Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[Vulturious]

2 hours ago, 40 to 241st said:

So were deleting the M15

I highly doubt the MTA will end up deleting the M15 bus route if it's still seeing considerable ridership. The point of the SAS is to provide the needed extra subway service on the east side of Manhattan to with one goal to also alleviate congestion along the Lexington Av line. A lot of those riderships could be coming from there (depending on whether or not they aren't headed towards the west side of Manhattan in midtown). 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Vulturious

[Reptile]

4 hours ago, 40 to 241st said:

So were deleting the M15

No? The M10, M104, M101, M102, M103, Bx1, Bx2, B25 etc etc all run along subway lines and they still exist

[40 to 241st]

38 minutes ago, Reptile said:

No? The M10, M104, M101, M102, M103, Bx1, Bx2, B25 etc etc all run along subway lines and they still exist

Good point but the  runs the same route as the M15 it's just that the M15 goes to the ferry and the SAS dosen't but I suggest keeping it b/c it has the current highest ridership so that means once the  is out the Bx12 will the have the highest ridership. Correct me if I'm wrong

[Reptile]

13 minutes ago, 40 to 241st said:

Good point but the  runs the same route as the M15 it's just that the M15 goes to the ferry and the SAS dosen't but I suggest keeping it b/c it has the current highest ridership so that means once the  is out the Bx12 will the have the highest ridership. Correct me if I'm wrong

They will keep it of course, and yes the BX12 will have the highest ridership if the M15 loses riders to the

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

15 hours ago, JustTheSIR said:

But, the cost doesn’t have to be directly correlated with ridership. Sure it needs to be able to hold up under the weight of hundreds of thousands of riders a day but it shouldn’t be as expensive as Phase 1

Ye, the cost certainly isn't justified, but given how many people a public transit line in NYC can serve, it sucks that so few politicians actually take much interest in building any.

I think one underrates problem is that subways generally take at least 5 years to build, whereas a lot of large highway projects can be reasonably done within a few years at worst. This means that by the time the actual subway project is completed, that politician may no longer be in office and won't be able to ever take credit.

[Wallyhorse]

9 hours ago, Vulturious said:

I highly doubt the MTA will end up deleting the M15 bus route if it's still seeing considerable ridership. The point of the SAS is to provide the needed extra subway service on the east side of Manhattan to with one goal to also alleviate congestion along the Lexington Av line. A lot of those riderships could be coming from there (depending on whether or not they aren't headed towards the west side of Manhattan in midtown). 

Exactly, EVEN WITH THE SAS, the M15 is one of the most heavily used bus routes in the entire city (and I grew up often riding the M15 up and down 1st and 2nd Avenue).  The M31 on York Avenue I believe was finally extended all the way across 57th Street in the 90s to help take some ridership off the M15 as I remember especially on 57th many people transferring from the M28 (the actual 57th Street crosstown) to the M15 in particular (previously, the M31 went across 61st Street to Lexington and ended at 59th and Lex).  

The M15 isn't going anywhere.

[Wallyhorse]

On 5/14/2023 at 11:25 PM, Wallyhorse said:

Exactly, EVEN WITH THE SAS, the M15 is one of the most heavily used bus routes in the entire city (and I grew up often riding the M15 up and down 1st and 2nd Avenue).  The M31 on York Avenue I believe was finally extended all the way across 57th Street in the 90s to help take some ridership off the M15 as I remember especially on 57th many people transferring from the M28 (the actual 57th Street crosstown) to the M15 in particular (previously, the M31 went across 61st Street to Lexington and ended at 59th and Lex).  

The M15 isn't going anywhere.

Adding:

The only way I can see the M15 being deleted (or cut back at all) is if we ever have BOTH a full SAS AND a fully rebuilt 3rd Avenue EL that would between them take enough traffic off the M15 to warrant cutting the M15 back.  THAT is how busy the M15 is.

[CenSin]

On 5/18/2023 at 9:26 PM, Wallyhorse said:

The only way I can see the M15 being deleted (or cut back at all) is if we ever have BOTH a full SAS AND a fully rebuilt 3rd Avenue EL that would between them take enough traffic off the M15 to warrant cutting the M15 back.  THAT is how busy the M15 is.

How do you explain the M20? It tracks the 7 and 8 Avenue lines from Fi-Di to Columbus Circle.

[Wallyhorse]

3 hours ago, CenSin said:

How do you explain the M20? It tracks the 7 and 8 Avenue lines from Fi-Di to Columbus Circle.

M15 is something I have complete familiarity with as that was for years my home bus line (with the M31 as well) growing up on the upper east side.  I remember what is now the M20 more as the M10 and while that was crowded, it was NOTHING like the M15.  

[Reptile]

I believe this is the best the MTA can do with a 2-track SAS and no deinterlining.

125 Street - Broadway to Lefferts Blvd via 125 Street, 2nd Avenue, Fulton Street Exp

College Point to Brighton Beach via Northern Blvd line, 2nd Avenue, Manhattan Bridge, Brighton Exp

Fordham Rd to Coney Island via 3rd Avenue, 2nd Avenue, Broadway Exp and Brighton Lcl

Instead of running to Brighton Beach, the will run via the line to Metropolitan Ave. The will operate as the Culver Express to Kings Hwy. Late nights/weekends the operates the old line's route (Forest Hills to 2 Av) and the runs from Metropolitan Av to Essex St/Myrtle Av.

The route in Brooklyn is meant to parallel the while the parallels the . This reinforces the SAS' goal of helping reduce congestion on Lexington.

Also the will be extended up Jewel Avenue in Queens to 188 St, reducing the need for a LIE and Union Tpke subway.

At some point another route to Throgs Neck will be created

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10 hours ago, Reptile said:

I believe this is the best the MTA can do with a 2-track SAS and no deinterlining.

125 Street - Broadway to Lefferts Blvd via 125 Street, 2nd Avenue, Fulton Street Exp

College Point to Brighton Beach via Northern Blvd line, 2nd Avenue, Manhattan Bridge, Brighton Exp

Fordham Rd to Coney Island via 3rd Avenue, 2nd Avenue, Broadway Exp and Brighton Lcl

Instead of running to Brighton Beach, the will run via the line to Metropolitan Ave. The will operate as the Culver Express to Kings Hwy. Late nights/weekends the operates the old line's route (Forest Hills to 2 Av) and the runs from Metropolitan Av to Essex St/Myrtle Av.

The route in Brooklyn is meant to parallel the while the parallels the . This reinforces the SAS' goal of helping reduce congestion on Lexington.

Also the will be extended up Jewel Avenue in Queens to 188 St, reducing the need for a LIE and Union Tpke subway.

At some point another route to Throgs Neck will be created

This is interesting. I just have 2 concerns:

1. How would the  be the Fulton Express? The abandoned outer tracks the  could connect too are for local while the inner currently in use are for the express. Having the  all cross over eachother would be problematic, and I don't think trying to build a whole new junction would be worth it. You could just have the  run as Fulton Local for the benefit.

2.  serving North Blvd alone and being limited to about 4 minute headways could be problematic if the line becomes popular. Furthermore, an  running that frequently having to merge with the  for the Northern Tracks of Manhattan Bridge and then through DeKalb sounds like a recipe for delays and backups.

I generally agree with the premise though. I think you should either choose to have SAS fully take over the Northern Tracks of the Bridge or run as the Fulton Local via a new tunnel, not both.

[Wallyhorse]

1 hour ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

This is interesting. I just have 2 concerns:

1. How would the  be the Fulton Express? The abandoned outer tracks the  could connect too are for local while the inner currently in use are for the express. Having the  all cross over eachother would be problematic, and I don't think trying to build a whole new junction would be worth it. You could just have the  run as Fulton Local for the benefit.

2.  serving North Blvd alone and being limited to about 4 minute headways could be problematic if the line becomes popular. Furthermore, an  running that frequently having to merge with the  for the Northern Tracks of Manhattan Bridge and then through DeKalb sounds like a recipe for delays and backups.

I generally agree with the premise though. I think you should either choose to have SAS fully take over the Northern Tracks of the Bridge or run as the Fulton Local via a new tunnel, not both.

Exactly!  Putting the on Fulton means its the Fulton local since it likely would come into Hoyt-Schermerhorn on what currently are the Museum tracks, as I would do it with a new Schermerhorn Street tunnel that would come into what is the current Transit Museum at Court Street before stopping at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and allow the and  to both be express on Fulton with the  likely to Lefferts and the running to Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park.  Late nights, the would be extended to Lefferts while the would be Far Rockaway only while the Broad Channel-Rockaway Park would be used then.  

[CenSin]

If the 2 Avenue tracks were to connect to Fulton Street tracks in Brooklyn, then one idea that ought to be considered is getting rid of the stupid merge at Canal Street. Because then Queens Boulevard trains have a third way get to Fulton Street—via 63 Street and 2 Avenue.

• Queens Boulevard express gets divvied up three ways, with a via 63 Street and 2 Avenue to Fulton Street
• World Trade Center terminal station serving both and trains
• Fulton Street serving local and / express

There is no loss of overall TPH from Queens Boulevard express, though the distribution of service is reduced for 6 Avenue and 8 Avenue to make room for 2 Avenue service.

The three merges at Canal Street and Hoyt–Schermerhorn Streets are eliminated.

Both Queens Boulevard and Fulton Street can cover more of Manhattan.

[Reptile]

11 minutes ago, CenSin said:

If the 2 Avenue tracks were to connect to Fulton Street tracks in Brooklyn, then one idea that ought to be considered is getting rid of the stupid merge at Canal Street. Because then Queens Boulevard trains have a third way get to Fulton Street—via 63 Street and 2 Avenue.

• Queens Boulevard express gets divvied up three ways, with a via 63 Street and 2 Avenue to Fulton Street
• World Trade Center terminal station serving both and trains
• Fulton Street serving local and / express

There is no loss of overall TPH from Queens Boulevard express, though the distribution of service is reduced for 6 Avenue and 8 Avenue to make room for 2 Avenue service.

The three merges at Canal Street and Hoyt–Schermerhorn Streets are eliminated.

Both Queens Boulevard and Fulton Street can cover more of Manhattan.

Would the run via 53rd street and QBL local in this? That would also divvy up the local 3 ways

[CenSin]

11 hours ago, Reptile said:

Would the run via 53rd street and QBL local in this? That would also divvy up the local 3 ways

The  is simply the other .

[Wallyhorse]

22 hours ago, CenSin said:

If the 2 Avenue tracks were to connect to Fulton Street tracks in Brooklyn, then one idea that ought to be considered is getting rid of the stupid merge at Canal Street. Because then Queens Boulevard trains have a third way get to Fulton Street—via 63 Street and 2 Avenue.

• Queens Boulevard express gets divvied up three ways, with a via 63 Street and 2 Avenue to Fulton Street
• World Trade Center terminal station serving both and trains
• Fulton Street serving local and / express

There is no loss of overall TPH from Queens Boulevard express, though the distribution of service is reduced for 6 Avenue and 8 Avenue to make room for 2 Avenue service.

The three merges at Canal Street and Hoyt–Schermerhorn Streets are eliminated.

Both Queens Boulevard and Fulton Street can cover more of Manhattan.

This would be a good way to do it, as long as there is a connection from 63rd to the  and then via a new Schermerhorn Street tunnel, as I would do it:

The and the  you proposed would both be the Fulton Street locals to Euclid (perhaps late nights with the extended to Lefferts and the extended to Rockaway Park, eliminating the need for the Rockaway shuttle.

The  and  can serve as the Fulton Express with the to Lefferts (except late nights) and the to Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park (late nights the  to Rockaway Park). 

Another thing I'd be looking at is maybe resurrect the super-express on QBL BUT operating on a lower level of Roosevelt Avenue and 71-Continental (or if there was a way to do it, have that at Roosevelt operate from the never-finished upper level) and that coming into Manhattan on a new tunnel at 79th Street with a stop at 79th/York-1st Avenues and a new lower level of 72nd before joining the somewhere south of 63rd.  

[Chris89292]

Can y’all quit with the fake subway plans, I wanna hear real talk about the second Avenue subway, most of y’all’s ideas are ridiculous anyway, it won’t happen 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Chris89292

[Kamen Rider]

This is how they roll… especially Wally who can’t seem to help himself.

[CenSin]

On 5/24/2023 at 12:35 AM, Kamen Rider said:

This is how they roll… especially Wally who can’t seem to help himself.

If the website could somehow administer electric shocks for such posts, you would still see such posts.

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On 5/23/2023 at 11:16 PM, Chris89292 said:

Can y’all quit with the fake subway plans, I wanna hear real talk about the second Avenue subway, most of y’all’s ideas are ridiculous anyway, it won’t happen 

Discussion plans about how SAS can be best optimized/integrated into the larger system long term are fine imo, but there's a seperate thread for expansion plans and stuff.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

If the debt ceiling limit is hit and causes nationwide economic problems, could it significantly stall the start of SAS Phase II? COVID likely pushed things back a year or two on it's own, and it'd be frustrating because right now they seem so close to actually starting construction.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

Very rough edit of how Phase II could look on the map. Still some issues with PDF editor so some obvious problems here but I did as good as I could with my skillset. I wonder if they'll rename 125th St to Lexington Av/125th when Phase II opens; if the 125th Crosstown is ever built they'd basically have to rename it to differentiate between the 125th Sts. They might do some more re-orginzation of information around the 125th St area when Phase II opens cause here it's getting quite dense.

[Kamen Rider]

They won’t rename 125th, the SAS platform will just have its own name, probably including Harlem stuck on it.

[Vulturious]

7 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

They won’t rename 125th, the SAS platform will just have its own name, probably including Harlem stuck on it.

I was going to say the same thing, they could also easily name it Lexington Av-125 St like other stations stopping at Lexington Av.

[CenSin]

9 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

They won’t rename 125th, the SAS platform will just have its own name, probably including Harlem stuck on it.

Maybe they will think ahead and give it a crosstown friendly name, given that they did entertain the idea of going all the way across 125 Street.

They can pay to replace signs once, or they can pay to replace them twice. (And one more time when the comes around.)