Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[Nitro]

On 8/10/2023 at 7:11 AM, TMC said:

-  to Co-Op City is good, I like this.

 

- Throgs Neck is where I disagree, even long-term. I think 2nd Avenue should run exclusively across 125th Street, with Phase 3 being an entirely separate trunk line along 3rd Avenue, running super-express north of Midtown towards the GWB and New Jersey. The question with Throgs Neck is: Is there a better place to put the train? In this case, I believe both 125th Street and NJ-4 in New Jersey are more compelling than Throgs Neck. The areas served on a Throgs Neck Line are not very dense, and if bus crowding is high, I don’t think it’s because the buses are insufficient as a mode. Density and the opportunity for higher density is much higher in New Jersey along the NJ-4 corridor than the Southeast Bronx as well, so the TOD argument doesn’t work too. 

How are we going to do that if the TA has used up most of its money for BS projects. Then they complain that they are underfunded and everyone joins into the shitfest.

[Nitro]

The SAS was so unnecessary all it causes is even more f**k ups in the entire system and a new subway line that nobody will ride due to it's lack of expansion.

[Mtatransit]

1 hour ago, Nitro said:

Second Avenue should be mostly light rail instead if the costs are so god dam high

And why do you believe the MTA will build a light rail at a reasonable cost as well? 

Mind you it cost 5.5 Billion to build the IBX as a light rail

[Chris89292]

2 hours ago, Nitro said:

The SAS was so unnecessary all it causes is even more f**k ups in the entire system and a new subway line that nobody will ride due to it's lack of expansion.

Honestly I don’t get why the MTA is cutting this project in 4 phases, why not complete everything already, or at least making phase 1 the first half of the project from 63rd street to 125th street, and then phase 2 from 63rd street to Hanover square, they could’ve studied the area a long time ago

Edited August 22, 2023 by Chris89292

[Nitro]

2 hours ago, Chris89292 said:

Honestly I don’t get why the MTA is cutting this project in 4 phases, why not complete everything already, or at least making phase 1 the first half of the project from 63rd street to 125th street, and then phase 2 from 63rd street to Hanover square, they could’ve studied the area a long time ago

I had a totally original idea to extend the SAS it's only flaw is that it parallels the Fulton Street Line by using the Bergen Street Corridor by being mostly underground and in Queens elevated due to the Water Tables near JFK Airport.

[Nitro]

3 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

And why do you believe the MTA will build a light rail at a reasonable cost as well? 

Mind you it cost 5.5 Billion to build the IBX as a light rail

Light Rail is mostly a scam. It should only be used on lightly dense corridors, (The SBK Railway comes to mind)

3 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

And why do you believe the MTA will build a light rail at a reasonable cost as well? 

Mind you it cost 5.5 Billion to build the IBX as a light rail

FRA mostly prohibits light rail from using railroad corridors, The same with subway cars which I already know since the PATH is separated from New Jersey Trains & Amtrak from Harrison to Newark. Also Light Rail is required to share a separate ROW away from Subway/Commuter Trains & any other vehicles.

[Vulturious]

9 minutes ago, Nitro said:

I had a totally original idea to extend the SAS it's only flaw is that it parallels the Fulton Street Line by using the Bergen Street Corridor by being mostly underground and in Queens elevated due to the Water Tables near JFK Airport.

Bro, what? Bergen St is a narrow ass corridor to use, you don't need another line running parallel to Fulton St at all. You already have lines like Eastern Parkway that is parallel to half of Fulton along with Jamaica Av being the other half (this bit ain't a great alternative so I'll give you that). Overall, it is just a complete waste of time to extend and create a new line from the SAS running along side Fulton rather than as a local line to boost service, especially along a very narrow corridor, a one way street.

How exactly would this extension work once around Eastern Parkway or East New York Av?

[Nitro]

2 hours ago, Chris89292 said:

Honestly I don’t get why the MTA is cutting this project in 4 phases, why not complete everything already, or at least making phase 1 the first half of the project from 63rd street to 125th street, and then phase 2 from 63rd street to Hanover square, they could’ve studied the area a long time ago

Corruption is one factor as to why the costs are high including the mezzanines and elevators. Instead of going the simplified way. The MTA wanted to cut corners for their prices of these four stations. Now all of them look like shit anyways and Lexington Avenue/63rd Street looked much better than it's shitty overhaul that makes it another cramped, dirty & generic modern looking station in the New York City Subway. I mean how many people use that station compared to Lexington Avenue/53rd Street. 1/3rd of those people unload/xfer at that Lex Ave-63rd compared to Lexington Avenue-53rd Street which alot of them demand express service to this day.

[Nitro]

4 minutes ago, Vulturious said:

Bro, what? Bergen St is a narrow ass corridor to use, you don't need another line running parallel to Fulton St at all. You already have lines like Eastern Parkway that is parallel to half of Fulton along with Jamaica Av being the other half (this bit ain't a great alternative so I'll give you that). Overall, it is just a complete waste of time to extend and create a new line from the SAS running along side Fulton rather than as a local line to boost service, especially along a very narrow corridor, a one way street.

How exactly would this extension work once around Eastern Parkway or East New York Av?

That was my idea along time ago. Things change.

[Nitro]

5 minutes ago, Vulturious said:

Bro, what? Bergen St is a narrow ass corridor to use, you don't need another line running parallel to Fulton St at all. You already have lines like Eastern Parkway that is parallel to half of Fulton along with Jamaica Av being the other half (this bit ain't a great alternative so I'll give you that). Overall, it is just a complete waste of time to extend and create a new line from the SAS running along side Fulton rather than as a local line to boost service, especially along a very narrow corridor, a one way street.

How exactly would this extension work once around Eastern Parkway or East New York Av?

Oh I have an answer to that extend the 4 Train to Broadway Junction that is the more realistic idea compared to a fantasy Utica extension.

[Vulturious]

1 hour ago, Nitro said:

Oh I have an answer to that extend the 4 Train to Broadway Junction that is the more realistic idea compared to a fantasy Utica extension.

See, the thing about that extension is that while I wouldn't mind an extension towards Broadway Junction, it's still better to create a Utica Av subway either by extension or through a new line entirely which would be the SAS if ever possible. South of Eastern Parkway and east of Nostrand Av is a transit desert much like huge areas in Queens and portions of the Bronx. 

Also, I believe you misinterpreted my question. I meant how are you planning on extending this Bergen St line past Eastern Parkway or East New York Av where the street ends especially if it's going to Queens?

[Nitro]

13 minutes ago, Vulturious said:

See, the thing about that extension is that while I wouldn't mind an extension towards Broadway Junction, it's still better to create a Utica Av subway either by extension or through a new line entirely which would be the SAS if ever possible. South of Eastern Parkway and east of Nostrand Av is a transit desert much like huge areas in Queens and portions of the Bronx. 

Also, I believe you misinterpreted my question. I meant how are you planning on extending this Bergen St line past Eastern Parkway or East New York Av where the street ends especially if it's going to Queens?

I originally intended it to go via Bergen Street it would turn southeast on Liberty Avenue then using a possible viaduct on 101st Avenue splitting the H into two branches Rockaway Blvd Branch and a Jamaica Branch later on I scrapped those ideas because they parallel the  &  Trains

[Chris89292]

2 hours ago, Nitro said:

Corruption is one factor as to why the costs are high including the mezzanines and elevators. Instead of going the simplified way. The MTA wanted to cut corners for their prices of these four stations. Now all of them look like shit anyways and Lexington Avenue/63rd Street looked much better than it's shitty overhaul that makes it another cramped, dirty & generic modern looking station in the New York City Subway. I mean how many people use that station compared to Lexington Avenue/53rd Street. 1/3rd of those people unload/xfer at that Lex Ave-63rd compared to Lexington Avenue-53rd Street which alot of them demand express service to this day.

Nah I just think the design is just not it, why build it deep down below ground, why can’t it be like other subway lines that were build in cut cover method, and elevators can be installed later

[Nitro]

1 minute ago, Chris89292 said:

Nah I just think the design is just not it, why build it deep down below ground, why can’t it be like other subway lines that were build in cut cover method, and elevators can be installed later

That's exactly what I was stating cut and cover with an expanded platform and mezzanines like 179th Street or Parsons Blvd on the  or Hoyt–Schermerhorn Streets on the  &  Trains

[Nitro]

11 hours ago, Chris89292 said:

Nah I just think the design is just not it, why build it deep down below ground, why can’t it be like other subway lines that were build in cut cover method, and elevators can be installed later

Corruption plays a huge factor thanks to politics. This is why projects in this city end up being placed on hold or stalled. In Europe, China, Japan, and South Korea rail projects are completed with a quarter to half of the cost of these inflated projects and take less than 10-20 years to complete.

[Nitro]

14 hours ago, Vulturious said:

See, the thing about that extension is that while I wouldn't mind an extension towards Broadway Junction, it's still better to create a Utica Av subway either by extension or through a new line entirely which would be the SAS if ever possible. South of Eastern Parkway and east of Nostrand Av is a transit desert much like huge areas in Queens and portions of the Bronx. 

Also, I believe you misinterpreted my question. I meant how are you planning on extending this Bergen St line past Eastern Parkway or East New York Av where the street ends especially if it's going to Queens?

Utica is a dumb option it deprives the line of transfers, The only transfers you'll get is the IBX and the B82. The environmental reports even proved that this shit isn't economically feasible due to potential flooding if they were constructing the line. Thank god it got cancelled. The least Utica can get is LRT like Streetcars to replace the buses if the neighborhoods & the city approved of this. Which is not going to fly by NIMBYs btw. The realistic approach is Broadway Junction via Eastern Parkway since the tail tracks are already there for a possible expansion of the IRT.

[Vulturious]

2 hours ago, Nitro said:

Utica is a dumb option it deprives the line of transfers, The only transfers you'll get is the IBX and the B82. The environmental reports even proved that this shit isn't economically feasible due to potential flooding if they were constructing the line. Thank god it got cancelled. The least Utica can get is LRT like Streetcars to replace the buses if the neighborhoods & the city approved of this. Which is not going to fly by NIMBYs btw. The realistic approach is Broadway Junction via Eastern Parkway since the tail tracks are already there for a possible expansion of the IRT.

The environmental or feasibility reports can end up being bullshit. Look no further than the Rockaway Beach Branch feasibility study, that thing had an inflated price (I cannot stress that enough), you can read about it here. You said it yourself in an earlier comment, "corruption plays a huge factor thanks to politics." Politics plays a huge part in this, they can easily go ahead and not want to deal with the construction of something and there are more factors outside of just politics. Again, look no further than the Second Av Subway.

And the point of the Utica Av subway isn't for transfers, you literally missed my point about giving transit access to an area that is a desert or deprived of rapid transit. Imagine if the Nostrand Av branch was never built for example and there was a feasibility study and environmental study of it with basically the same situation that Utica has. You would basically be saying the same exact thing about it. Who cares if the only transfers it has is the IBX (if that ever comes to fruition) and the B82, the line is already connected to major areas of NYC if from Eastern Parkway that being Downtown Brooklyn, Downtown Manhattan, and Midtown Manhattan with just one transfer over to the  or  either at Crown Heights or Franklin Av station from the  to gain access to the west side of Manhattan instead of the east. 

I'm not trying to take away value from a Broadway Junction extension, unfortunately, Utica Av needs a subway line sooner or later compared to adding another transfer. Also this is getting off topic so I'm just going to leave it here.

[Nitro]

18 minutes ago, Vulturious said:

The environmental or feasibility reports can end up being bullshit. Look no further than the Rockaway Beach Branch feasibility study, that thing had an inflated price (I cannot stress that enough), you can read about it here. You said it yourself in an earlier comment, "corruption plays a huge factor thanks to politics." Politics plays a huge part in this, they can easily go ahead and not want to deal with the construction of something and there are more factors outside of just politics. Again, look no further than the Second Av Subway.

And the point of the Utica Av subway isn't for transfers, you literally missed my point about giving transit access to an area that is a desert or deprived of rapid transit. Imagine if the Nostrand Av branch was never built for example and there was a feasibility study and environmental study of it with basically the same situation that Utica has. You would basically be saying the same exact thing about it. Who cares if the only transfers it has is the IBX (if that ever comes to fruition) and the B82, the line is already connected to major areas of NYC if from Eastern Parkway that being Downtown Brooklyn, Downtown Manhattan, and Midtown Manhattan with just one transfer over to the  or  either at Crown Heights or Franklin Av station from the  to gain access to the west side of Manhattan instead of the east. 

I'm not trying to take away value from a Broadway Junction extension, unfortunately, Utica Av needs a subway line sooner or later compared to adding another transfer. Also this is getting off topic so I'm just going to leave it here.

Do you not see the logistics that prevent a Utica Avenue subway from being built. In my fantasy ideas this would happen but no. I'm a realist, Most feasibility reports are bullshit like what you just said with the RBB and the SAS and I agree with. On the other hand Utica's logistics would lead to an inflated price including the NIMBYs who don't want to see any subway service in their neighborhood. Nostrand Avenue isn't surrounded by any swamps or lakes so this case doesn’t even apply to them. The least you can give Utica Avenue is light rail and even that comes with its expenses too. Brownsville is also another transit desert too. Should we just cut them out of the equation and build a line that parallels Nostrand & Flatbush Avenue? Sure we should do that. Even if Utica was feasible it would just be treated like another dinky shuttle anyway.

Another thing is the water levels prevent the Utica Avenue Subway from being constructed and even if you used eminent domain to build an elevated structure. NIMBYs aren't going to appreciate that anyways. I bet we should also ignore the water level since that won't matter if it ends up flooding the tunnels.

[Nitro]

39 minutes ago, Vulturious said:

The environmental or feasibility reports can end up being bullshit. Look no further than the Rockaway Beach Branch feasibility study, that thing had an inflated price (I cannot stress that enough), you can read about it here. You said it yourself in an earlier comment, "corruption plays a huge factor thanks to politics." Politics plays a huge part in this, they can easily go ahead and not want to deal with the construction of something and there are more factors outside of just politics. Again, look no further than the Second Av Subway.

And the point of the Utica Av subway isn't for transfers, you literally missed my point about giving transit access to an area that is a desert or deprived of rapid transit. Imagine if the Nostrand Av branch was never built for example and there was a feasibility study and environmental study of it with basically the same situation that Utica has. You would basically be saying the same exact thing about it. Who cares if the only transfers it has is the IBX (if that ever comes to fruition) and the B82, the line is already connected to major areas of NYC if from Eastern Parkway that being Downtown Brooklyn, Downtown Manhattan, and Midtown Manhattan with just one transfer over to the  or  either at Crown Heights or Franklin Av station from the  to gain access to the west side of Manhattan instead of the east. 

I'm not trying to take away value from a Broadway Junction extension, unfortunately, Utica Av needs a subway line sooner or later compared to adding another transfer. Also this is getting off topic so I'm just going to leave it here.

I don't trust any of these environmental and feasibility reports anyway. Most if not all they say are full of shit.

[Vulturious]

2 hours ago, Nitro said:

Do you not see the logistics that prevent a Utica Avenue subway from being built. In my fantasy ideas this would happen but no. I'm a realist, Most feasibility reports are bullshit like what you just said with the RBB and the SAS and I agree with. On the other hand Utica's logistics would lead to an inflated price including the NIMBYs who don't want to see any subway service in their neighborhood. Nostrand Avenue isn't surrounded by any swamps or lakes so this case doesn’t even apply to them. The least you can give Utica Avenue is light rail and even that comes with its expenses too. Brownsville is also another transit desert too. Should we just cut them out of the equation and build a line that parallels Nostrand & Flatbush Avenue? Sure we should do that. Even if Utica was feasible it would just be treated like another dinky shuttle anyway.

Another thing is the water levels prevent the Utica Avenue Subway from being constructed and even if you used eminent domain to build an elevated structure. NIMBYs aren't going to appreciate that anyways. I bet we should also ignore the water level since that won't matter if it ends up flooding the tunnels.

Brownsville has rapid transit, what're you talking about??? The  practically runs through the middle of that area along with the  to the side of it. Are you looking at the same map as I am? That's like saying Bay Ridge is a transit desert, although in fairness the  doesn't run often anyway, but that doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. Regardless, this point is completely flawed, even just outside the area north of Brownsville, you got Broadway Junction station serving the  and surrounding stations including the LIRR Atlantic Branch. 

On the point that Utica is surrounded by swamps, lakes, and an issue with water level, there are ways to get around it. You said it yourself: 

2 hours ago, Nitro said:

I don't trust any of these environmental and feasibility reports anyway. Most if not all they say are full of shit.

I hate having to focus on other systems not the NYCT sometimes, but other systems have been able to get some shit done at a reasonable price which unfortunately isn't something NY has the luxury of because of all the corruptness running around not just in the MTA, but the city, the state, and anyone else remotely involved in this type of stuff. Along with NIMBY's, they suck as well, at some point you gotta just ignore them because it's not going to make things better.

Like I said, off topic so I'm stopping here. By the way, you don't need to comment on the same post more than once.

[Nitro]

1 hour ago, Vulturious said:

Brownsville has rapid transit, what're you talking about??? The  practically runs through the middle of that area along with the  to the side of it. Are you looking at the same map as I am? That's like saying Bay Ridge is a transit desert, although in fairness the  doesn't run often anyway, but that doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. Regardless, this point is completely flawed, even just outside the area north of Brownsville, you got Broadway Junction station serving the  and surrounding stations including the LIRR Atlantic Branch. 

On the point that Utica is surrounded by swamps, lakes, and an issue with water level, there are ways to get around it. You said it yourself: 

I hate having to focus on other systems not the NYCT sometimes, but other systems have been able to get some shit done at a reasonable price which unfortunately isn't something NY has the luxury of because of all the corruptness running around not just in the MTA, but the city, the state, and anyone else remotely involved in this type of stuff. Along with NIMBY's, they suck as well, at some point you gotta just ignore them because it's not going to make things better.

Like I said, off topic so I'm stopping here. By the way, you don't need to comment on the same post more than once.

Well's since it's infeasible to build a Utica Avenue Subway even with half the cost which I highly doubt the amount of space that Utica has could fit an elevated structure and by my  train extension. Brownsville is at least partially covered by transit than giving them a bus route that does nothing.

1 hour ago, Vulturious said:

I hate having to focus on other systems not the NYCT sometimes, but other systems have been able to get some shit done at a reasonable price which unfortunately isn't something NY has the luxury of because of all the corruptness running around not just in the MTA, but the city, the state, and anyone else remotely involved in this type of stuff. Along with NIMBY's, they suck as well, at some point you gotta just ignore them because it's not going to make things better.

Like I said, off topic so I'm stopping here. By the way, you don't need to comment on the same post more than once.

Europe, China, Japan, & South Korea gets shit done faster than the MTA themselves. Sadly the MTA devolved into the Money Taking Corruption Authority and with corruption running around New York not to mention the Port Authority. This is why these projects are over inflated. If Utica was infeasible which that has been proven already. Then they should have extending the to Broadway Junction & providing a cross borough transit line throughout Brooklyn, Queens, & The Bronx. But no the MTA went with Hochul's bullshit projects that everyone had to choose either the SAS Phase 3 or Grand Central Access. Grand Central Madison has barely seen any major ridership for the past 7 months. Most people are heading to Penn Station. The others that are heading to Wall Street use the Atlantic Terminal which has seen more ridership than the MTA claims it has with their false statistics.

[Nitro]

extended to be sure

[Nitro]

If you all don't know where I got the idea from. You can check Reddit 

 

[TMC]

On 8/22/2023 at 1:42 PM, Nitro said:

How are we going to do that if the TA has used up most of its money for BS projects. Then they complain that they are underfunded and everyone joins into the shitfest.

They have money...

[slantfan4281]

Is 2029 still the estimated date for finishing Phase 2?