Plaza.

 

 

 

B37 is reduced to running Monday-Saturdays 5am-1am and Sundays 7am-11pm. Ridership is dead on late evenings/overnights on this line and a waste of MTA monies/manpower.

The (extended to 57th St overnights under my separte plan)

and B63 are alternative overnight routes.

There was enough ridership(i used it alot when i still lived in Brooklyn 4-5 years ago)to keep it running as a full time 7 day a week route.

 

 

 

 

Merge the Q59 and B39 for through route between Lower East Side and Rego Park via Williamsburgh Bridge. This maybe controversial but merge the Q59 and B39 to run between Rego Park and Lower East Side(Allen St)

I would oringally suggest the B46 or B44 limited or SBS to combine with the B39 but chances this would a diaster when traffic is jammed on the Williamsburgh Bridge.

Advanatges of a Merged Q59/B39 merger.

 

a)24/7 access to the Lower East Side and provides alternative to overcrowded "L" train for residents in East Wlliamsburg(Bushwick Ave area from Grand-Flushing Aves)Bushwick and Maspeth. Also all night local bus for Western Queens areas in Maspeth/Glendale, Elmhurst and Rego Park.

 

b)Lower East Manhattan have a 1-seat bus ride to Queens Center Mall and Queens Blvd area.

 

c)More options for ADA riders.

 

 

Rename the B41(Bergen Beach) the B40 but route remains the same.

 

B42 is expanded to East 108th St/Seaview at all times after circling and service the Canarise piers. Gives Remsen Village for first time 24/7 access to the "L" train at Rock Parkway.

 

 

B45 is extended to Broadway Junction via Liberty and Penn Aves.to serve the projects near Mother Gaston.

 

 

Merge the B51 with the B65. Taking two underused and lower passenger usage and increasing them. Weekdays 7am-11pm Merged B51/65(called the 51)runs between City Hall-Park Row and Ralph Ave-Rutland Road "3' subway station. The current B65 terminal on Ralph and St Johns is middle of nowhere.

 

All other times new B51 runs between Jay/Fulton Mall and East 98 St station.(Ralph & Rutland)

 

Main reasons for mergering the B51/65.

1)Almost none of the subway stations in area either Fulton(A/C lines) or Eastern Parkway(3/4) are wheelchair and ada accessible.

 

2)provides alternative to the A/C and 3/4 lines during unexpected disruptions for Crown Heights, Ocean Hill and Prospect Heights residents.

I don't know the traffic/road situation in that area, but I will admit it's not a bad idea having the B65 serve the 3 train... But sending this to manhattan I'm not so in favor of... that route is utilized by mostly elderly folks; don't want them standing longer than they already have to for a bus....

 

B-52 changes. The first is the route is extended to Fresh Pond Road/67th Ave "M" subway stop.(Fresh Pond bus depot)via Gates Avenue.Second B52 change. To ease congestion at Tillary/Camden Plaza West 'terminal', the B52 terminal is relocated to Court St/Livingston(B37/45 terminal)

 

Create new B54 rush hour headways is increased and Myrtle Ave limited stop is created for rush hours only.

 

Possible B54 limited stops.

Myrtle/Flatbush

Vanderbilt

Classon Ave/Pratt Instiute

Nostrand Ave

Garvey/Lewis Ave

Broadway("J/M" lines)

All stops to/from Wyckoff.

 

 

B57 is extended to 69th St/Grand in Maspeth to provide transfer to Q67 and Q18.

 

B61 'short trips rush hours' northbound(Queens Plaza bound) starts/ends at Box St.(current B43 terminal)

 

 

New B62 between Williamsburgh Plaza and East Midtown(34th Street between 2nd and 3rd Avenues) via Midtown Tunnel. Part of expanded bus service plan before it was cancelled due to current ecomonic crisis.

 

 

[B]B64- Merge the B64 and B70 to run between Sunset Park and Coney Island. Late Night between 86th St/3rd Avenue and Stillwell Terminal.[/b]Routing B64.Existing B64 route between Stillwell Terminal and 14th Ave/Cropsey. Then along Cropsey ext(serving Brooklyn VA Hosptial)7th Avenue, Ft Hamilton Parkway, then along current B70 to 39th Street.86th Street service between 13th Avenue and 4th Ave. replaced by new B86.See B86 for more details..

 

Advantages of merged B64/70(renamed B66)1)Direct bus between Sunset Park and most of SW Brooklyn(Bensonhurst, CI, Bay Ridge, etc)

2)Altenative to "D and N" riders during g/o' between Coney Island and 36th Street/Sunset Park.

3)Direct access for Bensonhurst, CI and Bay Ridge a 1-seat ride to/from VA Hosptial.

I didn't like this idea yrs. ago when (whoever) proposed it, and I still don't like it now... This plan absolutely screws Bath av riders of (direct) R train service, and shopping along the commercial strip along 86th st... ridership has grown over the past couple yrs on the B64... I think that route is fine as is...

 

B67 is extended to The serve Dumbo area at all times ending at Fulton Landing/Furham St.

 

B69 is extended to Boro Park-62nd Street and New Urtecht via McDonald,

16th Avenue and 60th Street. B23 is rerouted to run down 13/14th Avenues.

 

B70-Merged with B64. See B66.

 

 

B71 extended to serve South Ferry. Another expansion propsal of MTA service a victim of the recession.

 

B74-end weekend service. Use the B36 for Saturday/Sunday service.

 

 

B75-Extended to Parkside/Ocean Ave via Prospect Park Southwest and Parkside Ave. Also end B75 overnight service. Use nearby "F" train or B67 service between 1-5am.

 

 

B77-extended to Prospect Park west-19th Street(Bishop Ford HS)at all times to provide an added 9th St bus service to the B75. In addition the B77 is rerouted between 2nd Avenue and Smith Sts(via 13-14th streets) to serve the Pathmark/Home Depot on Hamilton Ave.

 

 

B80-renumbered B17(Paerdegat Ave)branch with expanded weekday hours of 6am-11pm. Route stays the same.

 

 

B82 gets rush hour only limited stop service between Rockaway parkway and Coney Island Ave/KH. Use new B19 for through east-west Flatlands Ave service between Fountain Ave and Flatbush.

 

 

B84 new rush hour only 'Spring Creek-East NY express' line starting at Seaview/Penn. Runs non stop between New Lots/Penn Ave and Broadway Junction. Use B83 or B20 all other times.

 

New B86 runs daily 6am-Midnight between Manhattan Beach-Kingsborough College and Shore Road-101 st Street. this is a split route of the B1 bus.

 

 

 

B103. Expanded service to run 7 days a week 6am-11pm. Late evenings(monday-fridays 10pm-Midnight and saturdays 8-11pm) and all trips Sunday/Holidays runs only between Flatbush/Nostrand and East 94th St/Flatlands.Also becomes weekend alternative to B17/(B80)Paerdegat service.

 

 

MTA Bus/NYCT Manhattan Express Buses

Bm1-New Sunday service with 90 minute headways opearting 7am-6pm.

 

Bm2-Ditto with BM1 sunday service 7am-6pm. Extended all trips Sundays and Monday-Saturday evenings after 9pm to/from Starret/Spring Creek Towers when the BM5 is not running.

Agreed.

 

BM4-Reduced to operating peak direction only weekdays. To Manhattan 6am-12 Noon and to Gerritsen Beach 1pm-9pm.

 

 

End Sunday X27/28 service. Ridership is almost nill on Sunday X27/28 that why i think ending Sunday/Holiday service. About 2 months ago i was visiting an old family friend in Brooklyn and i boarded a CI-Bound X28 leaving 57th St at 405pm on a Saturday. By time we got to Battery Tunnel, the bus was about 50-60% full about 35-40 passengers on those MCI cross country coaches. IMO that enough to warrant Saturday X27/28 service.

 

 

X28-all off peak trips start/end at Sea Gate/Coney Island.

 

 

Reactions/comments please?

[Luis1985]

i like that idea of the B75 being extended to Parkside/Ocean Av train station. it gives me less travel time to operate between Flatbush and Red Hook, but still keep it 24/7.

[UlmerPark B6]

I like all of the ideas except B4, a lot of people go to Bay Acedemy and Sheepshead Bay High, so no one wants to walk that long.

[Luis1985]

make the B16 run 24/7, and extend B35 route to JFK Airport (LTD During the day, Local at night.)

 

keep B25 to operate the way it does now. its safer along Fulton St instead of people having to walk to a nearby station stop.

 

extend B12 bus between Parkside Av/Ocean Av station to the Church Av station via Parkside Av and Fort Hamilton Parkway (towards Church Av station), via Caton Av and Parkside Av (Bway Junction Bound)

 

B1/B86 combination sounds good. B1 LOCAL B86 LIMITED.

 

Extend S53 bus to IKEA in Red Hook, all times and Extend the S79 to Lutheran Hospital (55 St/1 Ave) via 3 Av.

[Shortline Bus]

make the B16 run 24/7, and extend B35 route to JFK Airport (LTD During the day, Local at night.)

 

keep B25 to operate the way it does now. its safer along Fulton St instead of people having to walk to a nearby station stop.

 

extend B12 bus between Parkside Av/Ocean Av station to the Church Av station via Parkside Av and Fort Hamilton Parkway (towards Church Av station), via Caton Av and Parkside Av (Bway Junction Bound)

 

B1/B86 combination sounds good. B1 LOCAL B86 LIMITED.

 

Extend S53 bus to IKEA in Red Hook, all times and Extend the S79 to Lutheran Hospital (55 St/1 Ave) via 3 Av.

 

 

Wait a minute Luis? Are you aware the S53 is already a busy line that sometimes has bus bunching issues? Extending the S53 to Ikea and that almost Downtown Brooklyn. Do you want long delays on the S53 the only 24/7 Brooklyn-SI bus route? Ditto for the S79.

 

Instead a new SI/Downtown Brooklyn express bus makes much more sense.

 

Plus i hear SI may in next year or so may get their own Ikea store as well. Also many SI residents already drive and go to the Ikea in Elizbaeth NJ.

 

No No Luis on the S79 and S53 extensions:tdown:. The other proposals you listed is not bad ideas and much more realistic.

[jacsnyy]

The most sensable one I saw was the B64/B70 merge. I'd love the B71 extention. I disagree about the B31. I think it needs overnight service because it's the only bus serving the area. You compared it to the B49, but the B49 doesn't need it, because the Q train, B44, B68 all run parralel and in some proximaty. The B31 has nothing around it. Other ideas I like are the B75 extention, and I can live with the B5 idea as long as B3/B41 Bergen Beach service isn't cut.

[R32 3348]

How about cut the B2 and merge the B100/B31?

[S78 via Hylan]

The B16, B37, B71, and B77 ideas make sense to me.

[Shortline Bus]

The B16, B37, B71, and B77 ideas make sense to me.

 

 

thanks.

[B35 via Church]

Looks like ppl. like the idea I had for the B75...

The sole purpose behind it, was to make travel easier from one side of prospect park to the other.... B68

 

Anyway, you got more opinions posting your ideas on this forum!

Good to see different ppl's points of views.

 

Instead of re-commenting on the ideas, I'll just reply on some of the replies.....

 

 

I like all of the ideas except B4, a lot of people go to Bay Acedemy and Sheepshead Bay High, so no one wants to walk that long.

 

eh, it isn't the best of terminals over there by the Sheepshead bay station... However, I fail to see what altering the B4 route would do for Sheepshead Bay high school students...

 

I would have the 36 terminate w/ the 44, giving sheepshead bay residents slightly more frequent service than the 4 would ever provide, on over to the subway station... while the B4 gets sent down to KCC, serving it, Bay Academy, on up to Av Z (still serving the sheepshead bay station), continuing on 'Z, etc etc.... instead of having it travel along the dead zone that is Neptune av...

 

make the B16 run 24/7, and extend B35 route to JFK Airport (LTD During the day, Local at night.)

 

keep B25 to operate the way it does now. its safer along Fulton St instead of people having to walk to a nearby station stop.

 

extend B12 bus between Parkside Av/Ocean Av station to the Church Av station via Parkside Av and Fort Hamilton Parkway (towards Church Av station), via Caton Av and Parkside Av (Bway Junction Bound)

 

B1/B86 combination sounds good. B1 LOCAL B86 LIMITED.

 

Extend S53 bus to IKEA in Red Hook, all times and Extend the S79 to Lutheran Hospital (55 St/1 Ave) via 3 Av.

 

- B16 doesn't have the ridership for 24/7 service...

- That B12 idea you posted, is just what Hudson River posted on another forum... I still say the B12's western terminal is good where it is... B12's (especially during the rush) gets SRO off that one stop alone...

- The 86th st idea has been floating around for years now... I dunno, the more I think about it, the more I don't think it's necessarily needed....

- Extending S53's & S79's anywhere further north than where they currently travel in Brooklyn is nothing more than unrealistic.... Same goes for that B35 idea.... I could maybe... maybe see a case for sending it to New Lots on the L, but not all the way to JFK... Let the B15 take care of that task....

 

 

The most sensable one I saw was the B64/B70 merge. I'd love the B71 extention. I disagree about the B31. I think it needs overnight service because it's the only bus serving the area. You compared it to the B49, but the B49 doesn't need it, because the Q train, B44, B68 all run parralel and in some proximaty. The B31 has nothing around it. Other ideas I like are the B75 extention, and I can live with the B5 idea as long as B3/B41 Bergen Beach service isn't cut.

Yeah, I wish the MTA would have went through w/ sending 71's to South Ferry... that would have possibly taken some riders off the F line there.... As for the B31, that's car country out there in Gerritsen... it's bad enough IMO that they have express service, yet they get late night service on the local route too? See what politics can do for an area...

 

How about cut the B2 and merge the B100/B31?

I've heard all kinds of ideas regarding consolidating the routes that travel at/around kings plz & the kings hwy sta on the B/Q... Someone a while back even suggested that merging all 3 routes (B2/31/100) from mill basin to gerritsen bch; having it loop to kings plz & the kings hwy station would be the best bet.... *shrugs*...

[Cait Sith]

make the B16 run 24/7, and extend B35 route to JFK Airport (LTD During the day, Local at night.)

 

keep B25 to operate the way it does now. its safer along Fulton St instead of people having to walk to a nearby station stop.

 

extend B12 bus between Parkside Av/Ocean Av station to the Church Av station via Parkside Av and Fort Hamilton Parkway (towards Church Av station), via Caton Av and Parkside Av (Bway Junction Bound)

 

B1/B86 combination sounds good. B1 LOCAL B86 LIMITED.

 

Extend S53 bus to IKEA in Red Hook, all times and Extend the S79 to Lutheran Hospital (55 St/1 Ave) via 3 Av.

 

You are basically asking for a horrendously long route that Staten Island & Brooklyn Commuters do not want, its also a waste. That is almost a two hour trip.

 

I Disagree with the Q112 Extension, as most of those buses usually meet with the line 90% of the time. I like it the way it is. The B12 should remain the same.

 

Merging the B39 with the Q59, well that depends. The B39 is mostly a handicapped accessible route which is mainly used for bus transfers, some of the times for the lines.

 

B51 should stay the same. Or it can get extended to Atlantic Ave/Pacific Street LIRR/Subway Station.

 

And I really dont think that JFK needs over 9000 Brooklyn routes to serve the airport. What it needs is a route that serves Manhattan. And LGA needs a Bronx route. Makes quite a balance.

 

And Willamsburg Bridge Plaza already has tons of routes going in and out of there, adding more will be more problematic to the area that its in.

[Shortline Bus]

You are basically asking for a horrendously long route that Staten Island & Brooklyn Commuters do not want, its also a waste. That is almost a two hour trip.

 

I Disagree with the Q112 Extension, as most of those buses usually meet with the line 90% of the time. I like it the way it is. The B12 should remain the same.

 

Merging the B39 with the Q59, well that depends. The B39 is mostly a handicapped accessible route which is mainly used for bus transfers, some of the times for the lines.

 

B51 should stay the same. Or it can get extended to Atlantic Ave/Pacific Street LIRR/Subway Station.

 

And I really dont think that JFK needs over 9000 Brooklyn routes to serve the airport. What it needs is a route that serves Manhattan. And LGA needs a Bronx route. Makes quite a balance.

 

And Willamsburg Bridge Plaza already has tons of routes going in and out of there, adding more will be more problematic to the area that its in.

 

I suggested a bus route along Liberty between Cross Bay and Elderts Lane since the stations at both 80th and 88th Streets are not ada accessible.

In other words imo there should be a bus for disabled riders between Cross Bay/Rockaway and Broadway Junction stations at or near Liberty.And the Q8 (101 st Avenue) is quite a few blocks away.

 

reactions Majinvegeta or anyone one else?

[S78 via Hylan]

Keep B74 weekend service. It does get crowded on weekends.

[Shortline Bus]

I suggested a bus route along Liberty between Cross Bay and Elderts Lane since the stations at both 80th and 88th Streets are not ada accessible.

In other words imo there should be a bus for disabled riders between Cross Bay/Rockaway and Broadway Junction stations at or near Liberty.And the Q8 (101 st Avenue) is quite a few blocks away.

 

reactions Majinvegeta or anyone one else?

 

The B12 does not need get many riders between Penn Ave and Elderts Lane. Its get crushloaded the rest of route reguraly.

[BNQtrain3912]

renaming the b41 bergen beach to b40 sounds like a good idea

[KNIGHTRIDER3:16]

Some. great ideas I like your b39 idea but extend it to lafayette.

take the B51 and terminate at South ferry.

I don't think Spring Creek B/O are gonna like that Sunday service

[BNQtrain3912]

I like all of the ideas except B4, a lot of people go to Bay Acedemy and Sheepshead Bay High, so no one wants to walk that long.

i dont think any1 takes the b4 to sheepsheap bay high school they take the 36,and 44

[Jashawn R.]

Can you make a map Id really appriciate that

[Shortline Bus]

Can you make a map Id really appriciate that

 

 

Sorry i cant make map because i dont know how to. If any of you guys could make a map for me please pm me lol.

[BrooklynBus]

Hudson River:

 

I'm the guy from the Committee for Better Transit whom you are thanking.

 

I could actually live with most of your ideas. What I like about them is that you just didn't add on another level of service, but like me also saw the need for some eliminations to keep the proposals economical.

 

Someone else stated that the B25 should be eliminated overnight because it only carries 5 passengers. I bet if you would survey all the overnight routes, you would find that some carry even fewer than 5 passengers. When I saw the passenger counts from the B34 over 30 years ago (the B1 predecessor operating only to 25 Avenue from Shore Road), I was astonished to learn that it carried zero passengers between midnight and 6 AM.

 

Someone else stated that they do not see the need for the B86. In addition to connecting two commecial areas along the same street, it makes sense because the routing of the B1 prior to the extension past 25 Av was just an accident of history and does not meet today's needs. It is needlessly complex and discourages new riders or spur of the moment riders because of all the turns. It would be much simpler and easier to remember where it goes if it traversed 86th Street. Imagine how confusing it would be if no bus went down 5th Avenue in Manhattan but if all service turned off at 34th Street to Penn Station, then continued down 9th Avenue. And another service started at the UN went down 1st Avenue to 34 St then operated along 34th Street to 5th Avenue to make the rest of the trip down 5th Avenue. Sounds pretty ridiculous doesn't it? Don't you think people would be afraid to take a bus down 5th Avenue because they would be afraid of getting lost? That is exactly what happens along 86th Street in Brooklyn. All you have are regular riders who know where the route goes. Non-regular riders are not going to board and bother figuring out where to change buses even with the map on the bus, because before they get on they won't know if there is another bus continuing past 13th Avenue.

 

I was hoping when I created my website to create a debate on my message board regarding the specific proposals like you have done here, but that never materialized.

 

Rather than further debate the specific proposals, some of which are very good, I'd rather talk about the real problem which is how to get the MTA to realize that this needs to be done. Unfortunately, the people who posted here know more than those at Operations Planning and should be working there.

 

This is the problem. OP believes the system functions very well except for some minor tweaking. Therefore, no massive changes are necessary. This is the culture that we have to change.

 

Before I retired, I submitted many of my ideas as Employee Suggestions to force a response. All I received were illogical and contradictory logic. Any route extension received a response that the route would be less reliable. True, but that didn't stop them from doing the B47.

 

They are only interested in saving operating costs not making the service serve the people better. If you were to submit these ideas to them, they would implement all the ideas involving cutting service and none of the others.

 

I've been meaning for a long time to post the responses I received from OP on my website but haven't gotten around to updating the site in about three years. But I'll give you one here. They opposed extending the B42 to Seaview Village by claiming it would cost an addidional $50,000 per year (assuming no additional riders) which they claimed was too much because all changes must involve the same cost or a cost reduction. (That philosphy does not apply to the subways, though.) Actually, they incorrectly measured the additional mileage, and the real cost would be zero, or maybe only $25,000 at most. Of course, any more than one or two new additional passengers per trip would actually mean they would save money, but they refuse to make estimates of any new passengers when planning new routes.

 

So the real question is how do we change the culture there? Because we could be debating these ideas forever here and still nothing will change.

[Eric B]

I'll reiterate my ideas for speeding up the express routed. Allow them to cut across Beverley Rd. and access one block of the Ocean Pkwy main road, which then becomes the expressway.

 

I believe they improved it by having them stay on Coney Island Ave to Park Circle, and entering from Ft Hamilton. But the maps still have them on Church Av, though showing that they do not stop there (the dashed lines in the route). So I assume they did go through with that. But that still keeps them on the crowded and narrow Cortelyou Rd, and has them traveling under local traffic further. And this northbound only. Southound is unchanged, for lack of the exit to run that way. But having them use Beverley to Ocean Pkwy directly in both directions gives quicker access to the highway, and avoids the busier streets and sharp angled intersections.

 

Another one I have thought about is a B54 LTD that takes Park Ave to Broadway, and then picks up Myrtle. That was originally my idea for a B38LTD (Which would be the same, exetpt to pick up DeKalb from Myrtle); as I never thought they would be able to pull off a LTD on Lafayette and DeKalb.

[B35 via Church]

^ I can agree with having buses use Beverley on over to the Pkwy... Cortelyou is no longer the "quiet" road it once was (b/w Ocean av & CI av)... Traffic's gotten rather heavy over the years.... Although I still don't think they'll let buses in service travel along Ocean Parkway...

 

and yeah, that's what manhattan bound BM1's & BM2's do now (remain on CI, to park circle, etc etc).... BM3's & BM4's still make that turn onto the prospect expwy off church av.....

 

 

 

Someone else stated that they do not see the need for the B86. In addition to connecting two commecial areas along the same street, it makes sense because the routing of the B1 prior to the extension past 25 Av was just an accident of history and does not meet today's needs. It is needlessly complex and discourages new riders or spur of the moment riders because of all the turns. It would be much simpler and easier to remember where it goes if it traversed 86th Street. Imagine how confusing it would be if no bus went down 5th Avenue in Manhattan but if all service turned off at 34th Street to Penn Station, then continued down 9th Avenue. And another service started at the UN went down 1st Avenue to 34 St then operated along 34th Street to 5th Avenue to make the rest of the trip down 5th Avenue. Sounds pretty ridiculous doesn't it? Don't you think people would be afraid to take a bus down 5th Avenue because they would be afraid of getting lost? That is exactly what happens along 86th Street in Brooklyn. All you have are regular riders who know where the route goes. Non-regular riders are not going to board and bother figuring out where to change buses even with the map on the bus, because before they get on they won't know if there is another bus continuing past 13th Avenue.

Yeah, that was me....

 

I know you know your stuff... But I still feel, the more & more I keep hearing about a "B86", the more I don't really see a need for such a route... Comparing 5th av in Manhattan to 86th in Brooklyn? I see your point, however, SW Brooklyn isn't Midtown Manhattan (which is far more dense) - Not going to get that much of a wave of irregular/non-regular riders traveling to SW Brooklyn... What I'm saying is, the majority of ppl that ride those routes are regulars anyway... I don't see how having a route go down the length of 86th st will bring in more non-regular riders...

 

I'm not saying a "B86" is a terrible idea... I'm saying the B1 may as well be left as is.... Sure streamlining a route makes things feasible, but in this case, the current B1 does the job... IMO, anyway.... Contrary to popular belief (even much to my surprise), the masses aren't all disembarking off B1's onto B64's along 86th before it makes that turn up 13th... People do use that portion of the B1 route....

 

...and to get rid of the B1 for a "B86" & a (go nowhere) 13th/14th av route... which seems to be the common consensus/replacement/whatever, I'm not too sure that's the best option either....

 

but yeah, we can keep bringing up points & counter-points this until we're blue in the face.... For starters, I'd like to hear from some ppl. that live in Dyker Hgts, Bensonhurst, or Bay Ridge that uses these routes on a daily basis about this....

[BrooklynBus]

^ I can agree with having buses use Beverley on over to the Pkwy... Cortelyou is no longer the "quiet" road it once was (b/w Ocean av & CI av)... Traffic's gotten rather heavy over the years.... Although I still don't think they'll let buses in service travel along Ocean Parkway...

 

 

I'm pretty sure they have thought of that, and if proposed the residents on Beverley Road would protest.

 

As far as using Ocean Parkway, the only problem DOT has with that is buses stopping on the main roadway. I think they would allow express buses to use Ocean Parkway for a few blocks, but probably not for the entire length.

[BrooklynBus]

[quote name=B35 via Church;129232

 

I know you know your stuff... But I still feel' date=' the more & more I keep hearing about a "B86", the more I don't really see a need for such a route... Comparing 5th av in Manhattan to 86th in Brooklyn? I see your point, however, SW Brooklyn isn't Midtown Manhattan (which is far more dense) - Not going to get that much of a wave of irregular/non-regular riders traveling to SW Brooklyn... What I'm saying is, the majority of ppl that ride those routes are regulars anyway... I don't see how having a route go down the length of 86th st will bring in more non-regular riders...

 

I'm not saying a "B86" is a terrible idea... I'm saying the B1 may as well be left as is.... Sure streamlining a route makes things feasible, but in this case, the current B1 does the job... IMO, anyway.... Contrary to popular belief (even much to my surprise), the masses aren't all disembarking off B1's onto B64's along 86th before it makes that turn up 13th... People do use that portion of the B1 route....

 

...and to get rid of the B1 for a "B86" & a (go nowhere) 13th/14th av route... which seems to be the common consensus/replacement/whatever, I'm not too sure that's the best option either....

 

but yeah, we can keep bringing up points & counter-points this until we're blue in the face.... For starters, I'd like to hear from some ppl. that live in Dyker Hgts, Bensonhurst, or Bay Ridge that uses these routes on a daily basis about this....

 

Let me explain why there should be a B86, or more generally why the routes should be straighter and less confusing.

 

You are correct. 86th Street in Brooklyn is not 5th Avenue in Manhattan and there are fewer tourists in Brooklyn. But bus travel should still be as easy as possible. You are also correct in stating that people are not getting off in masses at 13th Avenue to transfer for the B64. Let me tell you why.

 

When I did my origin destination survey in 1974 of 8,000 riders on those routes and a few others, I discovered that most people would only use a bus if they can make their trip using one or two buses. While many people are willing to use three or four subway trains in making a trip, this does not hold true for buses, probably because you are more exposed to the elements and less sure of when the next bus will arrive, unlike the trains which run pretty regularly except if there is a major delay or rerouting.

 

We found that more than half the people make their trip using one bus or a bus and some combination of trains. About 30 to 40% used two buses. Only about 5% used three buses or more and virtually all of them were Kingsborough College Students coming from Staten Island. We surveyed 3 who used 5 buses each way. They represented about 20 people.

 

This is why you should strive to have the bus routing structure to be able to serve all trips with one or two buses. The only way to do this efficiently is to have a basic grid system. Any other configuration causes people to double back when making a transfer. So if you want to go for example from 18th Avenue and 86th Street to let's say 95th Street and 4th Avenue area, you have four basic ways of getting there. 1- Take the B1, change for the B64 and walk from 86th Street to 95 Street. 2- Do the same thing, but change again for the B63 and pay another fare if you do not have an unlimited. 3- Take the B1 up to Bay Ridge Avenue and change for the B63 there. Yes, it is out of the way, but more people would choose this option than the obvious #1 or 2.

 

I said there were four ways (not counting taking a cab.) Another popular way would be to avoid the bus altogether, and take the B train to 36th Street and change there for the R. So you really cannot see the demand for an 86th Street route by looking for transfers at 13th Avenue. The only way is to try it.

 

Yes, there would be some opposition from regular riders using the current route and some would be inconvenienced, but I think, not as many as you may think.

 

Hudson River's idea may be the best, to try it as a limited and keep the current B1 as is at least for the time being.

 

The grid system idea is also why I flip flopped the B36 in 1978 to have it run basically along Avenue Z with another route basically on Neptune and Emmons (B4) not counting the diversion to Sheepshead Bay Station. Prior to 1978, the routes were (B21) Avenue Z- SBR-Emmons and (B36) Surf - Neptune - SBR - Avenue Z, which also caused indirect routing when transfering for example from Avenue Z west to Coney Island North if you were coming from Kings Bay. You had to first travel needlessly to Neptune to make the transfer.

 

Also, I don't think the 13th/14th Avenue route is a nowhere route. if it runs as I proposed from 86th and 4th along 86th to 13th/14th, 39th to Cortelyou Road. It's certainly no less usefull than the current B16 which isn't exactly heavily utilized. Having that route pass Maimonides would increase ridership by 30%, I believe. If you look at the B11, more than half the people on that bus get off at Maimonides.

 

Also, look at the transfer you are forced to make with the current routing of the B9 and B16. To transfer from 60th Street going west to 14th Avenue going north, you must make a 15 minute diversion to Fort Hamilton Parkway. Don't you think that type of travel discourages bus usage? That's 15 wasted minutes in additon to the 30 minutes to one hour you are already spending on making you trip.

[Shortline Bus]

Thanks for kind words Brooklyn bus.