How does MTA define time for service changes

[jimbob60]

I am quite peeved tonight as I ride the E train, which has not seen normal service since the Reagan administration, to 23rd St/Ely Ave in Queens. There are no Queensbound trains from 10PM onward on 8th Avenue. But how is 10PM defined as the E starts at WTC and runs for over 20 mins before its last stop in Manhattan at Lex Ave. I entered 50th St just before 9:55PM tonight and asked the token booth clerk if trains were still running and was told 1 more train was. The Queensbound platfrom was quite crowded so there must have been a good 8-10 minutes since a train last past. A C train came on the upper level but there was no activity on the downstairs level. Finally people were told by track workers there were no more trains even as the token booth attendant told people to wait. In the meanwhile a very audible announcement was made advising people to use trash receptacles and telling us the time was now 10PM. Are these recorded announcements that play on the hour or are they live? If they are live, why could there have not been some announcement about no more E trains? So I walked over to Rock Center and hopped on an E only to realize that since last week not only is the E running on the F from 34 to 50th St but will now run on the F to Roosevelt Ave. I got off at 21st Queensbridge (not the greatest neighborhood) to take a shuttle bus. An attendant gave me a transfer (why no attendants at 50th St advising no more trains) for the shuttle bus but told me I had just missed one and would have to wait 20 mins. I went absolutely ballistic at him. Fortunately a Q66 came right away and I took that to Queens Plaza and walked to Ely Ave. Why can't service advisories give the last scheduled train instead of saying 10Pm or midnight for a stretch of stations covering over 20 mins. Is it 10PM from WTC or from Lex and 53rd. The whole incident brought back memories of the chaotic subways of the 70's and 80's. I though we were beyond that.

[CPBO]

I am quite peeved tonight as I ride the E train, which has not seen normal service since the Reagan administration, to 23rd St/Ely Ave in Queens. There are no Queensbound trains from 10PM onward on 8th Avenue. But how is 10PM defined as the E starts at WTC and runs for over 20 mins before its last stop in Manhattan at Lex Ave. I entered 50th St just before 9:55PM tonight and asked the token booth clerk if trains were still running and was told 1 more train was. The Queensbound platfrom was quite crowded so there must have been a good 8-10 minutes since a train last past. A C train came on the upper level but there was no activity on the downstairs level. Finally people were told by track workers there were no more trains even as the token booth attendant told people to wait. In the meanwhile a very audible announcement was made advising people to use trash receptacles and telling us the time was now 10PM. Are these recorded announcements that play on the hour or are they live? If they are live, why could there have not been some announcement about no more E trains? So I walked over to Rock Center and hopped on an E only to realize that since last week not only is the E running on the F from 34 to 50th St but will now run on the F to Roosevelt Ave. I got off at 21st Queensbridge (not the greatest neighborhood) to take a shuttle bus. An attendant gave me a transfer (why no attendants at 50th St advising no more trains) for the shuttle bus but told me I had just missed one and would have to wait 20 mins. I went absolutely ballistic at him. Fortunately a Q66 came right away and I took that to Queens Plaza and walked to Ely Ave. Why can't service advisories give the last scheduled train instead of saying 10Pm or midnight for a stretch of stations covering over 20 mins. Is it 10PM from WTC or from Lex and 53rd. The whole incident brought back memories of the chaotic subways of the 70's and 80's. I though we were beyond that.

 

 

Jimbo60 take things in stride man.....life is too short....if this way of getting home is not working out find an alternative....and please don't take it out on a guy that has no control of the system.....I get it all the time....where is the bus before you??.....it is not like they call me up and tell me the guy called in sick or broke down or whatever.....I just try to run my time and keep the bus moving safely to the next stop.....all I can do....

[S/A Vee]

Man i feel your pain. The start of GO's are very diffucult to setup. As a station agent who has to set these General orders up no information is given to us. Sometimes Go's start without the shuttle buses being there. If you call dispatcher you're lucky if there able to give u any info. I hate those useless announcements. I have recommended numerous times to have announcements at night to nofity passengers of the location of the next train or when service is disrupted. You dont need announcements at rush hour when trains are running 5-10 min apart. BTW if you can get on the 7 line to court house square, you'll have better service.

[jimbob60]

I donlt think it is asking too much for a bit of organization from the MTA. Life will be much shorter if we have to waste time waiting for subway trains that are not running. I should not have gone ballistic with the station attendant at Queensbridge. I did not insult him just used lots of expletives to describe the service. I am a rational person and can accept delays due to sick passengers (in the morning though, stay the hell home), 3 inches of rainfall in an hour around 6 AM, or mechanical failures. But there is no excuse for management incompetence. There should be station announcements when trains have actually stopped running at least until those London Underground like indicators are installed system wide. Train dispatchers should be able to give info to others on when the last train has left. The MTA should not be run with a no one gives a s**t attitude. We have moved beyond the 1970's-80's

[FamousNYLover]

Yesterday we got on Manhattan-bound local before midday G.O. and by the time we arrive at 74th St-Broadway, Manhattan-bound platform were closed.

[Urbanfortitude]

I personally love that G/O. Means I get a quicker ride back to Manhattan from Flushing when its happening on weekends.

[INDman]

An attendant gave me a transfer (why no attendants at 50th St advising no more trains) for the shuttle bus but told me I had just missed one and would have to wait 20 mins. I went absolutely ballistic at him. Fortunately a Q66 came right away and I took that to Queens Plaza and walked to Ely Ave.

 

Was that really necessary? And people wonder why some TA workers hate dealing with the public, it was not that guys fault you missed the bus or that S/A and some employees don't know what is happening all over the system at every second. It is you job to read the GO posters and know what is going on. Late night service changes are not a new thing so it should be expected that there could be a change. There is no reason to have flipped out on the attendant, it's your fault for not reading the posters.

[metsfan]

http://tripplanner.mta.info/NewTP/serviceAdvisories/ServiceAdvisoryAll.aspx

 

- A

[jimbob60]

Was that really necessary? And people wonder why some TA workers hate dealing with the public, it was not that guys fault you missed the bus or that S/A and some employees don't know what is happening all over the system at every second. It is you job to read the GO posters and know what is going on. Late night service changes are not a new thing so it should be expected that there could be a change. There is no reason to have flipped out on the attendant, it's your fault for not reading the posters.

 

I read the posters. My point was that 10PM is an ambiguous time if the last trains departs a station a good bit before 10PM. If the last E arrived 50th St at 9:45 or so it left WTC by 9:30. So 10PM on the posters is BS. I just yelled at the attendant about how screwed up everything is if shuttle buses run every 20 mins while trains run every 8 or so and the schedules are not in any way coordinated. I had to deal with the token booth attendant at 50th street who 3 times told people to wait as another train was coming only to then be told there were no more trains. The MTA is in a service business with some employees dealing frontline with the public. Accept that.

[cdi919]

I read the posters. My point was that 10PM is an ambiguous time if the last trains departs a station a good bit before 10PM. If the last E arrived 50th St at 9:45 or so it left WTC by 9:30. So 10PM on the posters is BS. I just yelled at the attendant about how screwed up everything is if shuttle buses run every 20 mins while trains run every 8 or so and the schedules are not in any way coordinated. I had to deal with the token booth attendant at 50th street who 3 times told people to wait as another train was coming only to then be told there were no more trains. The MTA is in a service business with some employees dealing frontline with the public. Accept that.

 

so does that give you the right to be a d!ck with ta employees? thats why i treat customers the way they treat me. if your nasty then i'm nasty. get the picture.

[MAA89]

I am surprised I didn't discover this thread before.

 

Only a few days back, the exact same thing happened to me. I got off at Broad Channel, hoping to take the to Beach 90th St. I got off at 11:00, and all the service change posters said that trains will terminate at Howard Beach from 11:30 onwards (i.e. no more service in the Rockaways from that point). The conductor of the train was also certain that the shuttle was still running. But after getting off, I saw no shuttle train parked in the usual place, and soon after a passenger came (apparently after visiting the station agent's booth) and said that there are no more shuttle trains. Me and a few other passengers went to the mezzanine and asked the S/A about it, he categorically denied that the GO starts at 11:30pm, instead showing us a GO leaflet saying 10:30pm, but which was for the October 23-26 GO (this was a week earlier). Of course, he said that shuttle buses are running, so I exited the station and walked to Cross Bay Blvd and waited at the shuttle bus stop.

 

Sure enough, I waited over 20 minutes and no shuttle bus turned up. Actually, quite a few did, but all of these displayed "Not in Service" on their front. Presumably they were being sent to Far Rockaway-Mott Avenue and Rockaway Park-Beach 116th St in preparation for the weekend. None of them stopped for the passengers (presumably because the operator thought we were Q53/Q21 passengers, and because they assumed the GO starts at 11:30 and they are not obliged to pick anyone up before that time). Eventually, I had to get on a Q53 at 11:25pm, not aware of whether or not a shuttle bus stopped at Cross Bay Blvd and Noel Rd a few minutes after us.

 

Problems with the scenario:

 

1) If the service change is scheduled to start at 11:30, I should be guaranteed train service until at least 5-10 minutes before that in either direction (i.e. until 11:20 or 11:25). Unfortunately, the last train to the Rockaways would have reached Mott Avenue about 11:15 and then would have been taken out of service, meaning that there probably wasn't any Manhattan-bound service after about 11:00pm, or 30 minutes earlier than scheduled.

 

2) The Rock Park could easily have made one last circuit from Broad Channel to B116th St and back after I got off at Broad Channel. The one-way journey takes only 10 minutes, and along with time taken to turn around, would easily have returned to its parking track at BC by 11:30pm. If that track needed to be kept clear, and the shuttle stored at the Rock Park yard, it could still have made one more run, picking up passengers getting off the last train at Broad Channel at 11:00 and being taken out of service upon getting to B116th St around 11:15.

 

3) If, for some drastic reason, the GO had to be started at 10:30pm (which it clearly wasn't, because then the train I was on would have been terminated at Howard Beach instead of carrying on to Far Rockaway), there should have been provisions for shuttle buses to pick up passengers from Howard Beach and Broad Channel from 10:30pm onwards. In fact, there was actually an hour-long lapse (if not longer) before the shuttle buses started picking up passengers. What am I supposed to do if my trip takes me to Broad Channel in that hour when some trains are running (e.g. to Far Rock), some are not (e.g. Rock Park ), and shuttle buses aren't picking up passengers? Effectively, Rockaway Park had no service for the entire hour.

 

4) The station agent was completely clueless about the start time for the GO. When informed that there is no train arriving or departing, he automatically defended himself by insisting shuttle buses are, when in fact they weren't and he probably had no idea if they were.

 

5) The would-be shuttle buses that went by with the Not in Service designation could have stopped for us. I mean, since they are going to Far Rockaway/Rockaway Park anyway, why does it matter if they pick up a few people before the first officially scheduled run? We are not Q53/Q21 users trying to get around paying a fare. We were only there because we were told the shuttle train is no longer running, even though all service advisories said the GO starts at 11:30pm.

 

6) I understand that GOs can be confusing for all concerned, but one would hope that station agents, dispatchers and bus and train operators/conductors would be well trained enough and have enough experience to properly coordinate the GOs. The GO in question has been taking place pretty much every weekend, so there is no excuse for not getting it right eventually.

 

Overall, I feel that mismanagement is endemic and something needs to be done, but the being a monopoly will always blame the riders for misunderstanding its ways instead.

 

I have been on trains that leave Manhattan around 11:15 to 11:25pm (i.e. make its first stop in Brooklyn at that time), and there is always confusion as to whether the train should go express or local. On one occasion, a C/R changed his mind three times while we stopped at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, causing confused passengers going to local stops to constantly get off and get back on again (we went local in the end). There doesn't seem to be any predetermined decision about whether the train should run local in Brooklyn or not, the actual decision is made once we get there. Once again, you would think these uncertainties would have been settled years ago.

[CPBO]

I am surprised I didn't discover this thread before.

 

Only a few days back, the exact same thing happened to me. I got off at Broad Channel, hoping to take the to Beach 90th St. I got off at 11:00, and all the service change posters said that trains will terminate at Howard Beach from 11:30 onwards (i.e. no more service in the Rockaways from that point). The conductor of the train was also certain that the shuttle was still running. But after getting off, I saw no shuttle train parked in the usual place, and soon after a passenger came (apparently after visiting the station agent's booth) and said that there are no more shuttle trains. Me and a few other passengers went to the mezzanine and asked the S/A about it, he categorically denied that the GO starts at 11:30pm, instead showing us a GO leaflet saying 10:30pm, but which was for the October 23-26 GO (this was a week earlier). Of course, he said that shuttle buses are running, so I exited the station and walked to Cross Bay Blvd and waited at the shuttle bus stop.

 

Sure enough, I waited over 20 minutes and no shuttle bus turned up. Actually, quite a few did, but all of these displayed "Not in Service" on their front. Presumably they were being sent to Far Rockaway-Mott Avenue and Rockaway Park-Beach 116th St in preparation for the weekend. None of them stopped for the passengers (presumably because the operator thought we were Q53/Q21 passengers, and because they assumed the GO starts at 11:30 and they are not obliged to pick anyone up before that time). Eventually, I had to get on a Q53 at 11:25pm, not aware of whether or not a shuttle bus stopped at Cross Bay Blvd and Noel Rd a few minutes after us.

 

Problems with the scenario:

 

1) If the service change is scheduled to start at 11:30, I should be guaranteed train service until at least 5-10 minutes before that in either direction (i.e. until 11:20 or 11:25). Unfortunately, the last train to the Rockaways would have reached Mott Avenue about 11:15 and then would have been taken out of service, meaning that there probably wasn't any Manhattan-bound service after about 11:00pm, or 30 minutes earlier than scheduled.

 

2) The Rock Park could easily have made one last circuit from Broad Channel to B116th St and back after I got off at Broad Channel. The one-way journey takes only 10 minutes, and along with time taken to turn around, would easily have returned to its parking track at BC by 11:30pm. If that track needed to be kept clear, and the shuttle stored at the Rock Park yard, it could still have made one more run, picking up passengers getting off the last train at Broad Channel at 11:00 and being taken out of service upon getting to B116th St around 11:15.

 

3) If, for some drastic reason, the GO had to be started at 10:30pm (which it clearly wasn't, because then the train I was on would have been terminated at Howard Beach instead of carrying on to Far Rockaway), there should have been provisions for shuttle buses to pick up passengers from Howard Beach and Broad Channel from 10:30pm onwards. In fact, there was actually an hour-long lapse (if not longer) before the shuttle buses started picking up passengers. What am I supposed to do if my trip takes me to Broad Channel in that hour when some trains are running (e.g. to Far Rock), some are not (e.g. Rock Park ), and shuttle buses aren't picking up passengers? Effectively, Rockaway Park had no service for the entire hour.

 

4) The station agent was completely clueless about the start time for the GO. When informed that there is no train arriving or departing, he automatically defended himself by insisting shuttle buses are, when in fact they weren't and he probably had no idea if they were.

 

5) The would-be shuttle buses that went by with the Not in Service designation could have stopped for us. I mean, since they are going to Far Rockaway/Rockaway Park anyway, why does it matter if they pick up a few people before the first officially scheduled run? We are not Q53/Q21 users trying to get around paying a fare. We were only there because we were told the shuttle train is no longer running, even though all service advisories said the GO starts at 11:30pm.

 

6) I understand that GOs can be confusing for all concerned, but one would hope that station agents, dispatchers and bus and train operators/conductors would be well trained enough and have enough experience to properly coordinate the GOs. The GO in question has been taking place pretty much every weekend, so there is no excuse for not getting it right eventually.

 

Overall, I feel that mismanagement is endemic and something needs to be done, but the being a monopoly will always blame the riders for misunderstanding its ways instead.

 

I have been on trains that leave Manhattan around 11:15 to 11:25pm (i.e. make its first stop in Brooklyn at that time), and there is always confusion as to whether the train should go express or local. On one occasion, a C/R changed his mind three times while we stopped at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, causing confused passengers going to local stops to constantly get off and get back on again (we went local in the end). There doesn't seem to be any predetermined decision about whether the train should run local in Brooklyn or not, the actual decision is made once we get there. Once again, you would think these uncertainties would have been settled years ago.

 

 

I ssoo remember that sort of stuff from the 90's.....my family lived in Broad Channel......I aaammm ssssoooo glad I do not live in that place anymore.....I hated it with a passion......because of the picture you just painted......so I feel for ya......but I would buy a car or move somewhere else.....that simple for me.......

[S/A Vee]

I am surprised I didn't discover this thread before.

 

Only a few days back, the exact same thing happened to me. I got off at Broad Channel, hoping to take the to Beach 90th St. I got off at 11:00, and all the service change posters said that trains will terminate at Howard Beach from 11:30 onwards (i.e. no more service in the Rockaways from that point). The conductor of the train was also certain that the shuttle was still running. But after getting off, I saw no shuttle train parked in the usual place, and soon after a passenger came (apparently after visiting the station agent's booth) and said that there are no more shuttle trains. Me and a few other passengers went to the mezzanine and asked the S/A about it, he categorically denied that the GO starts at 11:30pm, instead showing us a GO leaflet saying 10:30pm, but which was for the October 23-26 GO (this was a week earlier). Of course, he said that shuttle buses are running, so I exited the station and walked to Cross Bay Blvd and waited at the shuttle bus stop.

 

Sure enough, I waited over 20 minutes and no shuttle bus turned up. Actually, quite a few did, but all of these displayed "Not in Service" on their front. Presumably they were being sent to Far Rockaway-Mott Avenue and Rockaway Park-Beach 116th St in preparation for the weekend. None of them stopped for the passengers (presumably because the operator thought we were Q53/Q21 passengers, and because they assumed the GO starts at 11:30 and they are not obliged to pick anyone up before that time). Eventually, I had to get on a Q53 at 11:25pm, not aware of whether or not a shuttle bus stopped at Cross Bay Blvd and Noel Rd a few minutes after us.

 

Problems with the scenario:

 

1) If the service change is scheduled to start at 11:30, I should be guaranteed train service until at least 5-10 minutes before that in either direction (i.e. until 11:20 or 11:25). Unfortunately, the last train to the Rockaways would have reached Mott Avenue about 11:15 and then would have been taken out of service, meaning that there probably wasn't any Manhattan-bound service after about 11:00pm, or 30 minutes earlier than scheduled.

 

2) The Rock Park could easily have made one last circuit from Broad Channel to B116th St and back after I got off at Broad Channel. The one-way journey takes only 10 minutes, and along with time taken to turn around, would easily have returned to its parking track at BC by 11:30pm. If that track needed to be kept clear, and the shuttle stored at the Rock Park yard, it could still have made one more run, picking up passengers getting off the last train at Broad Channel at 11:00 and being taken out of service upon getting to B116th St around 11:15.

 

3) If, for some drastic reason, the GO had to be started at 10:30pm (which it clearly wasn't, because then the train I was on would have been terminated at Howard Beach instead of carrying on to Far Rockaway), there should have been provisions for shuttle buses to pick up passengers from Howard Beach and Broad Channel from 10:30pm onwards. In fact, there was actually an hour-long lapse (if not longer) before the shuttle buses started picking up passengers. What am I supposed to do if my trip takes me to Broad Channel in that hour when some trains are running (e.g. to Far Rock), some are not (e.g. Rock Park ), and shuttle buses aren't picking up passengers? Effectively, Rockaway Park had no service for the entire hour.

 

4) The station agent was completely clueless about the start time for the GO. When informed that there is no train arriving or departing, he automatically defended himself by insisting shuttle buses are, when in fact they weren't and he probably had no idea if they were.

 

5) The would-be shuttle buses that went by with the Not in Service designation could have stopped for us. I mean, since they are going to Far Rockaway/Rockaway Park anyway, why does it matter if they pick up a few people before the first officially scheduled run? We are not Q53/Q21 users trying to get around paying a fare. We were only there because we were told the shuttle train is no longer running, even though all service advisories said the GO starts at 11:30pm.

 

6) I understand that GOs can be confusing for all concerned, but one would hope that station agents, dispatchers and bus and train operators/conductors would be well trained enough and have enough experience to properly coordinate the GOs. The GO in question has been taking place pretty much every weekend, so there is no excuse for not getting it right eventually.

 

Overall, I feel that mismanagement is endemic and something needs to be done, but the being a monopoly will always blame the riders for misunderstanding its ways instead.

 

I have been on trains that leave Manhattan around 11:15 to 11:25pm (i.e. make its first stop in Brooklyn at that time), and there is always confusion as to whether the train should go express or local. On one occasion, a C/R changed his mind three times while we stopped at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, causing confused passengers going to local stops to constantly get off and get back on again (we went local in the end). There doesn't seem to be any predetermined decision about whether the train should run local in Brooklyn or not, the actual decision is made once we get there. Once again, you would think these uncertainties would have been settled years ago.

 

This is one the hardest GO's to setup. One the line is damm long. No one knows which is the last train. I have called dispatchers at both Rock Park and Mott Ave who both give conflicting information. And somtimes the times shown on the public GO posters are different from we have in the booth. Sometimes the shuttle buses don't show up on time and the trains have to continue running. I hate GO's so much.:mad:

[MAA89]

I ssoo remember that sort of stuff from the 90's.....my family lived in Broad Channel......I aaammm ssssoooo glad I do not live in that place anymore.....I hated it with a passion......because of the picture you just painted......so I feel for ya......but I would buy a car or move somewhere else.....that simple for me.......

 

Thanks for your reply. I am stuck in the Rockaways for the time being; I can't afford my own apartment elsewhere. Service is not too bad mostly, but the GOs and the open South Channel Bridge are two major hassles.

 

This is one the hardest GO's to setup. One the line is damm long. No one knows which is the last train. I have called dispatchers at both Rock Park and Mott Ave who both give conflicting information. And somtimes the times shown on the public GO posters are different from we have in the booth. Sometimes the shuttle buses don't show up on time and the trains have to continue running. I hate GO's so much.:mad:

 

I understand. I think the dispatcher at Rock Park might be at fault in my scenario, since the to Far Rockaway ran until near the start of the GO, but the Rock Park shuttle stopped running much earlier (around 10:30pm).

 

I really think there should be some redundancy built into the system, so, for example, there could be an overlap between the last few trains running to the Rockaways and the start of shuttle bus service. And the S/A or train dispatcher ought to be able to get in touch with the bus dispatcher and request that shuttle buses pick up passengers from a certain time (30 or 60 minutes) before the GO begins, so as to avoid problems if an unexpected problem keeps the last train(s) from running. As I said, redundancy (though inefficient) is the best way to ensure no one gets lost in the shuffle.