Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[Wallyhorse]

3 hours ago, slantfan4281 said:

I doubt they'll consider tail tracks for the ... the only terminal improvements I could see them doing is reconfiguring Atlantic to 3 or 4 tracks with a center track to terminate trains if needed, and that only works if the OOS platform is still usable.

For the  they'll just send whatever they can't fit into JC to 179th. But an extension via the LIRR ROW like planned in the Program for Action would be nice.

As I would do it, I would rebuild the platforms taken out of service on the at Atlantic as well as the tracks that served Snediker Avenue (there was enough infrastructure level in place that such CAN be rebuilt).   This also would allow for a potential revival of what used to be  service to Rockaway Parkway on the  for example.  

[slantfan4281]

5 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

As I would do it, I would rebuild the platforms taken out of service on the at Atlantic as well as the tracks that served Snediker Avenue (there was enough infrastructure level in place that such CAN be rebuilt).   This also would allow for a potential revival of what used to be  service to Rockaway Parkway on the  for example.  

Reconfiguring the station to allow for short-turns has a low but non-zero chance or happening. Canarsie-Nassau service is not happening since the transfer at Broadway Junction is not difficult and it would unnecessarily handicap the  where it is busiest

[CenSin]

On 10/19/2023 at 8:33 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

Next obvious example is entering Wallyhorse territory. Let's say there's a blockage n/b at Whitehall St. The obvious move (to me at least) to get the riders to Manhattan and then to turn those trains back to Brooklyn would be to run them north to Chambers, discharge , and relay them back southward. Problem is that I heard those relay tracks and assorted switches and signals are gone. Bean counters said it saves money.

They probably figured such a use case was too narrow.

• Trains that haven’t entered the East River tunnel would turn in Brooklyn. 🖕 “Transfer to the for Fi-Di, folks.”
• For the rest of ‘em, they figured running trains over the bridge whether to Broadway or 6 Avenue provided adequate coverage.
• The only people screwed are those already in the East River tunnel. Can’t spare a dime for those.

 

On the other hand, for the longest time, the MTA also maintained a lot of redundant switches along some lines. Take the prior to all the switch reconfiguration this past year. It had:

• For northbound trains stretching from Avenue U to Ditmas Avenue, the only 3 switches between the express and local tracks were all for switching express trains to local. Weekend service changes were fun when they had work done around Ditmas Avenue northbound—express all the way from Avenue X to Smith–9 Streets if not all the way to Jay Street–MetroTech.
• Now the situation is partially reversed. They removed a switch which once existed going southbound towards 18 Avenue. Where trains were once able to switch to the local track from the express track after bypassing Ditmas Avenue, now they can’t do that until Kings Highway. Any construction on the southbound Ditmas Avenue track makes all southbound trains express from at least Smith–9 Streets to Kings Highway. I’m not complaining though.

[Wallyhorse]

10 hours ago, slantfan4281 said:

Reconfiguring the station to allow for short-turns has a low but non-zero chance or happening. Canarsie-Nassau service is not happening since the transfer at Broadway Junction is not difficult and it would unnecessarily handicap the  where it is busiest

I would never expect such to actually be used except for some weekend G.O.'s

If there was a revival of the old  to Canarsie (as another letter), as I would do it, those trains would go to Canarsie while the would be cut back to Atlantic Avenue to better serve the busiest part of the line with in most cases a cross-platform transfer at Atlantic Avenue between the two.  The Snediker platform would mainly be for storage and a few early morning trains but would be done where it could be used in service if necessary. 

[zacster]

11 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

I would never expect such to actually be used except for some weekend G.O.'s

If there was a revival of the old  to Canarsie (as another letter), as I would do it, those trains would go to Canarsie while the would be cut back to Atlantic Avenue to better serve the busiest part of the line with in most cases a cross-platform transfer at Atlantic Avenue between the two.  The Snediker platform would mainly be for storage and a few early morning trains but would be done where it could be used in service if necessary. 

If you look at the satellite view of Broadway Junction to Atlantic Ave you can see a wide platform of elevated structure to feed both Van Sinderen and Snediker, but you would never need Snediker anymore because it was built with the idea of 3 lines feeding in, Fulton, Bway Bkln, and 14th St, and two coming out, Canarsie and Fulton/Pitkin.  Since Fulton and Pitkin were torn down a long time ago it meant at least two tracks were no longer needed through the complex, which was overbuilt to begin with.  They tore down the two tracks over the entirely separate Snediker part, and rerouted the Canarsie NB track over Van Sinderen.  It looks from the satellite view that the NB track then cuts diagonally across the structure back to where the Snediker tracks were and feeds both the 14th St line and Bway, and also a yard lead.  This cuts off any access to the old Snediker/Atlantic Ave station.

Trains coming from Broadway going to Atlantic have a structure that merges with the 14th St tracks.  Underneath it are the leads to Fulton St. at a different level.  And this merged track goes to the westernmost track at Atlantic on the westernmost platform.  The next track over is now the Northbound track from Canarsie which similarly splits with a branch off to Broadway with a wide turn that goes over the Jamaica tracks.  There is no way to configure this so that Broadway trains and 14th St trains don't interfere with each other.  The easternmost platform over Van Sinderen is no longer used, nor is the dead end over Snediker where the platform was cut. 

Bottom line is that to do this would be an operational nightmare.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6773246,-73.9037944,706m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

 

[Wallyhorse]

I did look at that on satellite:

More realistically, if that was rebuilt,  The main four-track section would return to being such while the Snediker Avenue portion would likely be built to be stub tracks for usually storage but can in a pinch (or during G.O.'s) be used as terminal tracks.  

[zacster]

You seem to be missing the point about the tracks from Broadway and 14th ST merging before they get to Atlantic Ave on a structure high above what is now an abandoned structure.  And they cut the Snediker side because the extra capacity hadn't been needed for 50 YEARS!  If they had needed it for storage they'd have kept it, but they didn't it nor keep it.

[CenSin]

1 hour ago, zacster said:

You seem to be missing the point

It’s a sure bet every single time.

[BreeddekalbL]

Here it comes

https://www.amny.com/transit/feds-award-infrastructure-grant-second-avenue-subway-extension/

 

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

5 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Here it comes

https://www.amny.com/transit/feds-award-infrastructure-grant-second-avenue-subway-extension/

 

Oh wow, this is quite a generous grant; really makes me wonder would SAS Phase II be dead if the infrastructure bill wasn't passed? A few months ago, the fed said they'd only give like 500million, so this is quite a positive update. I really feel confident SAS Phase II is going to be completed within my lifetime!

 

Still you'd hope in an ideal world the subway wouldn't cost this much and more extensions would be on the table, but this is a positive development.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

Conference

Schumer, Hochul, Buttigieg, O' Lieber, and several other political figures just held a press conference/signing ceremony on SAS Phase II right outside Harlem-125 St Metro North station.

Nothing too notable: basic summary is that with the federal contribution of 3.4 billion dollars, the project is officially fully funded and is basically 100% guaranteed to happen. Glad to see Buttigieg acknowledge even though it's an expensive project, it's still really effective on a cost/rider basis compared to many other projects around the Country. Other than that it was mostly politics, with some of them patting each other on the back for other recent/current transit projects and also digs at the Trump administration for contributing to the delay.

[Wallyhorse]

22 hours ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

Conference

Schumer, Hochul, Buttigieg, O' Lieber, and several other political figures just held a press conference/signing ceremony on SAS Phase II right outside Harlem-125 St Metro North station.

Nothing too notable: basic summary is that with the federal contribution of 3.4 billion dollars, the project is officially fully funded and is basically 100% guaranteed to happen. Glad to see Buttigieg acknowledge even though it's an expensive project, it's still really effective on a cost/rider basis compared to many other projects around the Country. Other than that it was mostly politics, with some of them patting each other on the back for other recent/current transit projects and also digs at the Trump administration for contributing to the delay.

Not surprising on the dig.  Trump and his ilk seem to hate ANYTHING the Dems do nowadays.  

This is badly needed.  I still think the is making a mistake not having it connect to the 8th Avenue line at St. Nicholas as such would have benefits beyond any actual use by a line, especially for GO's and emergency situations. 

[Chris89292]

8 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

Not surprising on the dig.  Trump and his ilk seem to hate ANYTHING the Dems do nowadays.  

This is badly needed.  I still think the is making a mistake not having it connect to the 8th Avenue line at St. Nicholas as such would have benefits beyond any actual use by a line, especially for GO's and emergency situations. 

Pretty sure the trump administration was for the second Avenue subway, but the state was against any funds from him, not surprising at all, Andrew cromo is to blame in this case, either way the project would’ve taken years to be built

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

4 hours ago, Chris89292 said:

Pretty sure the trump administration was for the second Avenue subway, but the state was against any funds from him, not surprising at all, Andrew cromo is to blame in this case, either way the project would’ve taken years to be built

I think there's blood on a lot of people's hands here, both D and R. Cuomo essentially gave up on further advancing SAS once Phase I opened. Trump talked a lot about infrastructure investments (including SAS), but was never proactive behind the scenes about trying to get it done, in large part because much of the Republican Party opposed large scale federal infrastructure investments and Trump didn't want to work with Ds (and to a lesser extent vise-versa).

In the bipartisan infrastructure bill which ultimately gave SAS Phase II funding, originally Dems wanted a much larger share of the money for public transit, but they compromised with Rs to get it passed. To be fair though, not sure even if BBB was passed or a larger share was allocated to public transit in the bipartisan infrastructure bill if we'd see any more expansion investment in NYC subway because it seems a large part of our problem is there's not enough willpower in state politics.

[CenSin]

The dysfunctional consequence of election cycles combined with sports team rivalry guarantees it. Pardon the pun, but short-term results and sticking it to the others is always going to trump the long game for maximum public benefit.

Assuming SAS continues getting extended, it will only get extended to where the money and political power are strongest, like a steel wire to a magnet. Manhattanville is gentrifying, and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that there’s talk of a crosstown extension while the Bronx, Midtown Manhattan, and the Lower East Side have waited decades for their el replacement. Once a critical mass of affluent residents builds up and the political representation shifts to match, a 125 Street extension might be more realistic than today.

I’ve been making plans to move to Manhattanville myself, and in doing so noticed how strong the allure of self-interest bends my own opinion. Those who have followed this thread have seen arguments I made years ago for giving SAS a straight shot to the Bronx instead of diverting it parallel to 125 Street where it will forever siphon off capacity from any future Bronx extension. But now I’m not so sure that I could be a purely rational champion for the extension that the Bronx deserves. When tempted with the idea that one can have both east and west side access right at his own doorsteps, the “all for me, none for thee” mentality rears its head, and I’m not sure I can avoid looking the other way as a mostly needless extension robs my neighbors of a much needed one.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

On 11/27/2023 at 9:41 PM, CenSin said:

The dysfunctional consequence of election cycles combined with sports team rivalry guarantees it. Pardon the pun, but short-term results and sticking it to the others is always going to trump the long game for maximum public benefit.

Assuming SAS continues getting extended, it will only get extended to where the money and political power are strongest, like a steel wire to a magnet. Manhattanville is gentrifying, and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that there’s talk of a crosstown extension while the Bronx, Midtown Manhattan, and the Lower East Side have waited decades for their el replacement. Once a critical mass of affluent residents builds up and the political representation shifts to match, a 125 Street extension might be more realistic than today.

I’ve been making plans to move to Manhattanville myself, and in doing so noticed how strong the allure of self-interest bends my own opinion. Those who have followed this thread have seen arguments I made years ago for giving SAS a straight shot to the Bronx instead of diverting it parallel to 125 Street where it will forever siphon off capacity from any future Bronx extension. But now I’m not so sure that I could be a purely rational champion for the extension that the Bronx deserves. When tempted with the idea that one can have both east and west side access right at his own doorsteps, the “all for me, none for thee” mentality rears its head, and I’m not sure I can avoid looking the other way as a mostly needless extension robs my neighbors of a much needed one.

Honestly, this is the argument that SAS should've been built with 4 tracks (or at least clear provisions for 4 tracks) from the start. The current proposal forces an awkward reverse branch as is between the  and , and then as you state you can't have both a full capacity Bronx branch and 125 St branch. The current plan also has the downstream affect of locking in the terrible  train crossover if/when the  begins operations.

To be fair though, I don't think a Crosstown or a Bronx branch would ever warrant the ridership for anything close to 30tph so even in a hypothetical world where both a Bronx and Crosstown branch rebuilt, the line would probably operate fine. It just forces more interlining.

I really wish this city could think big again when it comes to public infrastructure. The best way to do this in the US would be to lump a bunch of subway projects together into one big project that is politically marketable, similar to the "Grand Paris Express" in Paris or sort of like what Biden's infrastructure bill did at a national level.

[Vulturious]

31 minutes ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

Honestly, this is the argument that SAS should've been built with 4 tracks (or at least clear provisions for 4 tracks) from the start. The current proposal forces an awkward reverse branch as is between the  and , and then as you state you can't have both a full capacity Bronx branch and 125 St branch. The current plan also has the downstream affect of locking in the terrible  train crossover if/when the  begins operations.

To be fair though, I don't think a Crosstown or a Bronx branch would ever warrant the ridership for anything close to 30tph so even in a hypothetical world where both a Bronx and Crosstown branch rebuilt, the line would probably operate fine. It just forces more interlining.

I really wish this city could think big again when it comes to public infrastructure. The best way to do this in the US would be to lump a bunch of subway projects together into one big project that is politically marketable, similar to the "Grand Paris Express" in Paris or sort of like what Biden's infrastructure bill did at a national level.

The problem with a giant subway project of all different kinds of subway projects lumped in is that investors, politics, and a bunch of other factors play a big role in this type of stuff. Regardless of whether or not such giant project makes a very huge return investment, it's not something in the interest of those that have such a big contribution. Essentially, it's just a giant pipedream all lumped together that would eventually lead back to what we're currently dealing with today, anyway.

[CenSin]

1 hour ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

you can't have both a full capacity Bronx branch and 125 St branch. The current plan also has the downstream affect of locking in the terrible  train crossover if/when the  begins operations.

To be fair though, I don't think a Crosstown or a Bronx branch would ever warrant the ridership for anything close to 30tph so even in a hypothetical world where both a Bronx and Crosstown branch rebuilt, the line would probably operate fine. It just forces more interlining.

The problem is bigger. The 125 Street branch essentially becomes the alternative to a Bronx extension. The reason is simple: Phase 2 will connect to all three branches of the Lexington Avenue line, spanning a wide swath of Bronx. That removes the urgency to actually extend the line north. The 125 Street extension would seal the deal since it would add the  connections, tying the knots with the remainder of the Bronx branches. With the 125 Street extension done, the politicians can then pat themselves on the back for an unsatisfactorily satisfied transit need.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

19 minutes ago, CenSin said:

The problem is bigger. The 125 Street branch essentially becomes the alternative to a Bronx extension. The reason is simple: Phase 2 will connect to all three branches of the Lexington Avenue line, spanning a wide swath of Bronx. That removes the urgency to actually extend the line north. The 125 Street extension would seal the deal since it would add the  connections, tying the knots with the remainder of the Bronx branches. With the 125 Street extension done, the politicians can then pat themselves on the back for an unsatisfactorily satisfied transit need.

A large part of SAS is to relieve overcrowding on the Lexington Avenue Subway. While Phase I and II will do that, long term if NYC continues to grow, the  will still suffer from overcrowding because they basically serve a large swath of the Bronx on their own. Sure the  runs on White Plains Road, but  is clearly the favored service on weekdays. In the long run (like 50-60 years), the city will still be forced to do something to solve overcrowding from the Bronx branches. 

Honestly if growth continues as is (big if), there are a lot of subway lines that are going to have capacity issues like  and . And if the city sees subway capacity constraints as being a limiting factor for growth, they'll likely be more willing to persue projects.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

1 hour ago, Vulturious said:

The problem with a giant subway project of all different kinds of subway projects lumped in is that investors, politics, and a bunch of other factors play a big role in this type of stuff. Regardless of whether or not such giant project makes a very huge return investment, it's not something in the interest of those that have such a big contribution. Essentially, it's just a giant pipedream all lumped together that would eventually lead back to what we're currently dealing with today, anyway.

Yes, and I could imagine if political actors try to get too involved in these projects, they may end up just making things worse (i.e. adding extra branches onto already constrained lines). I feel like there'd have to be a larger shift in America towards Government really only being seen as a money approver, and letting agencies and those who know best do their job in peace.

[CenSin]

On 12/13/2023 at 11:49 PM, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

In the long run (like 50-60 years), the city will still be forced to do something to solve overcrowding from the Bronx branches.

lol: “long run” and “city” 😂

Has any entity after the separate IRT, BMT, and IND built their infrastructure with future needs in mind?

The same thing’s been playing out for the past half-dozen decades: less money, less infrastructure. The trunk that was supposed to be SAS has been pared down to a twig, all while building the stations for more capacity than any which preceded it—the capacity which’ll drop to zero the moment a train becomes stuck anywhere along the double-tracked trunk. And anything they build in the future will be bolted on to this bare-minimum foundation.

[Lawrence St]

Kinda shocked no ones brought this up;

Earlier, the gov announced a re-direction of the future of SAS, instead of doing phase 3 to extend the SAS across 125th St as a new crosstown line to Broadway. There will be 3 new stops added.

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-hochul-announces-plans-expand-major-transit-projects-and-improve-roadway-safety

[Vulturious]

39 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Kinda shocked no ones brought this up;

Earlier, the gov announced a re-direction of the future of SAS, instead of doing phase 3 to extend the SAS across 125th St as a new crosstown line to Broadway. There will be 3 new stops added.

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-hochul-announces-plans-expand-major-transit-projects-and-improve-roadway-safety

I brought it up in random topic thread because it also included other stuff like the IBX going into engineering process and some other stuff, but it got buried.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

3 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Kinda shocked no ones brought this up;

Earlier, the gov announced a re-direction of the future of SAS, instead of doing phase 3 to extend the SAS across 125th St as a new crosstown line to Broadway. There will be 3 new stops added.

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-hochul-announces-plans-expand-major-transit-projects-and-improve-roadway-safety

From what I read, Hochul seemed to imply she wanted to do the Crosstown as a continuation of Phase II, which would be great, though ofc who knows what things will look like in 8-10 years; good chance it gets pushed off a bit like SAS Phase II.

I will say though no real mention of Phase III of SAS - at this point crosstown extension seems like the favorite after Phase II, and while I'd love for both, I agree that Crosstown is probably more needed. I honestly think both MTA and politicians really want to avoid Phase III as much as possible because it's price tag would be absolutely insane - 6 stations in midtown Manhattan, multiple potential transfers, ect. 

I hope MTA will seriously consider multiple variants of the crosstown including one that ends at 8th Avenue, one that goes all the way to connect with the , and one that tries to tie into 8th Avenue/CPW.

[imagineverything]

15 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Kinda shocked no ones brought this up;

Earlier, the gov announced a re-direction of the future of SAS, instead of doing phase 3 to extend the SAS across 125th St as a new crosstown line to Broadway. There will be 3 new stops added.

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-hochul-announces-plans-expand-major-transit-projects-and-improve-roadway-safety

There is a huge opportunity to design this at a depth where it can continue under the Hudson to NJ.

Any geology experts here? What are the soil conditions and bathymetry like between 125th/Broadway and Edgewater NJ Tunnel Portal (388 Old River Rd, Edgewater, NJ 07020)? What depth would the Broadway station need to be in order to continue west to NJ?

Edited January 10 by imagineverything