Trainmaster5

Since the option order for R211 cars is being added to the existing capital budget I have to admit that I was wrong about the issue. I read some of the documents that appeared and noticed the BS funding assumptions spread throughout. Did anyone else see the plans for the SIRT ? Unless I missed it I don’t remember anything about R211 equipment. Likewise did anyone else notice that the R262 cars and the IRT CBTC project was kicked down the road ? Many of us were told 25 years ago that the IRT would never make the projected CBTC completion date. This came from the people in the know. On the subject of retrofitted B Division equipment for CBTC compliance which cars were they talking about ? My last point concerns the subway ridership numbers. Either the or some posters are making up those numbers. Someone is flat out wrong. There’s an article about the in Monday’s Daily News that also summarized the points that were made. BTW the points made about the Astoria line and the Broadway BMT also apply to the IRT Lexington Avenue and Seventh Avenue line. My take. Carry on.

You're 100% correct about the work train vs passenger service operations. I've done both and in my day we looked down on the passenger T/Os because that passenger train operation was considered kid stuff to the old timers. A work train, especially a designated Roadmaster with two M/M / T/O's on each end was real work compared to a "road train" in passenger service. I actually trained a school car motor instructor on electric loco operation ( which was much easier than diesel operation) although an electric loco can gap and lose power if it's off the 3rd rail while the diesel doesn't have that limitation. Some of my classmates stayed on work trains for their entire careers but I went in the other direction and never looked back. Just my recollection. Things might be very different these days. Carry on.

I'm well aware of the funding issue for these projects. The problem, assuming the article is correct, is that this capital plan was already underfunded yet the Governor and the want to squeeze this project into this capital plan. I understand that they want to hire an outside company to come up with a plan including cost estimates. Heck, they could hire me if they want to GIVE money to someone. Seems like an outright scam to me. My take. Carry on.

Just thought I’d drop this into the subway forum although it’s part of the railroad topic also. Did anyone else read the article in today’s Daily News ? Seems like the and the governor have a plan to overhaul Penn Station in this underfunded Capital Plan. Maybe some people might understand why I don’t think believe there will be an option order of R211 any time in the near future. CBTC is definitely necessary, IMO, but where is the money coming from for new cars, GC Madison, the LIRR third track, fleet expansion, new buses and the SAS ? Some of the projects are funded in some degree I’m aware of but the future doesn’t look too bright no matter which way we turn. Just my opinion. Carry on.

I think it’s probably wishful thinking as it relates to the R211 subway cars. Whatever the labor-management issue is at this plant and the babysitting job would seem to be an ongoing problem with Kawasaki. Let’s not get too giddy that we overlook this. Just my take. Carry on.

Try telling that to the Kawasaki pom pom wavers on the forums. I’ve tried telling some people to read the business and/ or technology sections or magazines. For over a decade these stories about the manufacturing of rail cars and the shrinking number of suppliers has been known . When US states added the “ made in “ or “ assembled in “ provision to contracts they compromised whatever strength those states or authorities ever had. This leaves the and the other folks at the mercy of one or two companies who are still willing to do business with them. Imagine a supplier undergoing a parts and software shortage, in the midst of a pandemic, with labor issues. Forget about on time delivery. Covid-19’s an Act of God issue if it goes to court. Remember that it’s the politicians and the business interests that actually control transportation issues in the state and the country. This talk of option orders is borderline Fantasy Island, at least to me, with the political climate we’re in and the prospect of an anti-mass transit congress taking over next year. Just my take on the ongoing issues. Feel free to disagree with me. No hard feelings either way. Carry on.

Better look at the LIRR and the Kawasaki M9 car order. I wouldn't place too much trust in that company at the moment. Carry on.

You’re probably correct with your observation about the el service but the streamlined service will definitely mean cuts along the existing lines traveling under the . That’s how they operate. Cuts, discourage ridership, eliminate runs or whole lines and blame it on lack of patronage. My opinion. Carry on.

I’m just thinking that it’s probably cheaper than making a few el stations ADA compliant while cutting service on the existing bus routes along Broadway. Stub end the B46, B15, Q24, et al at Broadway and run this Toonerville trolley service every half hour between Broadway Junction and Bridge Plaza. Cut bus runs and avoid spending money on ADA compliance. Like I said I’m a cynic but I bet the bean counters think that way.

Although I see your point about the train the cynic in me leads me to the unmentioned conclusion. How many stations above this B53 are ADA compliant ? It’s always about the money. My take.

I'm guessing it means the R211 is delayed

This article should be a reminder to all of my fellow posters. Read the business sections of the national news services sometime. Since the beginning of the Covid-19 era the supply shortage problem was foreseen yet hardly mentioned in local media or the forums. We have some members that are aware of the situation but don’t post as frequently as they did in the past. I understand their frustration with some of our fellow posters. Arguing about CBTC, R211, option orders and future fleet assignments seem interesting to many but the real world evidence points in another direction. There’s a reason why the LIRR is keeping some of the M3 fleet operational. ESA is coming in a limited form later this year. Limited because they don’t have enough equipment for a full rollout. My fellow subway posters are hopefully aware that Kawasaki is also the supplier of the R211 subway fleet. The same company with labor problems and suffering from supply shortages. The same supply shortages in the software sector have affected auto manufacturing worldwide. Took me 10 weeks to get a replacement software module for my car. I wasn’t aware of the labor issue at Kawasaki but the M9 issues were known to some but the subway posters continued to argue amongst themselves about the R211 equipment and potential locations. All I’m saying is that we should tamp down the arguments and take a step back and be realistic about this issue and future CBTC. My opinion. Carry on.

The problem, IMO, was that if all of those cars were preserved where were they going to be serviced and stored ? Yard space isn’t unlimited. In my division during the introduction of the R62 and R62A equipment the stored excess cars on the structure between 215 and 238 streets. The used Concourse yard for storage and the laid up trains on the structure from south of Pelham Parkway down to Bronx Park East while the new cars were tested and modified by the East 180th barn. IIRC Jamaica yard is at capacity. Don’t they store cars outside the yard limits? The posters seem to be suggesting that multiple types of cars should have been preserved but except for the Coney Island complex who has the room for those excess cars and their associated parts ? I’m just curious. Carry on.

I remember changing roll signs for the majority of my career as a M/M and as a C/R. Redbird equipment for the and the at Dyre, East 180, Utica, and especially Flatbush Avenue. There were C/R jobs that changed signs from Dyre to 241St during the pm rush hours at Flatbush. Quite frankly I think they should have the and the as the Astoria lines. I’m not sure if that’s the practice today at terminals that operate SMEE equipment. My take. Carry on.

I've brought Redbird trains to Livonia Yard, at the time they mainly handled R62A equipment, and there were times when Livonia handled it. Other times the occasional , or a rare would be in the yard for a temporary repair until it could be sent back uptown to it's own shop to be worked on. I'm guessing the practice is still systemwide. My experiences. Carry on.

Your last paragraph is on the money, in my opinion. The whole CBTC was supposed to be fully implemented in both divisions by now. That's what some of us in RTO were told in the late '90's. The inside joke was that in 25 years the system would need to be upgraded. Here we are and except for the test beds in B1, on the and the , we're still plodding along. I, personally, think the goal of CBTC full implementation is something that we need. The problem is the many changes in the specs and the different plans and players involved have pushed the project well into the future. The has too many things on it's agenda and no money to implement everything. Do you replace the R62s and R68s when you don't have a complete system installed ? I'm just asking because if you been reading about the CBTC and the ATS overlay for the last two decades, combined with the financial picture of the , you probably believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy too because the reality is that it's all smoke and mirrors. Fantasy Island stuff. My opinion. Carry on.

I happened to have a great conversation with a fellow retiree this afternoon about New York, City and State, and the . We both remember the conversation we had with supervision about the ATS system and CBTC especially as it pertained to the IRT. It was 25 years ago when we were told that the system would be implemented in 25 years, according to those who signed off on the plan. Our rabbi and those in his immediate circle called BS on the plans and it’s completion date. We laughed and said that the CBTC system would be obsolete and have to be upgraded by then. Little did we know back then that the specs would be redesigned a few times in that timeframe and the contracts redone and the completion date pushed back time and time again. It’s been 25 years and they’re still working on the IND 😁. I mentioned to him that the term “ network communication problem “ is now the code for CBTC screw ups as opposed to the old “ signal problem “ phrase we used to hear. When you are stuck behind a red signal it doesn’t matter to us. He said that he heard that 2040 was the new completion date for the whole project. When I mentioned Grand Central Madison to him he and his wife laughed and asked me how many stops have been completed past Parsons-Archer since they left NYC. We all laughed when I told them that there are actually New York residents who believe the BS the spouts . They told me that the same folks must be related to the Floridians who surround them. Just thought I’d let you know where my people stand. Carry on.

Care to elaborate ? Even though they claim that it’s a draft I, personally, don’t think they are going to change much in their final planning. I wonder how this compares with their borough bus redesign plans? My take. Carry on.

Happened to glance at the Sunday website of the Daily News. There’s an article about the old Rockaway Beach LIRR branch. The jist of the story is that reactivating the rail line is not gonna happen, period. Looking forward to hearing from you rail fans and your take. Carry on.

In the (real) old days in the IRT in the midnight's. Guess the process is system wide. cut 5+5 at VC cut 5+5 at New Lots cut 4+5 at Lenox cut 5+5 at Dyre All trains were added up after the midnight tour ended, usually with the original mate. No need to enter the yard. Carry on.

I've operated the Lenox Shuttle as a C/R and upfront from 148th St to 135 St. In my opinion the extension was long overdue. The excessive moves one needed to relay at 135, 9 cars south of the station, relay north to 135 middle, proceeding 9 cars north of the station, wrong railing back into the station on the n/b track. Time consuming to put it mildly. They finally cut the shuttle back to 5 cars but that introduced it's own set of problems. Five cars or nine cars the doors only opened at the two cars at the C/Rs position. Many Saturday nights there would be delays on the s/b at Allerton Avenue. There was a skating rink up there that always had problems, especially at closing time. IIRC it was called the "Skate Key". There were times that the was so delayed that the Command Center would tell us to take our consist south to 96th St where riders could transfer to the or even down to Times Square. We'd discharge, relay south of the Times Square station on the middle track and head back north to 135th St and pick up from there. That Times Square relay made things easier than the alternatives. Plus it's a whole lot easier than going down to 14th St and relaying back north. Just a little background. Carry on.

That’s par for the course with those in charge. I pointed out in another thread about the R211 fleet that we were told that the rollout would take 25+ years. The joke was that the software would be obsolete by then meaning that the project would never end. Those of us in the IRT were told that our ATS system was an overlay of the CBTC project and CBTC would come to us, too. From my vantage point the system appears to be for the IND exclusively with the BMT testbeds on the and the the exception. Before the other folks try to correct my BMT statement I’m guessing that only you and a few other people know that the has no connection to the IRT either back in the Command Center days or the RCC of today. Their radio frequency is B1 , same as the and the Franklin shuttle. Thanks for the update. Be safe.

Most of us are well aware of the problem. How, exactly, do you propose to overcome the problems that I stated? We're talking about a near bankrupt agency. Upgrading the signal system to CBTC was talked about 20+ years ago in RTO. That's why the and the were chosen as test beds for the CBTC systems. R143 and R142A/R188 cars. Even back then they knew that the signal system conversion would take over 25 years to complete and the chosen system would be outdated and need to be upgraded. The IRT was supposed to use CBTC too. Instead we got the ATS overlay and nothing else so far. It seems that the result will be a system of have and have not, a hybrid of old and new cars and signals for the foreseeable future. Just my take. Study the history of Transit in NYC and funding has always been the problem. Carry on.

It never ceases to amaze me that some railfans ignore the monetary and production line issues with new car orders. Neither NYCT nor the determine the production timing of private rail car manufacturing. There are other agencies around the country and worldwide who also place orders with the dwindling number of railcar manufacturers. I can assure you that these companies are not going to prioritize any order from the almost bankrupt while putting other agency's orders on the back burner. Come back to the real world sometimes. My opinion. Feel free to disagree if you like. Carry on.

I read that the person was a terminated cleaner who had some unauthorized RTO keys in his possession. The article said that he was a " buff ".