NYC's mayors and their handling of the subway

[Joel Up Front]

Well, now that "You're a regular Fiorello LaGuardia" line from the original Taking of Pelham One Two Three makes much more sense...

 

But how did every other mayor of the city from 1904 on treat the subway?

[Nova RTS 9147]

Its important to note that contemporary mayors don't wield the same amount of power that LaGuardia did. Yea, Bloomy paid for the extension, but he can't determine the schedule or say which train should run where....ect.

 

Btw, I give im a F for only pretending to be concerned while sitting by and not advocating for low cost transportation.

[EE Broadway Local]

IIRC, Mayor Giuliani helped get the extended to Brooklyn Bridge late nights in 1998.

 

Prior to then, the ran Pelham Bay Park to 125th Street late nights and the was the only service on Lexington Avenue.

 

Have you ever heard the story about Mayor John Hylan (1918-1925)? While he was attending law school at night, he worked as a motorman for the B.R.T. (Brooklyn Rapid Transit). One day, an Inspector caught him rounding a curve too fast and he was fired.

 

He was our mayor on November 1, 1918 and after the Malbone Street disaster, he waged a self-declared war against the B.R.T.,` constantly thwarting attempts at B.R.T. expansion.

 

One of the B.R.T. projects he blocked was the project that became the Coney Island Yards and Shops (which did come to fruition under Mayor Jimmy Walker).

 

Source: The Subway Stan Fischler pages 62-63

[MikeGerald]

The assistance Mayor Rudy G in eliminating the #6 shuttle is one of the few things that I credit him doing that was really useful (another being the addition of a midnight ferry leaving the Whitehall Terminal on weeknights). At the time, Mayor Rudy G - claimed that riders on the Upper Eastside had to wait a long time in the cold as his reasons to restore the #6 service - as if #6 riders did not have a diffiicult time with the shuttle. There were plenty of times, (and I mean plenty of times) when the #6 shuttle and the #4 train did not meet - meaning that folks had to wait an extra 20-40 minutes getting where they are going. Years of un-necessary hassle dealing with the #6 shuttle - so I'm glad that he got that changed. Just one of the few things that he did that actually helped people.

 

Mike

[SmallParkShuttle]

Well, now that "You're a regular Fiorello LaGuardia" line from the original Taking of Pelham One Two Three makes much more sense...

 

But how did every other mayor of the city from 1904 on treat the subway?

 

In my opinion, with a ten-foot pole. They touched on the issues, but never fully considered the subway as an integral (if not essential) factor to the life of NYC. In all cases, the subway was (and is) expected to run and pay for itself. Reform never went past reorganization into important ares like financing.

 

Hylan talked about independence, but choked the BMT and IRT from expansion and financial stability. LaGuardia achieved unification, but treated the subway like a private business, expecting it to run itself. 50s? 60s? nothing to talk about. The only true love the subway got was internal, with guys like Gunn.

 

The issue of rapid transit has always been a political touchy for any official of New York. Since they worry about their careers, they will never take a firm stand on (or even a firm look at) these issues.

[EE Broadway Local]

Our mayor, Mayor John Vliet Lindsey (1966-1973) had a bit of a rough start, but was a subway fan.

 

On New Year's Day 1966 the New York City Transit Strike began and lasted twelve days.

 

Unfortunately, on April 29, 1973 the 70(8) Third Avenue El was closed.

 

On October 27, 1972 Mayor Lindsay (and Governor Rockerfeller) broke ground at East 102d Street and Second Avenue for the Second Avenue Subway (the line was going to be the ).

 

On November 24, 1969, construction began on the East 63d Street Line and 63d Street Tunnel.

 

The R38s successfully introduced air conditioned subway cars to our subway.

 

The R40 Slants introduced a revolutionary subway car design and the large block white capital letter for the route.

 

Mr. Massimo Vignelli produced a revolutionary new subway map design.

 

Mayor Lindsay got the ball rolling for the movie version of The Taking Of Pelham One Two Three by Mr. John Godey.

[GreatOne2k]

The assistance Mayor Rudy G in eliminating the #6 shuttle is one of the few things that I credit him doing that was really useful (another being the addition of a midnight ferry leaving the Whitehall Terminal on weeknights). At the time, Mayor Rudy G - claimed that riders on the Upper Eastside had to wait a long time in the cold as his reasons to restore the #6 service - as if #6 riders did not have a diffiicult time with the shuttle. There were plenty of times, (and I mean plenty of times) when the #6 shuttle and the #4 train did not meet - meaning that folks had to wait an extra 20-40 minutes getting where they are going. Years of un-necessary hassle dealing with the #6 shuttle - so I'm glad that he got that changed. Just one of the few things that he did that actually helped people.

 

Mike

 

This was also the same time the became local late nights.

[IRT Bronx Express]

 

Prior to then, the ran Pelham Bay Park to 125th Street late nights and the was the only service on Lexington Avenue.

If I'm not mistaken, I saw a sign at Westchester Square in 2008 or 2009 that read "(6) to Brooklyn Bridge * Late nights to 125 St." I don't know if that was corrected eventually.

[CenSin]

This was also the same time the became local late nights.

I wouldn't mind, since I found myself at a local station on 7 Avenue one night. I had to take the to get to Brooklyn and since trains take bloody ages to come at night, reducing transfers by making trains run local doesn't seem like a bad idea. The trains are pretty empty at night anyway, so they might as well as make the most of it by running them local. Going by this logic, the and should also be local at night.

[MikeGerald]

The effort to make midnight hour express all local was really a product of the city's fiscal crisis, and the budget crisis affecting the subways. The effort was about cost cutting first, and second about providing quick service at local stations the major and continuing changes started in the mid-1970s.

 

For example one of first the examples was the elimination of the AA train circa 1975, the Manhattan 8th Avenue local, where the A-train was also local in Brooklyn, Queens and the Rockaways. Removing the AA train was first proposed as an all-times but rush hour operation in the early-mid 1970's, but there was opposition. However during the midnight hours the AA-train was the first to be eliminated. During the midnight hours all lines operated on a 20-minute headway schedule - with many of the midnight hour shuttle operations timed to meet the continuing train.

 

Prior to that time, the westside IRT had the midnight hour #1 and #2 lines, the 8th Avenue line had the A, AA and E lines, the Sixth Avenue line had the D and F lines (and depending the B-train in segments), BMT-Broadway had the N and RR lines (where the QB ran rush hours, and EE ran normal hours); the Nassau line had the J-train with the M-train as a shuttle. Express service operated all through the midnight hours period In Manhattan along the #2, #4, A-train, D-train; E and F trains in Queens, N-train in Manhattan and Brooklyn along the Pacfic St - 36th Street segment. Local lines such as the #1, #6, E and F trains (Manhattan, F-train Manhattan and Brooklyn), RR (Astoria, Manhattan and Brooklyn), plus the GG (full length Queens & Brooklyn), J, M-shuttle, B-shuttle, #5-shuttle, the Rockaways Round Robin service, the L-line - and any other all local lines operated on a 20-minute headway schedule.

 

During the midnight hours, the #4 was typically extended to Flatbush Avenue (and later New Lots Avenue) when the #3-line retired for the night, where it was all local in Brooklyn. The B-train along the West-End line in Brooklyn became a midnight hour shuttle, with the 57th Street-Sixth Avenue station closed, however sometimes over time there was a shuttle operation. When the 63rd Street segment opened, a shuttle operation was used during the midnight hours. The #3 segment in Harlem had a midnight hour shuttle operation, but over time those stations would be closed with substituted bus service, and then later train shuttle re-instated. Currently the #3 has a more extensive midnight hour service compared to previous decades. For several decades the Dyre Avenue segment had a midnight hour shuttle operation, as well as the removal of midnight hour Lexington Avenue service along the Westchester Avenue - White Plains Road segment in favor of midnight hour westside service continues.

 

Since the mid-1970's there has been a steady erosion of midnight-hour express service. One idea prevalent at the time was to reduce as much express service as possible, and to reduce as many lines as possible to shuttle operations. Since both the #1 and the #2 line had extensive service in the Bronx and for the #2 in Brooklyn - the #2 was simply made local. With the AA eliminated, the 8th Avenue line had only the A, D and E lines, with the D-train somehow remaining express along CPW.

 

On the BMT-Broadway line the RR remained as an all night local (circa 1975-6) with the N-train becoming a shuttle operation - about a decade later when they switched terminals the N-train became the midnight hour local. Of course the renovation work of the Manhattan Beach brought about other changes.

 

Along Queens Blvd, one proposal was for ending the GG at Queens Borough Plaza with both E and F trains all local to 179th Street. However over time there were several changes to Queens Blvd midnight hour service, and the implementation of the Archer Avenue extension. The connection and use of the 63rd Street tunnel brought about other changes in the recent decade.

 

Another change was the elimination of #6 service south of 125th Street-Lexington, since the #4 was made a midnight local. Now since the RR was the lone local in Brooklyn, the A-train the lone local in Brooklyn, Queens and Rockaways, every line in the Bronx and Brooklyn was all local anway - the shuttling of the #6 line fit in with the general policy. The difference was that it left the #4 line as the sole route for the whole eastside of Manhattan.

 

Those were the changes about 1975-6 - and the start of the removal of the midnight hour express lines. Now most folks think it is normal for all local service during the midnights.

 

Mike

[Nova RTS 9147]

I wouldn't mind, since I found myself at a local station on 7 Avenue one night. I had to take the to get to Brooklyn and since trains take bloody ages to come at night, reducing transfers by making trains run local doesn't seem like a bad idea. The trains are pretty empty at night anyway, so they might as well as make the most of it by running them local. Going by this logic, the and should also be local at night.

 

Does Broadway really carry like that enough to justify two local lines on Broadway? Same for the 6th Avenue/Central Park West lines?

[CenSin]

Does Broadway really carry like that enough to justify two local lines on Broadway? Same for the 6th Avenue/Central Park West lines?

I wonder if express is justified for the few people on the train. I've found myself in quite a number of instances where I was on a local station—most frequently along 7 Avenue or Broadway. Would it severely inconvenience passengers on a train to cut back on 3 to 5 minutes saved in order to save 20 to 30 minutes of another few passengers' time? This is night time service we're talking about, and in the cold dead silence the tens of extra minutes adds up to bloody ages. Even at an express station, I would not complain about my train running local, because some service is better than none.

[Nova RTS 9147]

I wonder if express is justified for the few people on the train. I've found myself in quite a number of instances where I was on a local station—most frequently along 7 Avenue or Broadway. Would it severely inconvenience passengers on a train to cut back on 3 to 5 minutes saved in order to save 20 to 30 minutes of another few passengers' time? This is night time service we're talking about, and in the cold dead silence the tens of extra minutes adds up to bloody ages. Even at an express station, I would not complain about my train running local, because some service is better than none.

 

I understand you. I just notice that some of these stations (along the 6th Ave line and Broadway line) are pretty empty during nights, which is why I ask. Having said that, if the runs local tomorrow during nights, no one who matters would care. Honestly, I feel the should be local in Queens and the should also be local along Central Park West.

[MikeGerald]

Would you believe that in the past when F-train service in Queens was made local, other transit fans on the forums have reported that Queens politicians have recieved compliants from residents that the train rides are very long - taking a lot of time, and that the residents wanted their express service back. Yes, its true - that has happened before.

 

The number of midnight hour express runs have been so reduced over the decades that the ones that remain can almost be justified as simply an "ease of operation" project. Giving the D-train exclusive use of the express tracks along CPW and Sixth Avenue means less hassle for the tower operators along that segment, and the same can be said for the F-train in Queens. Keeping the Q-train express can be for similar reasons. Such that the "savings" would be an illusion.

 

Sometimes the decisions boil down to an equity or fairness issue, unless the various communities become really upset and demand "action". The restoration of the full length #6 route can easily be based upon fairness and equity - since Lexington Avenue is the only full length line on the eastside.

 

The issue of midnight service often gets talked about in a way that says something like, "who rides the subways at those hours" -- when the answer is plenty of people for various reasons. Usually those who ask the question often talk about such riders in a negative way, as if the needs of those riders are of no concern to "regular people". That kind of talk has to stop.

 

While it is not pleasant to have to sit through the trains making every stop, the period when there was express service in Manhattan on the trunk lines - did mean that sometimes folks were waiting for their connections. The persons that were said to benefit the most from the all local service midnight hours were Manhattan riders who could confine their trips to the places with the most Manhattan service even during the midnight hours. Meaning that those in the "outer boroughs" do not see and would not see a great benefit - even the Queens Blvd riders.

 

Mike

[GreatOne2k]

The effort to make midnight hour express all local was really a product of the city's fiscal crisis, and the budget crisis affecting the subways. The effort was about cost cutting first, and second about providing quick service at local stations the major and continuing changes started in the mid-1970s.

 

For example one of first the examples was the elimination of the AA train circa 1975, the Manhattan 8th Avenue local, where the A-train was also local in Brooklyn, Queens and the Rockaways. Removing the AA train was first proposed as an all-times but rush hour operation in the early-mid 1970's, but there was opposition. However during the midnight hours the AA-train was the first to be eliminated. During the midnight hours all lines operated on a 20-minute headway schedule - with many of the midnight hour shuttle operations timed to meet the continuing train.

 

Prior to that time, the westside IRT had the midnight hour #1 and #2 lines, the 8th Avenue line had the A, AA and E lines, the Sixth Avenue line had the D and F lines (and depending the B-train in segments), BMT-Broadway had the N and RR lines (where the QB ran rush hours, and EE ran normal hours); the Nassau line had the J-train with the M-train as a shuttle. Express service operated all through the midnight hours period In Manhattan along the #2, #4, A-train, D-train; E and F trains in Queens, N-train in Manhattan and Brooklyn along the Pacfic St - 36th Street segment. Local lines such as the #1, #6, E and F trains (Manhattan, F-train Manhattan and Brooklyn), RR (Astoria, Manhattan and Brooklyn), plus the GG (full length Queens & Brooklyn), J, M-shuttle, B-shuttle, #5-shuttle, the Rockaways Round Robin service, the L-line - and any other all local lines operated on a 20-minute headway schedule.

 

During the midnight hours, the #4 was typically extended to Flatbush Avenue (and later New Lots Avenue) when the #3-line retired for the night, where it was all local in Brooklyn. The B-train along the West-End line in Brooklyn became a midnight hour shuttle, with the 57th Street-Sixth Avenue station closed, however sometimes over time there was a shuttle operation. When the 63rd Street segment opened, a shuttle operation was used during the midnight hours. The #3 segment in Harlem had a midnight hour shuttle operation, but over time those stations would be closed with substituted bus service, and then later train shuttle re-instated. Currently the #3 has a more extensive midnight hour service compared to previous decades. For several decades the Dyre Avenue segment had a midnight hour shuttle operation, as well as the removal of midnight hour Lexington Avenue service along the Westchester Avenue - White Plains Road segment in favor of midnight hour westside service continues.

 

Since the mid-1970's there has been a steady erosion of midnight-hour express service. One idea prevalent at the time was to reduce as much express service as possible, and to reduce as many lines as possible to shuttle operations. Since both the #1 and the #2 line had extensive service in the Bronx and for the #2 in Brooklyn - the #2 was simply made local. With the AA eliminated, the 8th Avenue line had only the A, D and E lines, with the D-train somehow remaining express along CPW.

 

On the BMT-Broadway line the RR remained as an all night local (circa 1975-6) with the N-train becoming a shuttle operation - about a decade later when they switched terminals the N-train became the midnight hour local. Of course the renovation work of the Manhattan Beach brought about other changes.

 

Along Queens Blvd, one proposal was for ending the GG at Queens Borough Plaza with both E and F trains all local to 179th Street. However over time there were several changes to Queens Blvd midnight hour service, and the implementation of the Archer Avenue extension. The connection and use of the 63rd Street tunnel brought about other changes in the recent decade.

 

Another change was the elimination of #6 service south of 125th Street-Lexington, since the #4 was made a midnight local. Now since the RR was the lone local in Brooklyn, the A-train the lone local in Brooklyn, Queens and Rockaways, every line in the Bronx and Brooklyn was all local anway - the shuttling of the #6 line fit in with the general policy. The difference was that it left the #4 line as the sole route for the whole eastside of Manhattan.

 

Those were the changes about 1975-6 - and the start of the removal of the midnight hour express lines. Now most folks think it is normal for all local service during the midnights.

 

Mike

 

#2 was express 24/7 until 1999. #2, D, and Q remained express after the 1980 cuts. Keeping the #2 express was cheaper at a time they wanted to cut service. Making it local would have doubled service.

 

The #5 used to run until after 1am at one point.