R40/R40A/R40S/R40M whats the deal?

[mark1447]

There is lots of confusing about R40/R40A/R40S/R40M

 

I need to know whats the real thing

 

Some people says R40"S" is added for Slants/Slopes by many rail fanners so they think they got knowledge lol and easy to know which has slanted ends.

 

Same for R40"M" (For Modified)

 

Is R40 = to R40S? (And its Really R40S?) Or the Orders with Fan but no A/Cs during the 60s?

Is R40A = to R40M (But the ends not Slanted)?

 

Its confusing on which is which. If anyone's gonna ans, i would prefer the most knowledgeable, the ones who really know about the R40(And its history kinda).

 

Thanks! And please stick with the topic!

[Art Vandelay]

The R40(4150-4349) order was for 200 unairconditioned cars, all of which had slant ends.

The R40A(4350-4549) order was for 200 airconditioned cars, half of which were slanted(4350-4449), half of which had straight ends(4450-4549).

 

As the MTA treated all slanted cars as one fleet, and all straight ended cars as one separate fleet, they used the designations R40S(4150-4449) and R40M(4450-4549) to distinguish between the two different fleets with the contract number R40(A).

 

The designation R40 has been used to refer to the whole fleet of R40 type cars(4150-4549), although sometimes it has been used to designate just the slant ended cars.

[mark1447]

The R40(4150-4349) order was for 200 unairconditioned cars, all of which had slant ends.

The R40A(4350-4549) order was for 200 airconditioned cars, half of which were slanted(4350-4449), half of which had straight ends(4450-4549).

 

As the MTA treated all slanted cars as one fleet, and all straight ended cars as one separate fleet, they used the designations R40S(4150-4449) and R40M(4450-4549) to distinguish between the two different fleets with the contract number R40(A).

 

The designation R40 has been used to refer to the whole fleet of R40 type cars(4150-4549), although sometimes it has been used to designate just the slant ended cars.

 

Well thats good to know, thanks! So most likly the ones out of Jamaica is really referred to as R40A not R40M?

[Maserati7200]

The R40(4150-4349) order was for 200 unairconditioned cars, all of which had slant ends.

The R40A(4350-4549) order was for 200 airconditioned cars, half of which were slanted(4350-4449), half of which had straight ends(4450-4549).

 

As the MTA treated all slanted cars as one fleet, and all straight ended cars as one separate fleet, they used the designations R40S(4150-4449) and R40M(4450-4549) to distinguish between the two different fleets with the contract number R40(A).

 

The designation R40 has been used to refer to the whole fleet of R40 type cars(4150-4549), although sometimes it has been used to designate just the slant ended cars.

 

Exactly.

 

Well thats good to know, thanks! So most likly the ones out of Jamaica is really referred to as R40A not R40M?

I doubt anyone in the refers to them as R40A

[Art Vandelay]

No. They are referred to as R40M.

 

BUT, when ordered, they were paid for by contract R40A, as were 1/3 of the slants.

[mark1447]

No. They are referred to as R40M.

 

BUT, when ordered, they were paid for by contract R40A, as were 1/3 of the slants.

 

Now I see, they were ordered as R40A with no Modified end but the (NYCT) retrofitted Straight end and converted it to R40M, but still an R40

[metsfan]

Yes. The R40a's are a second sub order for the R40, the R40(M) is much more similar to the R42 than the original R40.

 

The layout of certain things is more more similar between R40a and R42. The modified R40a are all most indistinguishable from the R42 aside from the outer body skin which has the telltail ribbing and c curve between the 2 angles. If you walked though a train on the inside, from R42, to R40a modified and notreally pay attention you'd not know, then when you hit the slant end R40a's you'd notice the slant ends as you pass between cars, but the interior is the same, then when you hit the original R40 you'd notice interior differences.

 

Also the window on the cab ends are very long on all versions of R40 whereas the R42 has the half length squareish window. The square window is also seen on the B end doors of the R40.

 

The order is R40, R40a, the modifieds are R40a modified, but people, me included use R40M. R40 has no designation official or otherwise, and only used by individuals as art said that think they know something. :cool:

 

- A

[mark1447]

Yes. The R40a's are a second sub order for the R40, the R40(M) is much more similar to the R42 than the original R40.

 

The layout of certain things is more more similar between R40a and R42. The modified R40a are all most indistinguishable from the R42 aside from the outer body skin which has the telltail ribbing and c curve between the 2 angles. If you walked though a train on the inside, from R42, to R40a modified and notreally pay attention you'd not know, then when you hit the slant end R40a's you'd notice the slant ends as you pass between cars, but the interior is the same, then when you hit the original R40 you'd notice interior differences.

 

Also the window on the cab ends are very long on all versions of R40 whereas the R42 has the half length squareish window. The square window is also seen on the B end doors of the R40.

 

The order is R40, R40a, the modifieds are R40a modified, but people, me included use R40M. R40 has no designation official or otherwise, and only used by individuals as art said that think they know something. :cool:

 

- A

 

thx lol, i know of course what an R40s, you forgot to add that the R40s has its rollsign in square like views and the destination sign is curved at theend while the R42s doesnt use that

 

but thx for the things i didnt know:cool:

[MTR Admiralty]

R40 is the general term for all cars in this class. That's the official designation. The last 200 cars were an additional order of these cars. Thus they were known as the R40A. The last 100 cars were built with modified ends because the slant design was unsatisfactory due to safety concerns. The R40M designation is popular for the railfan community to differentiate these cars from their slant variants, called the R40S.

[Art Vandelay]

I don't know why the designations R40M and R40S are considered to be "Railfan designations". Such designations have been used on the internal rosters, at least since overhaul.

 

The MTA never changed the end of any R40M from a slant to a straight end. The design was modified 3/4ths of the way through the order, and they were delivered in much the same way.

 

The only cars that the MTA greatly modified were the slant ended cars! Some of the gates were added at the factory(the gates actually consisted of 3 separate additions. Only the first two cars were delivered without any gates at all. I am not sure as to whether the last cars were delivered with full gates or whether they were immediately added by the MTA.)

 

The R40Ms did get pantograph gates on the front too, when the R42s did. That was a bit later though.

[MTR Admiralty]

The MTA never changed the end of any R40M from a slant to a straight end. The design was modified 3/4ths of the way through the order, and they were delivered in much the same way.

I meant during the ordering process. They wanted the last 100 cars to be built with straight-ends. There were no converts from slant to modified during this process.

[metsfan]

I don't know why the designations R40M and R40S are considered to be "Railfan designations". Such designations have been used on the internal rosters, at least since overhaul.

 

The MTA never changed the end of any R40M from a slant to a straight end. The design was modified 3/4ths of the way through the order, and they were delivered in much the same way.

 

The only cars that the MTA greatly modified were the slant ended cars! Some of the gates were added at the factory(the gates actually consisted of 3 separate additions. Only the first two cars were delivered without any gates at all. I am not sure as to whether the last cars were delivered with full gates or whether they were immediately added by the MTA.)

 

The R40Ms did get pantograph gates on the front too, when the R42s did. That was a bit later though.

 

Yea, it's very ironic that the slant ended cars got more post-delivery modifications than the R40Modified. :cool:

 

They (R40 1st set) originally came with the pantograph gates, then the doorway rails were added, then added again (farther up the sides of the door), then the end bonnets were modified to have a blank in place of the local/express designator sign. I believe the only modifications the R40M received were simply new end bonnets for cosmetic & structural reasons only.

 

- A

[INDman]

Yea, it's very ironic that the slant ended cars got more post-delivery modifications than the R40Modified. :cool:

 

They (R40 1st set) originally came with the pantograph gates, then the doorway rails were added, then added again (farther up the sides of the door), then the end bonnets were modified to have a blank in place of the local/express designator sign. I believe the only modifications the R40M received were simply new end bonnets for cosmetic & structural reasons only.

 

- A

 

The first order of R40s did not have any gates on them at all.

[R32 3348]

Generally, when referring to them it depends on the situtation you have to refer to them to. For example, if this was a few months ago and I said the ran R32s, R40s, R40Ms, and R42s, that'd be "wrong". Since R40s and R40Ms are part of the same fleet you can just refer to them as R40s since R40 is the general term for the entire fleet.

 

The same goes for saying the runs R40S/R40M - I'd just say the runs R40s (now if the R40M's were almost all off the I'd say something along the lines of "The runs R40S with a few R40M left).

 

Now that the only R40s left are the R40Ms, and I'm pretty sure everyone knows that, I still refer to them as just R40s since saying 'R40Ms' makes it a little redundant.

[metsfan]

The first order of R40s did not have any gates on them at all.

 

Yea sorry i shoulda chosen my words better, i meant the first modification came with the gates.

 

- A

[R44 5278]

The handle on the front of the R40s was eventually removed as more modifications took place.

[metsfan]

The handle on the front of the R40s was eventually removed as more modifications took place.

 

Yea, the lower mount point was used for the first set of shorter extension rails.

 

- A

[SubwayGuy]

R40M is NOT just a "railfan designation". It is used by most people in transit to refer specifically to R40 cars that do not have the slanted end.

[MTR Admiralty]

The first order of R40s did not have any gates on them at all.

 

They were added a little later after their debut, IIRC

[Maserati7200]

I'm not sure of someone has mentioned this, but the R40A's have a different pole arrangement than the R40's. R40's go in a straight line while the R40A's... don't.

[MTR Admiralty]

I'm not sure of someone has mentioned this, but the R40A's have a different pole arrangement than the R40's. R40's go in a straight line while the R40A's... don't.

They do, it's the air conditioning arrangement thing, isn't it?

[Maserati7200]

They do, it's the air conditioning arrangement thing, isn't it?

 

Probably

[R32 3348]

R40A's have two rows of poles (both in straight lines) to accomodate the AC units in between the rows of poles...i think

[Art Vandelay]

The pole arrangement was different because of different lighting arrangements.

 

The different lighting arrangements were due to the different ventilation systems, so saying it is due to A/C isnt entirely incorrect.

 

The order in which the R40S gates were added was as follows:

 

1 Lower doorside bar

2 Pantograph

3 Upper doorside bar

 

As was mentioned, there were grabirons on the first pair. This is the only pair which did not have the lower doorside bars.

[EE Broadway Local]

When the R40 Slants were new, they were like nothing else we had had. Slanted ends, a large square in the color of the route with the letter a large capital block letter in white in the center. the red/green local/express lights above the end doors which had a huge railfan window.

 

As ordered, the R40S didn't have the hardware that would be added as a safety feature) and which I think partly was a reason the order was modified to the flat ends.)