Old service patterns

[asidrane]

I was looking at an old subway map, pre-unification, and I noticed that the east side IRT turned west at 42nd st and headed uptown on the Broadway tracks over what is today the 42nd St. Shuttle. I was wondering, why did they get rid of this service pattern? also, was the southern part of the west side IRT not built at first?

[cotb16]

I was looking at an old subway map, pre-unification, and I noticed that the east side IRT turned west at 42nd st and headed uptown on the Broadway tracks over what is today the 42nd St. Shuttle. I was wondering, why did they get rid of this service pattern? also, was the southern part of the west side IRT not built at first?

 

That's right. From what I heard, there was an agreement not allowing any subway construction on Broadway in Lower Manhattan.

[fishmech]

I was looking at an old subway map, pre-unification, and I noticed that the east side IRT turned west at 42nd st and headed uptown on the Broadway tracks over what is today the 42nd St. Shuttle. I was wondering, why did they get rid of this service pattern? also, was the southern part of the west side IRT not built at first?

 

The original IRT as first built went up the present Lex Ave line from City Hall/Brooklyn Bridge to Grand Central, turned onto the shuttle tracks, and then proceeded up the west side 7th Ave/Broadway Line from there.

 

It stopped when the Lex was built north past GCT and the 7th Ave/Broadway was built south past what became Times Square. The original stations at GCT and Times Square were demolished, and new stations were built on the respective lines and for the shuttle.

 

 

This was the IRT a few months after opening

[asidrane]

It stopped when the Lex was built north past GCT and the 7th Ave/Broadway was built south past what became Times Square. The original stations at GCT and Times Square were demolished, and new stations were built on the respective lines and for the shuttle.

 

I thought GCT was the original station. After Penn Station was demolished, people didn't want GCT taken down as well, so it was restored.

 

So now we know what happened, but why? Is the upper west side to lower east side service pattern not one that could be useful today?

[fishmech]

I thought GCT was the original station. After Penn Station was demolished, people didn't want GCT taken down as well, so it was restored.

 

So now we know what happened, but why? Is the upper west side to lower east side service pattern not one that could be useful today?

 

No no no. I'm talking the Grand Central subway station, the original one NOT the terminal for regular trains. The tracks from the Lex to the shuttle tracks branch off before you get to the modern GCT subway station, which is north of the turn off, and on the other side, the modern Times Square station is south of the connection to the Shuttle tracks.

 

It could be useful today, but how would you thinkt he subway would handle having 4 tracks split off the Lex and cross over to the shuttle and then havign those same 4 tracks merge into the 7th Ave/Broadway? Also, you'd need to completely demolish the current shuttle platforms on both ends, considering on both ends the platforms are built over where the tracks used to go, and at Time Square there's even that removable block to get to one of the tracks (on the GCT side there's new access tracks built to connect to the Lex for the other tracks).

[EE Broadway Local]

Actually, in creating the Forty-Second Street Shuttle nothing was demolished.

 

In converting what had been a four track main line for shuttle use, changes were made, yes, but nothing was demolished.

 

Originally, Times Square was a local station, and as such, had two side platforms to serve the local tracks while Grand Central was an express station with two island platforms.

 

What was built at Times Square was an additional platform over. where the southbound express track once was plus a walkway on the north side that connects the platforms. The walkway actually is a bridge over the northbound local track that can be lifted.

 

What was built at Grand Central was, indeed, a planned new platform for the shuttle, but was never used - the two original island platforms were kept active. The trackways of the proposed shuttle station were originally covered with wooden flooring then with concrete. The platform was finished up and serves as a passageway between the shuttle platform and the Lexington Avenue platform.

 

With the decision to keep the original island platforms, a walkway was constructed at the south end to connect them. Since Grand Central was a former express station, the island platform was widened to cover the removed southbound express track.

 

Except for the platform over what once the southbound express track and the widened platform area of the island platform that is over what once was the southbound express track, you are in the original 1904 stations at Times Square and Grand Central.

 

At Times Square, Track 1 merges into the northbound Broadway local track while at Grand Central, Track 4 merges into the southbound Lexington Avenue local track. Also Track 2 doesn't exist any longer between Times Square and Grand Central,

[checkmatechamp13]

This wouldn't work because there isn't enough capacity to handle Lexington Avenue trains and the new 7th Avenue service. Service on both ends would have to be cut to allow for this new service and since the Upper East Side has overcrowded subway lines, this would not be doable.

[LRG]

Actually, in creating the Forty-Second Street Shuttle nothing was demolished.

 

In converting what had been a four track main line for shuttle use, changes were made, yes, but nothing was demolished.

 

Originally, Times Square was a local station, and as such, had two side platforms to serve the local tracks while Grand Central was an express station with two island platforms.

 

What was built at Times Square was an additional platform over. where the southbound express track once was plus a walkway on the north side that connects the platforms. The walkway actually is a bridge over the northbound local track that can be lifted.

 

What was built at Grand Central was, indeed, a planned new platform for the shuttle, but was never used - the two original island platforms were kept active. The trackways of the proposed shuttle station were originally covered with wooden flooring then with concrete. The platform was finished up and serves as a passageway between the shuttle platform and the Lexington Avenue platform.

 

With the decision to keep the original island platforms, a walkway was constructed at the south end to connect them. Since Grand Central was a former express station, the island platform was widened to cover the removed southbound express track.

 

Except for the platform over what once the southbound express track and the widened platform area of the island platform that is over what once was the southbound express track, you are in the original 1904 stations at Times Square and Grand Central.

 

At Times Square, Track 1 merges into the northbound Broadway local track while at Grand Central, Track 4 merges into the southbound Lexington Avenue local track. Also Track 2 doesn't exist any longer between Times Square and Grand Central,

 

You nailed it perfectly! I couldn't have said it better myself.

[asidrane]

Why was the southbound express track removed? Did they take it out to use it elsewhere in the system?

[EE Broadway Local]

Why was the southbound express track removed? Did they take it out to use it elsewhere in the system?

My best guess is the southbound express track was removed from service to allow another platform to be built at Times Square and the island platform to be widened between the northbound express track and southbound local track.

 

Since platform space was now over the track at each terminal, it possibly was felt the track wasn't needed between the stations.

 

This Shuttle Track Map may help clarify/illustrate what I'm describing: http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/grandcentral.html

[asidrane]

I understood what you said and why the track was removed from service, but to literally remove the track from the tunnel along 42nd st seems like a waste of money, unless the tracks was going to be used elsewhere. I was just wondering if that's why they would have done that.

[EE Broadway Local]

I see. It's possible the rails, ties and third rail from the former southbound express track might've been reused elsewhere.

 

While the actual track is gone, the trackway still remains between the stations.

[Far Rock Depot]

the service pattern where east side extended north and west side extended south with a crosstown shuttle was called the "'H' system".

 

I beleive there is still a portion of the unused midde track between GC and TS. I personally havent been on the shuttle in years, but i remember it being there.

[Fresh Pond]

Part of the southbound express track still exist...it connects the southbound local & the northbound express tracks (its a little stub though). Also, none of the tracks connect to both the Lex Av-end and the Bway-end at the same time. The southbound local track commects to the Lex Av line only and the northbound local track connects to the Bway line. That's how the shuttle goes to the mainline(s) for maintence.