MTA Long Range Planning

[Turbo19]

Too many of the hoity toity Riverdale types. Surely she would've thrown a fit.  The B/O was trying to get her to move along but it was like talking to a wall.  The real kicker was I think she gave the chick in the first seat $5.00 and then took her Metrocard and dipped it for $6.00.  That would've been a big no-no for me.  

What a biotch. Even if she was hot, that shit don't fly.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What a biotch. Even if she was hot, that shit don't fly.

Hot?? Type middle aged Riverdale woman.  

[Turbo19]

Hot?? Type middle aged Riverdale woman.

Damn, you killed my jive.

 

Anyway, that would just be adding insult to injury then. I'm going to have nightmares.

[bobtehpanda]

To be honest, the website is not good for searching past budget or planning documents, but admittedly the majority of the people visiting the site are not using it for that.

 

Keep in mind that while New York is not as good at presenting information as, say, TfL or LA Metro, we're still doing better than a lot of other places. Hong Kong is a city with 90%+ transit mode share and has been a major urban center for the past century, but still does not publish bus maps or bus schedules. Individual route maps exist, but are only diagrammatic. So it could be a lot worse.

 

Also, Google Maps is infinitely better than Transit Planner, which should almost never be used (according to Trip Planner, my house doesn't exist )

[qjtransitmaster]

To be honest, the website is not good for searching past budget or planning documents, but admittedly the majority of the people visiting the site are not using it for that.

 

Keep in mind that while New York is not as good at presenting information as, say, TfL or LA Metro, we're still doing better than a lot of other places. Hong Kong is a city with 90%+ transit mode share and has been a major urban center for the past century, but still does not publish bus maps or bus schedules. Individual route maps exist, but are only diagrammatic. So it could be a lot worse.

 

Also, Google Maps is infinitely better than Transit Planner, which should almost never be used (according to Trip Planner, my house doesn't exist )

WHAT NO MAPS not even in app form?

[BrooklynBus]

Oh give me a break with the criticizing.  You act like it's beyond complicated for someone to go onto the website, look at a map and plan out their commute.  I've used the Planner a few times for areas I wasn't familiar with and though I went with other options, the planner's set up wasn't exactly that terrible either.  I'm not going to sit here and say that the can't improve, but let's put some responsibility on the commuters as well. You have a lot of incompetent and lazy commuters out here as well, who, no matter how the improved their website, would still hold everyone up with idle BS.  I had a lady yesterday get on the BxM2 at my stop.  I got to the stop a good 10 minutes prior and she was there before me, yet she didn't even try to locate a place to get a Metrocard. Instead she got on and started asking everyone if they had a Metrocard, holding the entire bus up since no one could get past with her blocking the aisle.

 

I criticized the MTA website mainly for finding historical information, certainly not the primary need by its customers. I also stated the trip planner is not very good. I said nothing about it being beyond complicated for someone to plan his route.

 

And you don't criticize? New Yorkers are much more impatient and get much more upset by people like the lady you cited on the bus than people do in other cities. I remember my lecture in Hawaii with the hotel guide telling us it is not like New York. People are much more relaxed and tend take their time and are not always in a hurry. He said when someone tells you that something is coming "right away" that means you should expect to wait 20 minutes for it. That would never fly here.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I criticized the MTA website mainly for finding historical information, certainly not the primary need by its customers. I also stated the trip planner is not very good. I said nothing about it being beyond complicated for someone to plan his route.

 

And you don't criticize? New Yorkers are much more impatient and get much more upset by people like the lady you cited on the bus than people do in other cities. I remember my lecture in Hawaii with the hotel guide telling us it is not like New York. People are much more relaxed and tend take their time and are not always in a hurry. He said when someone tells you that something is coming "right away" that means you should expect to wait 20 minutes for it. That would never fly here.

You didn't say it but you certainly implied it.  I criticize like everyone else of course.

 

Last night was a perfect example of terrible information.  Their website said that the Brazilian Parade would be over around 20:00.  The bus stop said at 21:00 with "approximate" being stressed.  A couple of hours later, surely we thought service would be normal again for the BxM2.  We were wrong. I walked to 41st and 6th and waited there with a bunch of other people thinking that was a safe stop.  Then a dispatcher came by and explained that the buses were still being detoured via 8th Avenue, which we thought was absurd seeing the M5 and M7 were running down to 42nd and then turning there.  After we made such a stink about how the parade had been over for several hours, he agreed to have the bus stop at 6th & 41st.  Seeing that this seems to be the norm with this parade, they should just have the detour take place for the entire time, but allow the bus stop at 6th and 41st because otherwise you eliminate 4 stops out of the 12, which is a bit much to say the least.

 

I get the whole approximate thing, but what I don't understand is who do they get the information from to begin with for these planned events and why can't they provide the same information?  The information always conflicts with the website versus what appears at the bus stop.

[qjtransitmaster]

You didn't say it but you certainly implied it.  I criticize like everyone else of course.

 

Last night was a perfect example of terrible information.  Their website said that the Brazilian Parade would be over around 20:00.  The bus stop said at 21:00 with "approximate" being stressed.  A couple of hours later, surely we thought service would be normal again for the BxM2.  We were wrong. I walked to 41st and 6th and waited there with a bunch of other people thinking that was a safe stop.  Then a dispatcher came by and explained that the buses were still being detoured via 8th Avenue, which we thought was absurd seeing the M5 and M7 were running down to 42nd and then turning there.  After we made such a stink about how the parade had been over for several hours, he agreed to have the bus stop at 6th & 41st.  Seeing that this seems to be the norm with this parade, they should just have the detour take place for the entire time, but allow the bus stop at 6th and 41st because otherwise you eliminate 4 stops out of the 12, which is a bit much to say the least.

 

I get the whole approximate thing, but what I don't understand is who do they get the information from to begin with for these planned events and why can't they provide the same information?  The information always conflicts with the website versus what appears at the bus stop.

knowing that why didn't you just take the subway you knew the buses are screwed up why bother

[Via Garibaldi 8]

knowing that why didn't you just take the subway you knew the buses are screwed up why bother

The detour was supposed to be over hours ago, so nothing was supposed to be "screwed up" and at that time of night, the express bus is much faster than taking the subway to the Bx10.

[S78 via Hylan]

knowing that why didn't you just take the subway you knew the buses are screwed up why bother

The subway isn't always the best option either. Just like buses, it's prone to many delays.

[bobtehpanda]

WHAT NO MAPS not even in app form?

 

Buses are not run by the government - each area of Hong Kong has several licensed bus operators. Each runs a very complex system of bus routes that can be changed at any time. Bus routes are numbered from 1-999, and may also have additional letter suffixes or prefixes. In addition, bus routes are often repeated within separate service areas (Hong Kong Island, Kowloon, and the New Territories each have a bus route numbered 11, for example). Hong Kong also follows the British tradition of running completely different routes during nights as a 'night bus network'.

 

And this is before we include minibus routes, which are basically fourteen-seater share taxis. Green minibuses ply routes similar to bus routes, stopping at marked stops along numbered routes. Red minibuses travel along a general route from point A to point B, and pickups and dropoffs can be made along the way at the driver's discretion. (Red minibuses are the inspiration for the 'Chinatown vans' that run in the city between Flushing, Chinatown, Elmhurst, and Brooklyn Chinatown.)

 

For this reason, maintaining a public map is impossible. There are tourist maps available in handbooks (not too comprehensive), but they cost HK$70 (about US$10) and may not be up to date due to the sheer complexity of the network.

[qjtransitmaster]

The detour was supposed to be over hours ago, so nothing was supposed to be "screwed up" and at that time of night, the express bus is much faster than taking the subway to the Bx10.

well no shit Sherlock.

 

Buses are not run by the government - each area of Hong Kong has several licensed bus operators. Each runs a very complex system of bus routes that can be changed at any time. Bus routes are numbered from 1-999, and may also have additional letter suffixes or prefixes. In addition, bus routes are often repeated within separate service areas (Hong Kong Island, Kowloon, and the New Territories each have a bus route numbered 11, for example). Hong Kong also follows the British tradition of running completely different routes during nights as a 'night bus network'.

 

And this is before we include minibus routes, which are basically fourteen-seater share taxis. Green minibuses ply routes similar to bus routes, stopping at marked stops along numbered routes. Red minibuses travel along a general route from point A to point B, and pickups and dropoffs can be made along the way at the driver's discretion. (Red minibuses are the inspiration for the 'Chinatown vans' that run in the city between Flushing, Chinatown, Elmhurst, and Brooklyn Chinatown.)

 

For this reason, maintaining a public map is impossible. There are tourist maps available in handbooks (not too comprehensive), but they cost HK$70 (about US$10) and may not be up to date due to the sheer complexity of the network.

Wow. How do the bus lines profit?

The subway isn't always the best option either. Just like buses, it's prone to many delays.

I envy areas where express buses are fast and useful.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I envy areas where express buses are fast and useful.

That's funny coming from you...

[qjtransitmaster]

That's funny coming from you...

Express buses in outlying areas are more predictable. However should a better option exist such as LIRR or in rare cases MNRR then I'd gladly use those as they don't have the screwups. But inner parts with subways and no expressway nobody would use an express bus. The & are very reliable but the number lines all SUCK. Fortunately there are other nearby lines to take. For midtown I wish more people used BM5s so MTA can actually run them often without carrying air. Sadly the people don't care. Only way I see BM5 getting more is if QM24 is moved to spring creek and given off peak service then extended via fountain/Logan.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Express buses in outlying areas are more predictable. However should a better option exist such as LIRR or in rare cases MNRR then I'd gladly use those as they don't have the screwups. But inner parts with subways and no expressway nobody would use an express bus. The & are very reliable but the number lines all SUCK. Fortunately there are other nearby lines to take. For midtown I wish more people used BM5s so MTA can actually run them often without carrying air. Sadly the people don't care. Only way I see BM5 getting more is if QM24 is moved to spring creek and given off peak service then extended via fountain/Logan.

Well express buses make life easier but they are also expensive.  I usually get the unlimited card, but a pay-per-ride is where is where you really see the cost add up, even if you just use the express bus a few days a week, twice a day.  $36.00 for the three days of travel is expensive for public transit.  That's almost a week of groceries for some people.  It's $64.50 for MetroNorth + the Hudson Rail Link unless you buy a pass and the unlimited option, but some people can't afford the upfront cost.  

 

I heard that more people are being laid off and that means that those people won't be using the express bus, so the areas that are more working middle class will see ridership drop more.  There's also the issue of traffic.  Traffic is getting worse in some areas and express buses are suffering, so you have two things going on.  Some people simply can't afford them and others are simply tired of the slow traffic and switched their commutes to something else (either driving in or some other set up).  

 

The areas that are truly dependent on express buses and also can afford the express bus won't see such huge drops.  Most of Staten Island, Bay Ridge, Dyker Heights, Riverdale, Bayside, Bay Terrace, etc. are fairly affluent and have the disposable income in addition to the express bus being the show in town, but I would think that areas like Canarsie which are more working class will continue to see drops in ridership because you have to cut something, even if that means a longer, more painful commute.  

 

On the other hand the LIRR and MetroNorth (most of Westchester, Riverdale, etc.) probably won't see crazy decreases in ridership, as most of those areas are fairly affluent as well.

[qjtransitmaster]

Well express buses make life easier but they are also expensive.  I usually get the unlimited card, but a pay-per-ride is where is where you really see the cost add up, even if you just use the express bus a few days a week, twice a day.  $36.00 for the three days of travel is expensive for public transit.  That's almost a week of groceries for some people.  It's $64.50 for MetroNorth + the Hudson Rail Link unless you buy a pass and the unlimited option, but some people can't afford the upfront cost.  

 

I heard that more people are being laid off and that means that those people won't be using the express bus, so the areas that are more working middle class will see ridership drop more.  There's also the issue of traffic.  Traffic is getting worse in some areas and express buses are suffering, so you have two things going on.  Some people simply can't afford them and others are simply tired of the slow traffic and switched their commutes to something else (either driving in or some other set up).  

 

The areas that are truly dependent on express buses and also can afford the express bus won't see such huge drops.  Most of Staten Island, Bay Ridge, Dyker Heights, Riverdale, Bayside, Bay Terrace, etc. are fairly affluent and have the disposable income in addition to the express bus being the show in town, but I would think that areas like Canarsie which are more working class will continue to see drops in ridership because you have to cut something, even if that means a longer, more painful commute.  

 

On the other hand the LIRR and MetroNorth (most of Westchester, Riverdale, etc.) probably won't see crazy decreases in ridership, as most of those areas are fairly affluent as well.

Everybody uses metronorth regardless of income level north of the Bronx. In bayside you must be referring to QM2 Right? If people aren't truly dependant on express buses then they won't use em.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Everybody uses metronorth regardless of income level north of the Bronx. In bayside you must be referring to QM2 Right? If people aren't truly dependant on express buses then they won't use em.

Yes, but the question is how often.  It was already discussed by some people during the last MetroNorth fare hike that those people that were barely scrapping by and took MetroNorth may have to find another way to get around because the price is simply too high.  Someone making 20 - 30k a year in the Bronx is simply not going to be able to use MetroNorth on a daily basis unless they have some sort of safety net at home.  Sure, they may use it here and there on occasion, but in the overall scope of things, their usage will have to go down.  

[qjtransitmaster]

Yes, but the question is how often.  It was already discussed by some people during the last MetroNorth fare hike that those people that were barely scrapping by and took MetroNorth may have to find another way to get around because the price is simply too high.  Someone making 20 - 30k a year in the Bronx is simply not going to be able to use MetroNorth on a daily basis unless they have some sort of safety net at home.  Sure, they may use it here and there on occasion, but in the overall scope of things, their usage will have to go down.  

I am talking about people in Westchester residents who don't live in the Bronx or those in the Bronx who reverse commute.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I am talking about people in Westchester residents who don't live in the Bronx or those in the Bronx who reverse commute.

My apologies... I missed the north of the Bronx part, but yes that's true.  They don't have much of a choice but to use it OR move elsewhere, which will probably happen as MetroNorth increases come into play in 2015 and 2017.  I would imagine that a one way ticket during peak hours will be well over $10.00 by itself within the city.  I have noticed a lot more people traveling off-peak than in the past and my thinking is that they're trying to save on the fare. 

[qjtransitmaster]

My apologies... I missed the north of the Bronx part, but yes that's true.  They don't have much of a choice but to use it OR move elsewhere, which will probably happen as MetroNorth increases come into play in 2015 and 2017.  I would imagine that a one way ticket during peak hours will be well over $10.00 by itself within the city.  I have noticed a lot more people traveling off-peak than in the past and my thinking is that they're trying to save on the fare. 

Peak fares do not apply to travel between points north of the Bronx intermittent fares don't carry the peak penalty. Travel between Westchester and Fordham is insanely cheap and peak fares don't apply to travel not to and from GCT from what I remember. Hence why I think the MTA loses millions by not having fare gates at metro-north stations as the ticket collection is so lax people stopped buying intermittent tickets for a while. I would say the real increase in offpeak use can be attributed to higher fuel costs and more jobs outside traditional hours in CT and Westchester moreso than high fares. The NH line has a ton of riders NOT going to GCT!!!!

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Peak fares do not apply to travel between points north of the Bronx intermittent fares don't carry the peak penalty. Travel between Westchester and Fordham is insanely cheap and peak fares don't apply to travel not to and from GCT from what I remember. Hence why I think the MTA loses millions by not having fare gates at metro-north stations as the ticket collection is so lax people stopped buying intermittent tickets for a while. I would say the real increase in offpeak use can be attributed to higher fuel costs and more jobs outside traditional hours in CT and Westchester moreso than high fares. The NH line has a ton of riders NOT going to GCT!!!!

I noticed that and I'm sure other people do too.  In fact some people get off in the Bronx coming from Westchester precisely to avoid paying the additional fares and take the subway the rest of the way in.

[bobtehpanda]

Wow. How do the bus lines profit?

 

90+% mode share for public transportation.

 

The point of that whole tangent was, hey, information sucks here, but it could be a lot worse. For the longest time, Dublin, Ireland didn't even have a regularly published bus map (they had local area maps which they published, but the overall bus map was not frequently updated).

[qjtransitmaster]

90+% mode share for public transportation.

 

The point of that whole tangent was, hey, information sucks here, but it could be a lot worse. For the longest time, Dublin, Ireland didn't even have a regularly published bus map (they had local area maps which they published, but the overall bus map was not frequently updated).

How they get 90% mode share?

[bobtehpanda]

How they get 90% mode share?

 

You could google or PM this information...

 

But, historical reasons, the subway company/conglomerate makes millions developing property by its subway stations and running other cities' subway systems, and Hong Kong is a sea of 30+ story apartment blocks, even in the suburbs. Also, no free transfers (but most subway rides and bus rides are less than US$2 so that's not a problem).

 

Also, owning a car is difficult (parking spaces must be rented, extremely high petrol tax, high parking rates, high vehicle fees, and insane levels of traffic congestion).