Trainmaster5

I think the probably terminated at Jay and relayed at Bergen lower for northbound service.

Consider my Brighton line and it’s history. BMT Standards, Triplexes, SMEE equipment. #1, #7, QB, QT, Q, D, QJ, M and the NX at the southern end of the line which was actually a Sea Beach line along with the N. RR, RJ, and R were the Fourth Avenue local and the T, and the TT were the West End express and local. The IND connection over the Manhattan Bridge sent the D down the Brighton line and the F became the Culver line to Coney Island. I remember that the Brighton line riders hated the D train and they protested the loss of the Q variants to Manhattan. I take it as a generational thing but while NYCT can change the letters and numbers of the services that are run the names of the trackage traversed best describes the location and not the present day identifiers. Just my opinion. Carry on.

Perhaps I took your post in a different context. If so I apologize. As for the Dyre connection at East 180th Street you have to know the layout between there and northward to Morris Park. The original trackage led to the Unionport Station located east of the East 180th St of today. That’s why when today’s line was connected to the mainline the flyover and the n/b tracks to Morris Park station connected with the local tracks and not the express. Only the flyover had to be constructed. The White Plains line was the East Side Lexington line while the Dyre line was the line to New Lots via Seventh Avenue. Think of 241st as the East Side terminal historically. Lexington and Third Avenue trains were running out of the station and the yard up there from Day One while Seventh Avenue service ran out of the old Bronx Park station just north of East Tremont station. My school car instructors in both titles walked us along the tracks between the East, Morris Park, and the original Unionport station drilling that history into our heads almost daily. We still laugh because most people, even Bronx residents under a certain age, don’t know that the Dyre line was an IND line because it was taken over after the IRT and BMT were taken over by the City. Just a little bit of history. Carry on.

Just had a great conversation with some friends from my generation. We’re all post WWII and Korean War kids and our terminology concerning subway and bus lines is markedly different from most of my fellow posters. We are all Brooklynites no matter where we reside today. Some examples. The line that travels from DeKalb Avenue through Prospect Park and southward is always the Brighton line to us. When we were kids the line beginning at Franklin Avenue was either the Brighton line or later on the shuttle. Sea Beach and West End were similar. The BMT Southern Division had numbers on some equipment but we never used them. What posters call the IND Fulton Street line today was never called that by my peers. The train was the Eighth Avenue line because our parents called it that. The Fulton Street el was the only thing that our parents and grandparents called Fulton. When I was a kid the Fulton Street line ran from Rockaway Avenue to Lefferts via Pitkin . Same thing applied to the Lexington Avenue el and the Myrtle el. For some reason the IRT in Brooklyn was just that. Nobody said the Livonia or Nostrand line. As far as buses go in my neighborhoods names were used more than the numbers. Nostrand, Utica, Pitkin, Rockaway, Flatbush, Fulton Street, Rogers, Church, Remsen, Bergen, Sumner, etc. . We knew the numbers but where one lived was the determining factor. To our children and grandkids we allowed them to use the numbers. Re-routes, name changes have made our street names obsolete 😃. I was just curious if this happened in other boroughs and in other generations. Any examples would be appreciated. Thanks. Carry on.

You’re correct. I remember an R32(?) consist that derailed at the same spot as the Malbone incident. It’s very dangerous traversing that trackage. 👌🏾

The only utilizes the N/B local track at Prospect Park because, as you pointed out, it’s easier for all involved. Back in the ancient times both local tracks were used for the Franklin-Brighton line. After that service was ended and just shuttle service became the normal route the S/B track was used at first. The problem was that that train had to relay south of the station and blocked service in both directions between Parkside and Prospect Park when crossing over to the N/B local track. There’s never been a diamond crossover north of the station connecting the two shuttle tracks that I know of. That was my home station for many years and I have ridden S/B trains that creeped into the station on the S/B local track. I’m not sure if the posted speed was 5 or 10 mph but it definitely wasn’t higher. I’m sure they never considered reconstructing the trackage entering that area because the walls are original concrete pillars that were built long before today’s trackage between Seventh Avenue and Prospect Park were built. My take. Carry on.

Thanks for bringing that point up. The whole deal was a legal compromise so that the Rockaway ridership wasn't totally abandoned by the bankrupt LIRR.

Why do people assume that the NYCT takeover of the Rockaway Branch and the connection south of the Ozone Park station was cutting a corner ? IIRC back in those times Lower Manhattan was a big destination for ridership. It was obviously more important than continuing the branch further to the north toward the old Whitepot Junction with the LIRR where any potential riders would be forced to disembark, pay another fare, and board an LIRR train to Penn Station. Even today my preference would have been to try to find a legal, logistical way to have trains from the Rockaways branch off just north of the Ozone Park Station and connect with the LIRR Atlantic Branch toward Flatbush/ Atlantic Terminal.. Remember that back then the folks north of that point sure weren't clamoring for service north of that point and the politicians , even today, don't see any reason to speak up for it if the voters aren't asking for it. Just my opinion. Carry on.

The first time I encountered the problem was back in the sixties when Alexander’s opened the store at 58th and Lexington. I worked there after school and one night I decided to take the train to Union Square to transfer to my Brighton line. Train pulled in and nothing happened at first. Finally the C/R and the M/M walked the platform keying open certain doors. Very time consuming. From that time on I’d take the BMT exclusively from 59th St. When I got to RTO in the early eighties and worked Lexington Avenue the procedure was still done that way. Eventually we were told to bypass the stop completely, especially during rush hours, when any delay would cause major congestion on the southbound trains, local and express. Remember that we’re talking about ancient equipment. There used to be gap fillers at the southern ends of the Brooklyn Bridge station, too. That’s before my time in RTO. That’s my concern about platform screen doors in general. The agency is broke. Why add any new expense to the bottom line when the doors weren’t needed for the last 118 years or so ? My take. Carry on.

Count yourself among the lucky ones. At least they deployed in your experience. I’m talking about cases when they don’t deploy, period. Remember that we’re talking about electrical components functioning properly in a steel dust, unclean environment. I haven’t looked at the roadbed in the areas where they want to install the screen doors but with the history of preventive maintenance I’ve seen during my career I have my doubts about the viability of the project. Just my opinion. Carry on.

I have a question for you riders of the southbound Lexington Avenue service. Have any of you been aboard a , or train when there’s been a gap filler problem at Union Square ? We were instructed to bypass the station in that case and proceed to the next station when that happened in the latter part of my career. Originally we manually keyed open doors where it was safe to do so. I wonder what the procedure would be for today’s train crews ? Imagine being late for work or a flight and your train doesn’t stop? I wonder how that’s going to resolved ? Idle speculation. Carry on.

Now you're going to confuse some posters. They probably haven't noticed that many construction projects on the railroads, subways, and the highways are all done overnights. Perhaps they've never had a 3 or 4 am report at Jamaica Yard, 207th St, Stillwell, 239th or Westchester and they live in Staten Island, Nassau, or Rockland. Throw a little Winter weather into the mix and see what they say about that. Heck, I had a schoolcar class at 239th yard one time . I lived at New Lots, boarded a train with one of my instructors at 6 am for a scheduled 88 minute trip and we arrived at 241 St station at 8:02. Class was scheduled for 8 am in the yard. In fact for most of my career in RTO i utilized the subway system. I don't know the current modus operandi but, back then, as long as you were on an interval that was scheduled to arrive at point A at a specific time and that interval was delayed for whatever reason you couldn't be penalized and marked late. I don't know how many times my partners and I boarded an interval at New Lots headed for Lenox Terminal or somewhere on the Broadway or WPR lines where we ended up on a B Division train at Atlantic, Nevins-DeKalb, or Borough Hall to try to reach our starting point in a timely manner. Back then we didn't have any IRT express service south of Atlantic during the mid day hours. We even went the Pennsylvania Avenue bus to Liberty or Broadway Junction for or 4 car local service. To sum up there's no guarantee you are going to arrive at your destination on time no matter your travel time or mode of transportation. My recollections. Carry on.

Perhaps now you understand what I was saying in the Subway thread. There's no difference in crime in Suffolk, Nassau, or NYC. Subway, bus, LIRR. Same crimes but different locations. Just my opinion. Your opinion may be different. Carry on.

Let me give an amen to your response. I’m someone who rode the subway system from the ‘50s onwards and worked in NYCT from the late ‘60s until 2010 on all tours, AM, PM, Midnights, it’s my opinion that the poster is either very young or getting their information mainly from social media or television news. We old folks were taught that tv “news” was inherently biased favoring crime, fires, and the like over “factual “ researched information. There’s a reason why many people of my generation still view local news as part of the Boob Tube. I noticed a poster saying that they came from Queens and now they reside in Central Islip. To those who aren’t familiar with Central Islip let’s just say that the safest places in Central Islip are the NY State and Federal Courthouses. There’s no difference between Jamaica Avenue, Gun Hill Road, Myrtle Avenue, or Lenox Avenue or Carleton Avenue in C.I. , IMO. I’ve served on jury duty in Brooklyn and Suffolk and there’s no difference in the type of crime or the perpetrators no matter the location. Panhandling in the subway station environment and vicinity is no different from those who do the same thing at the Central Islip or Brentwood LIRR stations. My opinion. Carry on

One question for you. Since I don’t know where you started your adventure from wouldn’t it have been easier to get a KO train at Jamaica and ride it eastbound ? In other words were you interested in the equipment or the scenery ? Just curious. Carry on.

You should have been around in the early '80's on the line. I was pounding the road late nights and overnights back then and every station from 191St to 103St except 125th St had homeless encampments at the end of them. Some folks were bold enough to unscrew the lighting at the station's ends. I had never seen that situation before and it fascinated me. The difference between then and now is back then there were homeless families gathered together who were mostly nonviolent rather than the EDP population who need mental help. The '80's began the shutdown of inpatient facilities. The strange thing (at least to me) was that this situation was confined to this part of the IRT back then. The Seventh Avenue and Lex line didn't have this problem and neither did the below 96th St. Just my recollection. Carry on.

There's a "Transit Employment" forum where you might find the information you need . Just sayin'.

Maybe that's why that "21" was in the back of my mind. Thanks.

Speaking of PBL offhand does anyone remember the Green Lines bus route that terminated at New Lots Avenue and Ashford St. Stop was adjacent to the drug store but for some reason the route # escapes me. TIA. Back to the topic at hand. Carry on.

It's actually a modification of recent service changes. Instead of a shuttle between Hicksville and Babylon involving a change of trains you get a DM one seat ride for a change. Central Branch sightseeing. Wonder what made them change to this operation ? . Carry on

Happened to talk with a family member , B/O, and mentioned that someone said that the Q24 should get TSP and a bus lane in the vicinity of Atlantic and Pennsylvania on it's western end in Brooklyn. He said, and I'm quoting him, "That person has never traveled the segment from North Conduit to Pennsylvania or was high". That segment is one of two major east-west commercial corridors, the other being Linden Blvd, from that segment of Queens into Brooklyn. I happened to make the mistake of traveling the part from N. Conduit westward a few weeks ago and even overlooking the construction work I don't think the street and businesses could or should have any type of bus lane. IMO the width of the street precludes any such thing. Carry on.

I'm still waiting for the subway stops at Utica and Empire Blvd and Church Avenues. I think BrooklynBus and I have been looking for those stops for 60 + years now

This is what I was talking about when I mentioned cost earlier in the thread. Thanks for the article. I've seen similar things over the years. Carry on.

I'm well aware of the different means of powering a consist. The part of the thread earlier that mentioned cost is what I'm basing my response on. Carry on with the conversation.

In my opinion the only trains that can reliably run on this proposal must be diesel powered. From the waterfront eastward it's mostly open-cut trackage. Subway cars and MU consists added to snow or ice is a no-go. Look at the Sea Beach or Dyre in those conditions. Third rail is a non-starter ,IMO . Let's be realistic. There's nothing wrong with enthusiasm but look at the big picture every once and a while. Carry on.