Trainmaster5

Love your reply. I don't know where some of these numbers are originating but I've seen them on the subway side also. For years my partner and I had a job that gave us 55 minutes from Dyre Avenue to Bowling Green on the . New signal system installed in the Bronx and we would be on time at the Grand Concourse but 5 minutes late 2 stops away at 125th Street. We had a supervisor working in the RCC who monitored our train throughout the Bronx and saw our complaint but we were constantly called late because it now took us 63 minutes to make that 55 minute trip. We told our folks in scheduling what was happening. The next pick our rabbi and his team in operation and planning created a new job for us so that we would stop complaining to the supervision at the RCC handling Lexington Avenue. Instead of admitting the problem with the new signal system they actually added the 8 minutes to the scheduled running time of our old job. The sad part was that the local supervision along Lexington Avenue and our regular riders were aware of the problem. I now see numbers on the forums that I take with a grain of salt. My experience. Carry on.

Good to know that. My argument was specifically about the lower Lexington line between Borough Hall n/b to Brooklyn Bridge. Let's say 16:50-17:20. For most of my time on the road I passed through the area n/b coming from Utica, Flatbush, or looping around the ferry. 2 minute intervals from Utica on the with my rabbi, his coworker from scheduling, and sometimes the CTO, riding with me to East 180th,the CTO, or Dyre. The passenger flow in that particular time frame was the biggest problem in my experience. Leaving the Bridge I'd be on my leader's tail to Grand Central daily. The that left the Bridge with me would arrive at Grand Central with me almost every day. The CTO and my rabbi understood the problem I'm trying to get across. Can CBTC change that? Just asking. BTW welcome back, stranger. Carry on,

I happen to agree with you. I believe that the protocol is for them to notify their supervisor. They aren't supposed to use a cellphone while on the clock. Imagine being disciplined for doing the right thing. I got hassled by a supervisor for using my cellphone to call Command Center to request power removal when I happened across a suicidal person laying across the track. His argument was that I should have used the phone in the booth when I told him that I was in a dead spot for my radio. The phone in the booth was 700+ feet away and downstairs from where the incident was happening. He and I argued about power removal and restoration, too. You've dealt with some of these people while doing your bus advocacy thing. You know that you're not dealing with Mensa types or Rhodes Scholar folks 😀. BTW the Desk Supt. in RTO backed me 100% in my argument with his underling when I made my call to Jay Street that night. There's no guarantee that a Station Agent would have the same type of backing these days. Imagine being an unemployed hero. Just something to ponder. Carry on.

Maybe my experiences are different than some others but ridership on the and definitely was not lower on the midnight tour on the IRT, especially in Manhattan. That’s why the Transit Police were put on the trains back then. Conductor, M/M, Transfers, Work Train, I was out there nightly in the early Eighties. Carry on.

I believe that many people don't understand what the station agent is there for. The primary concern is to safeguard the agency's money. The property comes second. The customer is a concern, too, but that falls under the police responsibility. I was a Railroad Porter many decades ago and that's what we were told. When I went to RTO passenger safety was stressed but equipment (property) was also a priority. There were times when the Command Center would direct us RTO people to send or take a sick customer to the token booth to wait for help while we returned to the train and continued the trip. Later on the message was to discharge the train with the Conductor remaining with the passenger, on the platform, as I moved out running light. During the last blackout my Conductor and I discharged our train, helped another train crew do the same, and took all the passengers two flights up to street level where we flagged down two B44 buses for our riders. We then returned to my train and carried a wheelchair bound rider to the street level. All this time the Station Agent was confined to that hot booth because she couldn't leave by rule. She was in the booth until a supervisor and the police showed up to check on her and the money . That was 5 hours later. Money secured and she was free to go. We RTO folks had to remain with our trains to protect the property from 4:11 pm until 10:04 am the next day. It boils down to knowing your responsibility, agent, supervisor, RTO, and PD, and following them. Just my thoughts. Carry on.

I guess PAPERBOY LOVE didn't make the grade after all 😃. I'm shocked !!!

We actually kicked that last thought of yours around in a refresher course once. The consensus was that the original IRT was an interesting idea but the Second, Third, Sixth, and Ninth Avenue elevated lines were more important to the business, commercial, and residential interests back then. The subway, by making that turn on 42nd St. towards the west , pretty much ignored the entire East Side and the Bronx ridership, actual and potential. Even when the Lenox line was extended to the Bronx it was connected to the Second and Third Avenue els initially. Brook ( St. Ann’s) , Freeman St. , and 219th St. towers were a legacy of those connections in my career. Something to ponder. Carry on.

You pretty much nailed it. Key words are “safety” concerns.

So you want to eliminate the service, add seven stops to the rush hour train to cover for the eliminated and add an express between Eastern Parkway and Myrtle Avenue if I read your proposal right. Where's the benefit for anyone coming from Jamaica? You've slowed their commute.

Question for you. What happens to the local station riders in this scenario?

I'm not sure if you are looking at the same picture that I am. The reason for the service's creation was to avoid the delays on the Jamaica line. All it takes is one train taking on a heavy load and that train and it's followers are automatically late. If you've ever ridden the northbound IRT in the morning rush hour the same thing happens at Atlantic Avenue with the subway transfers and the LIRR arriving at the same time. I'd liken it to bus bunching except on the Jamaica line trains are at the mercy of the overcrowded one. Of course RCC could skip the train and bypass some stops but it's easier for them to run the current setup. If you ran nothing else but trains and had to skip a few stops here and there you just screwed over a passenger who needed a bypassed stop. With the present system at least passengers can use their selected intervals by planning ahead. The general idea is to take the riders from point A to point B with minimal disruptions. That's what I was taught at least. Carry on.

It seems that some people don't know the reasoning behind the combo. They are a direct replacement for the BMT Jamaica line A and B service from 168th St to Eastern Parkway. It was originally created to relieve the overcrowding and resultant delays on the line during the rush hours. Some stations like Sutphin Blvd would be severely crowded because of the LIRR or 160th, 168 because of the buses discharging in the vicinity. The A-B service, like today's combo was created to relieve the jams by having selected trains skip some stops with the followers stopping at the passed stops. Absent a third track on the line this is the best that can be done. The is a train, period. It's not a separate line. Eliminating the just recreates the problem that existed beforehand. BTW that A-B combo I mentioned did run express to Manhattan in the rush. We had local service originating at Atlantic, Eastern Parkway, and a few coming from Rockaway Parkway that used the flyover from the Canarsie to the Broadway ( Brooklyn) lines. That was the # 14 service to Canal St while the Jamaica trains were #15 and the Canarsie was #16. Of course with the changing demographics of today's and the demolition done at Atlantic Ave it looks like today's service pattern can't be modified much. Just my opinion and history lesson. Carry on.

You are correct. Broadway ( Brooklyn ) locals from Canarsie (rush),Crescent, Atlantic or Eastern Parkway terminated at Canal. Myrtle terminated at Chambers along with some BMT South service using the Manhattan Bridge and the Jamaica line terminated at Broad. This was the basic rush hour service from 1957-60 that I'm familiar with. People would wait for those Canarsie/Broadway trains from Rockaway Parkway to Sutter to avoid that long transfer at Broadway Junction back then.

Just a guess but maybe an unauthorized person activated an emergency alarm box ?

I think they’re going to turn some southbound service back north to avoid congestion on the Fourth Avenue corridor. Just my guess. Carry on.

I'm definitely not CBTC qualified having been an A division C/R and M/M for 30 years and retired for over a decade 😳. The point I was trying to get across was that the ATS/ CBTC ideas were first released to the RTO folks in O&P and scheduling was that it wasn't a magic bullet for speeding up all service . Remember that early in my career , even before the GOH Redbird fleet, our trains were faster. The accidents and the removal of the inshot valves to compensate for the old signal system slowed everything down. The reason why many of my mentors were skeptical about parts of the proposal was the rebuild of the signal system in the location that I referenced. The existing plant, switches, signals, and the infrastructure of the 100+ year old system in that area was determined to be an impediment compared to what was in the works for the Canarsie and the subsequent Flushing systems. I'm all for speeding up the system safely. The last General Superintendent I had in the IRT used to tease me about how little cab time I spent daily. When my mentors pointed out that I spent even less back in the day he understood where I was coming from. I'm pointing out what my mentors in O&P and scheduling showed us about all the factors involved in running time and scheduling. No argument intended. Carry on.

The mistake that many people are making is that CBTC speeds up the system when actually the premise is that trains can operate closer together with the newer system. The trains aren’t going any faster it’s just the spacing of the signals making it appear that way. In my experience it’s the variants that I mentioned that determine the running times of the intervals throughout the day. Hope this makes sense. That’s why specifically mentioned the Lexington Avenue line. Carry on.

It’s always amazing, at least to me, that so many people misunderstand what CBTC is supposed to do. When the subject was broached to some of us in the A division we pointed out the obvious things we encountered during the PM rush northbound from Brooklyn. The CBTC system in conjunction with the ATS overlay was supposed to allow trains to run closer together, period. The signal system in place at that time was not a limitation on train spacing heading from Brooklyn to points north. The only limit was the amount of trains and ridership involved. I literally followed my leader from either Utica, Franklin, or Bowling Green every day for years. I remember telling my rabbi and another Supt. from O&P that whomever sat in the room while this was proposed without questioning the premise as it pertained to the IRT Lexington line should have been bitch slapped and their bank accounts investigated by the prosecutor, Federal and local. I mentioned going to the Village Voice, too, but calmer folks spoke to me about it. It seems that many supporters ended up retiring from NYCT, were shuffled around in-house, or became consultants. The two gentlemen that I mentioned would ride with me, one to Grand Central, and the other to East 180 or Dyre almost daily. They knew that my motorman friend on the would leave the Bridge with us, beat us to Union Square, and pull into Grand Central with me most of the time. Somehow some forum posters have the impression that CBTC speeds up service. It doesn’t and it wasn’t given as a benefit when I was first made aware of it. Timers, train traffic, passenger load and terminal capacity are the real restraints in my opinion. . Without a wholesale rebuild of the signal system in lower Manhattan from Bowling Green n/b I, personally, can’t see a CBTC installation taking place until north of the Brooklyn Bridge station. There’s a space between Fulton and the Bridge that might hold one train. My take. Carry on.

I fully understand the problem the as a whole faces. The problem, as you allude to, is the WFH folks and the loss of LIRR ridership in particular. Even with all day off peak fares in effect I, personally, don't see a mass return to the past. As you rightfully point out it's the revenue loss itself that I fear is going to lead to a continued downward spiral of the whole agency's survival in the long run. Maybe the ESA project can convince some of my Suffolk County neighbors to return to the old commuting patterns. My concern is more focused on the NYC residents and the local mass transit bus and subway problems. Thanks for sharing your point of view. It's frustrating to an older generation member to see service cancellations, especially on the bus side, because we didn't have that sort of problem even in the pre era. Carry on.

I want to shift gears a bit and ask a question of my fellow members. I've been reading the business pages for the last year as well as the website. It appears that the is down about 40% in subway ridership compared to pre-pandemic times. If those numbers are correct where is this clamor for " full service" coming from in many threads ? What, exactly, do some people mean with that term ? I'm well aware of instances of number manipulation by the agency through the years but somewhere there's a serious disconnect between some posters experiences and the "official" numbers. The economy is on the upswing in many places but no one expects those numbers to reach the pre-pandemic numbers in the future. This is the consensus of the business community in the area. Those that do the actual hiring and payroll calculations. The subway ridership numbers have been declining for almost a decade, IIRC. Does anyone actually believe that the bean counters are going to ramp back up to pre-pandemic service for less ridership if the business community in the CBD's don't forecast the need ? I'm just asking a question and looking for some honest feedback. Carry on.

I'm happy to see that someone with real-world experience in civil service or similar employment understands how things work. Transit, NYPD, Sanitation, FDNY all operate that way to some degree. Byford, Feinberg, Phil Eng, Catherine Rinaldi, are just the faces known to the public in the . Some may be more knowledgeable than others but they do not set policy. It used to fascinate me and my fellow retirees watching the press and some forum members praise Byford as if he was the Second Coming. His ideas were spot on but he didn't have the power to implement them by himself. The board itself, who aren't transportation experts, rely on a cadre of unknown "experts" to supply them with the ideas that are then made public. I met Prince Andrew's dad early in my career. Once in Westchester Yard and the second time at Avenue X Yard. Both times he got the grand tour but at Avenue X he and some of his entourage doubled back about 45 minutes later and he exited his limo and spoke to some of us hourlies and the Property Protection Agent on duty. He admitted that his knowledge of the system was non-existent and spent almost a half hour with us getting input on how things really worked in the field. I also had the pleasure of meeting Mr. David Gunn a few times many years ago and found him to be interested in the day to day workings of the subway system, especially the "new" R62 equipment and the Grand Central / Times Square Shuttle because he passed through the area quite frequently in his travels. I've pretty much figured that Prince Andrew's ideas, good or bad, are generated by the people you spoke of who remain blameless and undercover while the arrows are aimed at the Governor who is very public and an easy target. It wouldn't matter if he is re-elected ( sorry Wallyhorse) or not or whom is elected NYC Mayor or County Exec, because the real power is held by the underlings in the and most local governments. I think that VG8, among others, has figured out how things work. Just my opinion. Carry on.

Off the top of my head, from experience, drink of water or restroom time. Just a guess 😃.

I think you missed the obvious sarcasm. At least that’s how I took it.

I'm going on speculation here so bear with me. The Dyre line was purchased by the city from the bankrupt NYW&B railroad which was the orphan of the bankrupt New Haven. It was a compromise to help the city residents of the area and slow down the clamor to connect the area with the Concourse line proposed extension. Back then the Board of Estimate, made up of the Borough Presidents, voted on those proposals. I can see the Bronx person's vote automatically. The other votes and the Mayor's? Probably a tit for tat thing. As for New Rochelle or Yonkers? What votes do you have that can help or hurt a NYC elected official ? Remember that reverse commuting wasn't on the radar back then. Remember also that a decade after the Dyre line purchase the LIRR was bankrupt, too. City purchased a segment within the city limits . I never read anything about purchasing a segment from Queens to Mineola or Babylon. I'm guessing that it was because the residents of those places were not voters in NYC , reverse commuting was still minimal, and there was probably some legal restrictions on such things. This is beside the fact that the outer boroughs were losing service, not gaining, over that time span. Until the creation of what is now the MTA passenger rail transportation in the area was the province of private (bankrupt) companies. Just my thoughts. Carry on.

You're entirely correct except for one reason. Bankruptcy. I'm betting that the political reason for the purchase and the restoration of the southern portion was due to the amount of residents who were left stranded or reliant on the resulting roundabout route to jobs in the city. The residents of the northern portion had other options. Just my simplistic take. Carry on.