Trainmaster5

I’d love to see the projected ridership numbers via a reliable O&D method . I think we’re talking Port Jeff or West Hempstead type LIRR numbers. My take. Carry on.

I think you have a good point there. I’d like to add my take on cost. Maybe people are looking at line maps and such but from the Brooklyn waterfront area to the area around East New York station there’s little or no security around the trackage. There’s a reason why the LIRR and NY&A run scout/pilot trains up and down that section. I think everyone has to look at the big picture and that cost added to the project. My opinion. Carry on.

If one buys or builds a house next to an active rail line ( or inactive but existing one ) I have no sympathy for them. My first apartment was at the intersection of Livonia Avenue and East 98th Street in Brooklyn. The IRT elevated line turned from N-S to W-E at my bedroom window and a new fire station opened below it. The train didn't bother me but, according to the article, I should have protested the fire house. Wow. Sounds like the folks next to the RBB or those against the LIRR Third Track project in Nassau county. Carry on.

Finally I have someone who understands how things used to work before this ATS type technology began to take over the human initiative. We had a great dispatcher at Flatbush on the pm tour. Two or three southbound trains heading his way. He said that he was giving me a push out of the ‘Bush to make room for the arrivals. 16:45 out of Flatbush. Kept my call letters. Arrive at President Street at 16:47 or:48. .Utica tower asks for my call letters. They already know by my voice. No waiting and I’m on the move. ATS is introduced and that train is held by the system. Picked a different job that is scheduled to follow my old interval from Flatbush. I go in service at Bowling Green but because of the ATS system holding trains at the junction I actually leave Bowling Green 8 minutes ahead of time. Great deal for me and my conductor. It caused the Flatbush dispatcher to transfer to the B division and his ATD to move to Main Street. First come first served went bye bye and many of the folks who knew how to keep things together either moved on or retired rather than accept the new way of doing things. My experience. Carry on.

Your next to last sentence makes more sense, to me, than most of the previous postings I have read so far. Most seem to put the cart well before the horse. Exactly what type of equipment would be utilized on this "line" ? I happen to think the Cross Harbor Railroad component is more valuable than the commuter option , which is 60 years too late in my opinion. It would be beneficial to the South Brooklyn west-east bus network to a point. As far as projected ridership numbers are concerned how many posters over 20-25 years old believe any stats ? Come on now. My take.YMMV.Carry on.

I'm guessing this is for snow and ice removal. My take. Carry on.

I just know that this is sarcasm, right ?

As VG8 and I tried to point out go back to the official MTA site and check out the whole set of numbers. LIRR, MNRR, Express and local bus ridership numbers. Are you suggesting that everyone is farebeating ? Much of the subway ridership is because of those contributing factors. This is even before the Covid factor. Perhaps you and those who cosigned your observations are a minority view ? I came from a family meeting yesterday that included 17 people who commuted daily from the 5 boroughs and Long Island. 14 of them, all office employees, come to the office 2 or 3 times a week at most. They like it and their employers like it so even after this thing blows over that's going to be the New Normal . I predict that the will try to return to the pre-pandemic service level in the beginning. Since the business economy in the Downstate region determined the service levels historically after this shakes out I predict a reduction in service levels in parts of the transit system. Look at post 9/11 for example. WFH is a progression from the back office movement post 9/11. Business is the determining factor here. Read the business section of your newspaper or website. That's the future of mass transit in NYC. Just my take. I've been a New Yorker for 70+ years and a voracious reader and observer and listener over that time. Even the most ardent transit fans can't deny the situation. Like I said this is my prediction. YMMV. Happy New Year to all my fellow posters. Carry on.

I definitely agree with you 100% about the setup on CPW. The IND planners did the right thing with this idea. Express service for both trunks and local service for both. The plan benefits both trunks . Trains run for the public , not some foamers. That's why many old time posters left the forums years ago. The idea is to run services, subway, bus or railroad for the public. More or faster services that add transfers negate most perceived speed increases, IMO. I remember the arguments in the bus forums about some SBS bus routes. B44SBS route was one example. Faster than the regular B44 from end to end. Benefited the bean counters number wise but no one except the bus operator rides from terminal to terminal. Transfers =delays we were taught. Unnecessary transfers were definitely a no-no in any scenario. I believe that I posted a decade ago that school car instruction was that if speed was your number one priority NASCAR or the Coney Island Cyclone should be your future. Just my opinion. YMMV. Carry on.

Exactly where do see 80% ridership on the subway system ? I don't think it's hit 60 % of the pre-pandemic level yet. Just curious. Carry on.

If we're talking about Daniel the Cool, aka our own Daniel Smith, then I send him my congratulations. I think he deserves it and the results should have been made public sooner. Some of us older guys have little or no use for Facebook.

I was going to stay out of this discussion about the line signage and it seems that most posters are too young to know what the difference was supposed to mean. The diamond only meant Bronx peak direction service on the Lex line. 241 St- Gun Hill Road-East 180th St-149th and 3rd Avenue. Bronx Thru Express. PERIOD. I worked the for most of my career in RTO so trust me when I say that I've seen the changes and know the reasoning. My very first picked job on the was a pm run which started at Utica and ran up to 241 St. This was before the Redbird era, SMEE equipment, defaced with someone's idea of "art". There was no diamond display on the end sign. Just a 5. The towers and supervision knew what intervals we were by our marker light setup. Bronx Thru Express n/b on Lex meant Red over the cab and yellow marker lights on the offside. The display became problematic in the Redbird era. All service ran express from 3rd Avenue to East 180th but because of congestion at 241 St terminal in the evening rush which delayed service most WPR service on the became labeled as and ran local from East 180th St to 241St and eventually cut back to Nereid- 238th St. Dyre service was allowed to carry the side signs because it was determined that many confused riders at 149th St-Third Avenue in the pm rush were delaying trains unsure if the train was running express after that stop. The construction work at East 180th St around the station, and the introduction of the R142 equipment was the death knell for the signage. Even for the year or so period when my Conductor and I ran that R62A from Brooklyn up to Dyre we never used the signage because of two reasons. If we arrived at Dyre late and the train was needed immediately there was no one available and no time to change the signs. The same thing applied if we were turned somewhere enroute. I should point out that the procedure for trains originating at Flatbush Avenue during the SMEE era was slightly different. There were conductors assigned to work the platform there during the pm rush who changed signs. The dispatcher there would announce " changeover" over the station PA signifying changing the signage in the cars from Dyre to 241/238 and via Bronx Thru Express. My memories of that era. Carry on.

I’ve been trying to point this out to the forum for years. If the business locations are Midtown East or West the quickest route is south from 125th to Grand Central. What happened instead is a sop, a useless bone, thrown into the project without any real justification. I’m guessing that only a few people think this idea was worthwhile. As one of my mentors called some fellow posters years ago “ your little Lionel’s” because they didn’t live in the real world according to him. A man known throughout the subway system as “ TA” . An Insider respected by everyone. Just my opinion. Carry on.

Via Lexington

I’m trying to make sense of what actually happened here. If someone saw the perp enter a tunnel, either one, then power would be removed from that tunnel and not affect the other one. If it was a 12-9 situation the train would have been discharged and running light through the tunnel. Flashlights shining on the benchwall serve no purpose in a 12-9 which means, literally, a person under a train. I’m guessing that your train got a battery run because northbound trains were backed up in Brooklyn and they probably needed to send some trains via Alex. My take. Carry on.

What is fascinating to me about some ideas is the complete disregard or ignorance about what the agency is doing to the Nassau line. Stations and trackage are being rearranged to eliminate the infrastructure down there but we have some posters ignoring that and advocating more service from the south . That’s a nonstarter. The only service I recall terminating from the south in the Nassau line was the West End midday line. It only did that because there wasn’t any other place to turn trains back. IIRC the relay tracks north of Chambers are gone, perhaps removed now. The three terminals along Nassau were for the BMT Eastern Division trains coming from the north . Look at what’s being done to the LIRR Atlantic line to Downtown Brooklyn and the Lower Manhattan old time financial district. Nassau St is not a prime destination any more. All I ask is for some people to look at the big picture. The is broadcasting their plans. My take. Carry on.

I could see the original ROW of the NYW&B running down to a point where a connection could possibly be made to the SAS. The problem (s) are on the Bronx side of the idea, IMO. First of all today's line would have to revert back to the IND. SAS is B division equipment so the R142 cars on the would have to go elsewhere. I doubt that any part of the line needs twice as much service and equipment. The ROW of the Dyre line north of East 180th St was built for wider equipment. South of East 180th St the ROW doesn't exist any more. The stub tracks and ironwork are gone. Like the Culver Shuttle I believe the old ROW has been sold in that vicinity. I've wondered if the old ROW below Unionport Station could have been re-connected to the railroad line. That used to be the way subway equipment was swapped with the old Dyre shuttle. Of course that brings up the question of how to run subway equipment with/ alongside commuter rail. Your post brings up some things that I don't recall being discussed by the transportation folks in charge, either today or in the past. Great post. Carry on.

The was created because New York State was going broke trying to keep the LIRR running. That's why the TBTA was folded into the agency. The TBTA had money because of the toll money they collected. This way the state could avoid directly funding the railroad. Get the surrounding counties onboard as well as the City of New York with it's Transit Authority. It's similar to the NY Lottery gimmick where, IIRC, it's revenue was supposed to be added to the funding for education. Instead the state's funding was slowly reduced. Meanwhile the big player, the PANY&NJ, who had toll money wanted to be a real estate company, too. Remember they had to take on the PATH system, and it's losses, in order to build the WTC. Both states agreed and lo and behold the WTC was built. If it wasn't for government departments occupying much of the office space it wasn't a moneymaker. Throw in NYC and it's near bankruptcy and exactly whom was supposed to fund the ? You answered your own question IMO. I actually don't see much of a turf war between the PA and the because their core missions are not the same although there is some overlap. Both operate bridges but the is a heavy rail commuter agency while the PA deals with the ports and airport portion. That's why I try to point out the LGA AirTrain difference compared to the JFK one. People debate the subway extension through a neighborhood but the JFK AirTrain doesn't run on a city street . It runs down the middle of a Federal Highway. The LAX situation is great in theory but I think both NY and NJ because of the bi-state covenant which would seem to preclude a deal like that. Just my opinion. No argument intended. Carry on.

My experience with the Redbird fleet mirrors yours to a point. The and the actually had to swap fleets before the R142 cars were introduced. The cars were in somewhat " better " shape than the White Plains cars because they had less mileage. Think 241-Flatbush 24/7 vs Dyre- Bowling Green or Dyre-East 180th using a split consist of a 10 car R62a Pelham train as 2 shuttle trains. I happen to think the pre-GOH of the early to mid eighties were the low point of my and experience. I remember being an extra list C/R way back then and I would pray that I wouldn't pick up a job on the even if it started in Brooklyn at New Lots. Funny thing was that the ran 9 car consists of mixed equipment from Lenox to Flatbush with less problems than the in the early eighties. Every time I got turned around the Ferry it was because a had a problem. On the east side it was the pre-R62 Redbird fleet of the that couldn't climb the grade from Bowling Green to Brooklyn Bridge. Everyone had a different experience depending on if you were a passenger, C/R, or M/M- T/O back then. Carry on.

That's because some posters are unfamiliar with the history and the underpinnings of mass transit in the metropolitan area. They don't understand that the PANY&NJ, Via the two states and the bondholders, are the final arbiters of what gets built in the area because money talks. I remember walking around Livonia Yard and noticing that the PA, and not the MTA, purchased the R62a cars on the line back then. Each car had a plate stamped with that information located near the undercarriage. I look at the present financial outlook of the MTA and wonder if some posters understand what the real situation is. We're getting new subway cars, a new signal system, and an additional phase of the SAS. Only if the Federal government provides most of the money. The PA PATH system is not as constrained as NYCT is. Some of my friends and older family members have seen this program before. Southern Queens, Utica Avenue are still awaiting promised relief, 50 years for Queens and 70 years for Utica. Our consensus is that CBTC gets completed, some new rolling stock is purchased on a stretched schedule and the SAS expansion is next generation, if ever. BTW, the CBTC project lets trains run closer but where is it guaranteed that more service will be provided ? That's because with flexible hours and WFH options taking hold the traditional rush hours aren't that necessary any more. Before the argument that these improvements are paid for look up the R11" fleet " history and get back to me. My people and I see history being repeated yet many posters and the press are ignoring the obvious. My thoughts. Carry on.

You are correct that the PA is the operator of the airports. Same applies to the NYC subway system where the city owns it but operates it. predates the World Trade Center making the PA the interloper in that case. Your point about PATH / EWR indirectly answers the LGA situation. Carry on.

Because the states of NY and NJ signed covenants giving exclusive access rights to the Port Authority back in the day. It’s considered interstate commerce IIRC. That’s what we were taught in school. I happen to agree with you but it’s a federal issue not a local thing. Carry on.

Maybe someone can elaborate on the legal issues with these proposals for an old man. Isn't LGA Port Authority property ? Likewise doesn't this apply to JFK and EWR also ? I don't see the PANY&NJ allowing the or NJT to run any type of heavy duty rail onto their property. In other words it's AirTrain or nothing. Remember where the Express terminated ? Now explain to me how travelers on the Astoria Line can possibly get a " One Seat Ride " to LGA from the subway system or the LIRR. It seems to me that some of these ideas straddle the line between fantasy and outright illegality. We actually discussed this in schoolcar 40 years ago. My opinion. though. Carry on.

This whole idea of a split train is, IMO, bogus from the start. Simple solution is to run the from Astoria to 95th St days and evenings with a shuttle service midnights in Brooklyn. Give the the Queens Blvd local service weekdays and be done with it. The and bracket the line through most of Manhattan anyway. We have some people and the gushing over the new connections in Midtown so why not use it ? This way I think the gets more reliable in Brooklyn and ties in with the line while the becomes a part of the Jamaica yard. Before some people start crying about this thing remember that QBL connection was only a weekday thing when the Brighton local line ran out to Forest Hills. Even when the BMT-IND combination came into being it was the that provided weekday service only. Just my opinion. Carry on.

I’ve been retired for years but I’m not sure if the Car Equipment folks can be assigned to a specific location. That used to be up to a worker’s seniority. The person picked their location and tours. Has that been changed ? Carry on.