MTA Long Range Planning

[BrooklynBus]

http://www.sheepsheadbites.com/2013/08/mta-long-range-planning-part-1-of-2/

 

http://www.sheepsheadbites.com/2013/08/mta-long-range-planning-part-2-of-2/

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I actually take issue with your series 2 comments. You can't be everything to everyone.  SBS is a service for those who need quicker bus service.  If the seniors need bus service, the local buses are still there, so it's not as if they've lost service or aren't being served and think it's wrong to insinuate that.  The fact that SBS has taken this long to debut is the real problem.

 

Now I do agree with you that bus service should be looked at more.  In fact I would argue that the should be exploring more off-payment options to speed up boarding and also looking to get rid of the Metrocard for a more easier payment option.

[BrooklynBus]

No one is saying that SBS needs to be everything to everybody. There is nothing wrong with seniors taking a local and having to change to an SBS. The problem occurs when doing that costs them an extra fare so they are forced to walk instead extra blocks to the SBS stops which can be placed a mile apart in some instance.

 

Yes, the slowness of SBS debuting is a big problem. In 2003, we were supposed to have the first 5 routes operating by 2008, and ten more by 2013. So now there should be 15 routes already operating. But MetroCard should also have been up by 1987, not 1997. And when will the first three stops of the Second Avenue subway be running? By 2018 which will become 2020?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

No one is saying that SBS needs to be everything to everybody. There is nothing wrong with seniors taking a local and having to change to an SBS. The problem occurs when doing that costs them an extra fare so they are forced to walk instead extra blocks to the SBS stops which can be placed a mile apart in some instance.

 

Yes, the slowness of SBS debuting is a big problem. In 2003, we were supposed to have the first 5 routes operating by 2008, and ten more by 2013. So now there should be 15 routes already operating. But MetroCard should also have been up by 1987, not 1997. And when will the first three stops of the Second Avenue subway be running? By 2018 which will become 2020?

I don't understand why any seniors would have to pay an extra fare because of the SBS bus if they're using the local bus??

[bobtehpanda]

The thing is, why would they need to change to an SBS bus from a local bus? The SBS and LTD system is not intended to be used as the subway express-local system is - changing from a local to express train is always going to be easier and more comfortable than changing from a local bus to an LTD bus, since it's almost always cross-platform on a level-boarding vehicle that allows for quick and easy boarding. (Say what you want about the buses, but they're still higher than curb level, and due to interior layout and a smaller amount of smaller entryways, they're slower to let people board on and off.

 

It's also not going to save that much time for anyone involved - for the M15 SBS, a local bus is 1:40 at 7:59, while a SBS bus makes the same trip in 1:14. This is theoretically a 28% difference in time savings, but the vast majority of people don't use the M15 all the way down to South Ferry from 125th St. It is better then, to compare three operational segments - Harlem to 50th St, Houston St to 50th St, and 34th St to South Ferry.

 

Harlem/125th St to 50th St

 

M15 - 39 minutes

M15 SBS - 26 minutes

13 minute difference

 

Houston St to 50th St

M15 - 28 minutes

M15 SBS - 19 minutes

9 minute difference

 

34th St to South Ferry

M15 - 34 minutes

M15 SBS - 28 minutes

6 minute difference

 

These are the travel times, according to both MTA schedules and Google Maps, of the buses. During off-peak hours, the gap between local and SBS buses may get smaller because the amount of time a bus takes to pull in and out of a stop is compounded by congestion, even with bus lanes available. In the grand scheme of things, a reduction of travel time by less than 15 minutes is not going to do much for the average person - with the difficulty of getting in and out of an M15 during the rush hour, it's not worth it. You specifically mention seniors as people who would be most likely to do this, but seniors would have the most difficulty getting off a crowded M15 local, rushing up to a M15 SBS stop, and then boarding a crowded M15 SBS.

 

If the MTA had median busways with island platforms that had SBS on one side and local on the other, I, too, would find it ridiculous to charge another fare to switch to another bus. However, it's not easy to do it even if it cost a single fare, and it's usually not worth it, so it's not really a problem.

[BrooklynBus]

I don't understand why any seniors would have to pay an extra fare because of the SBS bus if they're using the local bus??

On the proposed B44 SBS and also on the S79, some SBS bus stops are one mile apart. That means you may have to walk one-quarter mile just to access the route and then up to another half mile to access an SBS bus stop. That' s a total of 3/4 mile walk to the bus, clearly too much to walk not only for seniors, but also for anyone not in great shape or having a problem walking such a someone with sciatica whic his a temporary condition or someone on crutches.

 

For those people it makes a lot of sense to walk to the local and transfer to the SBS for a quicker ride. It won't cost extra if that is the only transfer you need. But what about all those transferring to another bus or the train. Probably more than half the riders fall into that category. Why shold they be faced with an extra fare if they want te SBS. Clearly they will choose to just stay on the local for a longer trip.

 

I think some provisions have been made in SI to permit riding on the S79 and transferring to the local S78 without any penalization preventing a third transfer. At least tat is true regarding transferring to the R and I belee the B1. It may not be true for all other transfers. No such allowances have been announced for the B44 SBS.

 

To bobthepanda.

 

I am not talking about the M15 but the S79 and all future SBS routes like the B44 SBS where the stops will be at great distances from each oter in some instances.

[Vistausss]

No one is forcing seniors to take SBS. Some might walk the distance (not every senior is incapable of walking more than a few feet), some don't and take the local. SBS isn't meant to be *the* solution, it's meant to provide additional service while saving time (though, as bobtehpanda points out, it depends on your destination). It's needed. For a quick comparison, take the (J)/(Z). The doesn't save that much time but without it the would be in serious trouble.

[Trainmaster5]

 For a quick comparison, take the (J)/(Z). The doesn't save that much time but without it the would be in serious trouble.

I think I get what you're trying to say but your example is as wrong as two left shoes. The cannot save any time over the train because the is a train. They are one and the same except for the bullets on the front and side. There are no crews with a job on the line.  They work the line exclusively and on certain trips they make a different combination of stops compared to other crews. It's likely that there are times when the RCC would have trains marked and make all stops whereas the Surface Command Center would take another approach.Perhaps using a different example, say B44 LCL, LTD, SBS, would be clearer. In that case you would have B44 services operating on different streets(routes). Carry on.

[BrooklynBus]

No one is forcing seniors to take SBS. Some might walk the distance (not every senior is incapable of walking more than a few feet), some don't and take the local. SBS isn't meant to be *the* solution, it's meant to provide additional service while saving time (though, as bobtehpanda points out, it depends on your destination). It's needed. For a quick comparison, take the (J)/(Z). The doesn't save that much time but without it the would be in serious trouble.

Right. No one is forcing seniors to use SBS. Why should they be able to use a faster service? After all they are not working and have all the tie in the world. You could also look at it the other way. Since they have less time left on this planet, their reaming time is more valuable than yours and they have more of a right to be able to save a few minutes. They shoud not be penalized by having to pay an extra fare.

[Fresh Pond]

No one is saying that SBS needs to be everything to everybody. There is nothing wrong with seniors taking a local and having to change to an SBS. The problem occurs when doing that costs them an extra fare so they are forced to walk instead extra blocks to the SBS stops which can be placed a mile apart in some instance.

 

Yes, the slowness of SBS debuting is a big problem. In 2003, we were supposed to have the first 5 routes operating by 2008, and ten more by 2013. So now there should be 15 routes already operating. But MetroCard should also have been up by 1987, not 1997. And when will the first three stops of the Second Avenue subway be running? By 2018 which will become 2020?

You get an additional free transfer from an SBS bus to its local counterpart in addition to the regular transfer (and between the S79 & S78)

 

Not sure of it applies to the M34 & the M34A...

[qjtransitmaster]

No one is saying that SBS needs to be everything to everybody. There is nothing wrong with seniors taking a local and having to change to an SBS. The problem occurs when doing that costs them an extra fare so they are forced to walk instead extra blocks to the SBS stops which can be placed a mile apart in some instance.

 

Yes, the slowness of SBS debuting is a big problem. In 2003, we were supposed to have the first 5 routes operating by 2008, and ten more by 2013. So now there should be 15 routes already operating. But MetroCard should also have been up by 1987, not 1997. And when will the first three stops of the Second Avenue subway be running? By 2018 which will become 2020?

It's called the unlimited get one it's half off for seniors anyway this is a non issue.

[BrooklynBus]

You get an additional free transfer from an SBS bus to its local counterpart in addition to the regular transfer (and between the S79 & S78)

Not sure of it applies to the M34 & the M34A...

Thanks. Don't think it is really important if it applies to the M34 and M34A. It is only crucial for SBS routes with great distances between bus stops. But all introducing all these exceptions that are not spelled out anywhere instead of a uniform policy is also an unnecessary and confusing complexity that discourages mass transit use and is a step backward into the 1950s and 60s when you coulld take anywhere between 2 and 14 buses for one fare but most of the time needed an additional fare for two buses.

[B35 via Church]

Granted, I didn't read all of both parts of the article, but from what I saw, I don't have a problem with it....

 

I'll just say this much....

Outside of SBS, I don't think they're even reacting to changing travel needs...

 

Realizing that they were as far behind with it all as they were, what they're reacting to is keeping up with the times (the computer age, the information age, whatever you wanna call it).... I mean, look at how big a jump it was to go from the R68/a to the R142.....

[BrooklynBus]

It's called the unlimited get one it's half off for seniors anyway this is a non issue.

Not everyone can afford an unlimited and many don't ride everyday where an unlimited pays for itself. Anyway, most riders still prefer pay per ride so it definitely is still an issue.

 

 

Granted, I didn't read all of both parts of the article, but from what I saw, I don't have a problem with it....

 

I'll just say this much....

Outside of SBS, I don't think they're even reacting to changing travel needs...

 

Realizing that they were as far behind with it all as they were, what they're reacting to is keeping up with the times (the computer age, the information age, whatever you wanna call it).... I mean, look at how big a jump it was to go from the R68/a to the R142.....

And you can thank Jay Walder for that. It was his main accomplishment. If not for him the MTA would still be in the dark ages and totally technolologically behind th times, and keeping all their information private and we never would have had a competition for app design. Remember what a struggle it was jus to get the MTA to publish subway schedules? They used every excuse in the book why it couldn't be done. After tey finally agreed, it still took four years until every one was available. That was before their website when everything had to be on paper.

[qjtransitmaster]

Not everyone can afford an unlimited and many don't ride everyday where an unlimited pays for itself. Anyway, most riders still prefer pay per ride so it definitely is still an issue.

 

 

 

And you can thank Jay Walder for that. It was his main accomplishment. If not for him the MTA would still be in the dark ages and totally technolologically behind th times, and keeping all their information private and we never would have had a competition for app design. Remember what a struggle it was jus to get the MTA to publish subway schedules? They used every excuse in the book why it couldn't be done. After tey finally agreed, it still took four years until every one was available. That was before their website when everything had to be on paper.

so $56 is too costly? You do realize that is the cost of the monthly for seniors right? It's not about preference it's about fiscal sence and a PPR makes none. If you ride more than 12 times a week a PPR makes ZERO SENSE. The senior monthly is nowhere near $100 it's in the 50s range so it's only an issue for morons not smart enough to realize the savings an unlimited brings. Do the numbers.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

so $56 is too costly? You do realize that is the cost of the monthly for seniors right? It's not about preference it's about fiscal sence and a PPR makes none. If you ride more than 12 times a week a PPR makes ZERO SENSE. The senior monthly is nowhere near $100 it's in the 50s range so it's only an issue for morons not smart enough to realize the savings an unlimited brings. Do the numbers.

Actually you'd have to ride the train and/or bus at least 3.8 times per day (rounded), which most don't do. However, you can encourage more rides with that. I guess its a neutral argument about the unlimited.

[Trainmaster5]

Granted, I didn't read all of both parts of the article, but from what I saw, I don't have a problem with it....

 

I'll just say this much....

Outside of SBS, I don't think they're even reacting to changing travel needs...

 

Realizing that they were as far behind with it all as they were, what they're reacting to is keeping up with the times (the computer age, the information age, whatever you wanna call it).... I mean, look at how big a jump it was to go from the R68/a to the R142.....

Let's face it, the is re-active rather than pro-active. While there are many people in the various divisions, NYCT,MNRR,LIRR, who have the knowledge and foresight to do long range planning the agency as a whole is reactive. The last time the did a comprehensive regional plan was at it's founding, IMO. I realize funding has been problematic over the years but if countdown clocks, SBS, and "Cannonball Service" from Penn Station to Montauk are your major accomplishments for the last decade something is wrong with the way you operate. Just my opinion. Carry on.

[qjtransitmaster]

Let's face it, the is re-active rather than pro-active. While there are many people in the various divisions, NYCT,MNRR,LIRR, who have the knowledge and foresight to do long range planning the agency as a whole is reactive. The last time the did a comprehensive regional plan was at it's founding, IMO. I realize funding has been problematic over the years but if countdown clocks, SBS, and "Cannonball Service" from Penn Station to Montauk are your major accomplishments for the last decade something is wrong with the way you operate. Just my opinion. Carry on.

Damn phone again I wanted to upvote it sorry.

Granted, I didn't read all of both parts of the article, but from what I saw, I don't have a problem with it....

 

I'll just say this much....

Outside of SBS, I don't think they're even reacting to changing travel needs...

 

Realizing that they were as far behind with it all as they were, what they're reacting to is keeping up with the times (the computer age, the information age, whatever you wanna call it).... I mean, look at how big a jump it was to go from the R68/a to the R142.....

Sadly your right.

[Vistausss]

It's called the unlimited get one it's half off for seniors anyway this is a non issue.

 

Not everyone can afford an unlimited and many don't ride everyday where an unlimited pays for itself. Anyway, most riders still prefer pay per ride so it definitely is still an issue. Granted, I didn't read all of both parts of the article, but from what I saw, I don't have a problem with it....

 

I'll just say this much....

Outside of SBS, I don't think they're even reacting to changing travel needs...

 

Realizing that they were as far behind with it all as they were, what they're reacting to is keeping up with the times (the computer age, the information age, whatever you wanna call it).... I mean, look at how big a jump it was to go from the R68/a to the R142.....

 

And you can thank Jay Walder for that. It was his main accomplishment. If not for him the MTA would still be in the dark ages and totally technolologically behind th times, and keeping all their information private and we never would have had a competition for app design. Remember what a struggle it was jus to get the MTA to publish subway schedules? They used every excuse in the book why it couldn't be done. After tey finally agreed, it still took four years until every one was available.That was before their website when everything had to be on paper.

And compared to my country (which actually is in Western Europe) the is now actually ahead of the competition when it comes to travel information. Clear and easy-to-use website, open source API for BusTime, BusTime itself... That's all missing here (except for the websites but they are awful compared to the (MTA)'s site).

 

-- Sent from my TouchPad using Communities

[B35 via Church]

Let's face it, the is re-active rather than pro-active. While there are many people in the various divisions, NYCT,MNRR,LIRR, who have the knowledge and foresight to do long range planning the agency as a whole is reactive. The last time the did a comprehensive regional plan was at it's founding, IMO. I realize funding has been problematic over the years but if countdown clocks, SBS, and "Cannonball Service" from Penn Station to Montauk are your major accomplishments for the last decade something is wrong with the way you operate. Just my opinion. Carry on.

If I accidentally slice myself with a knife & I know I'ma end up needing stitches, it's cheaper (albeit stupid) to cover the wound with an array of constricting band-aid's that spans the length of the cut - As opposed to goin to the hospital & gettin the wound taken care of properly....

 

The MTA.... Is like the smart kid in class that spends his time & resources lookin for ways to cause harm & chaos, instead of spending said time & resources to make the world a little better place.....

 

So yup, Case in point - it's easier to be reactive.

[BrooklynBus]

And compared to my country (which actually is in Western Europe) the is now actually ahead of the competition when it comes to travel information. Clear and easy-to-use website, open source API for BusTime, BusTime itself... That's all missing here (except for the websites but they are awful compared to the (MTA)'s site).

 

-- Sent from my TouchPad using Communities

The MTA website is only easy to use for basic functions like looking up schedules or maps. Their trip planner is not very good either. It is horrible if you want to look up some historical information because much of what you want is buried in hundred page board documents and you have to know the date of what you are looking for. Or else the information you want like what happened at a public hearing is not available because all references to the hearing are removed after it occurs, so there is a six month period with no status regarding when an approved proposal will be implemented. I haven't had much luck with the search function either.

 

 

If I accidentally slice myself with a knife & I know I'ma end up needing stitches, it's cheaper (albeit stupid) to cover the wound with an array of constricting band-aid's that spans the length of the cut - As opposed to goin to the hospital & gettin the wound taken care of properly....

 

The MTA.... Is like the smart kid in class that spends his time & resources lookin for ways to cause harm & chaos, instead of spending said time & resources to make the world a little better place.....

 

So yup, Case in point - it's easier to be reactive.

How do you stop a leak? Find the source of the problem and fix it or put a pan under the leak catch and divert the water and leave it there for years? What do you do first fix a leak or put up new tile so it becomes water damaged in a few weeks?

[B35 via Church]

The MTA website is only easy to use for basic functions like looking up schedules or maps. Their trip planner is not very good either. It is horrible if you want to look up some historical information because much of what you want is buried in hundred page board documents and you have to know the date of what you are looking for. Or else the information you want like what happened at a public hearing is not available because all references to the hearing are removed after it occurs, so there is a six month period with no status regarding when an approved proposal will be implemented. I haven't had much luck with the search function either.

Hmpf, funny, because that's the ONLY reasons I go on the MTA's site - to d/l the latest map or to check the route timetables......

The site overall is one unorganized mess/clusterf**k -how you have tabulations & still accomplish this, is beyond me

If you're looking for something posted in the past on the MTA's site, forget it... their "search" function is worthless.....

 

Trip planner is good for a few laughs... All jokes aside (the irony, right).....

The number one thing I abhor about it, is that it has a tendency to suggest certain bus/subway routes over others (as if routes that'd put you off closer or get you somewhere quicker, doesn't exist)... There isn't much variation to the 3 itineraries they give you either.....

 

 

How do you stop a leak? Find the source of the problem and fix it or put a pan under the leak catch and divert the water and leave it there for years?

What do you do first fix a leak or put up new tile so it becomes water damaged in a few weeks?

An even better/practical analogy....

 

A sensible person would go about doing the former solution.....

The MTA however, well.......

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The MTA website is only easy to use for basic functions like looking up schedules or maps. Their trip planner is not very good either. It is horrible if you want to look up some historical information because much of what you want is buried in hundred page board documents and you have to know the date of what you are looking for. Or else the information you want like what happened at a public hearing is not available because all references to the hearing are removed after it occurs, so there is a six month period with no status regarding when an approved proposal will be implemented. I haven't had much luck with the search function either.

 

 

 

How do you stop a leak? Find the source of the problem and fix it or put a pan under the leak catch and divert the water and leave it there for years? What do you do first fix a leak or put up new tile so it becomes water damaged in a few weeks?

Oh give me a break with the criticizing.  You act like it's beyond complicated for someone to go onto the website, look at a map and plan out their commute.  I've used the Planner a few times for areas I wasn't familiar with and though I went with other options, the planner's set up wasn't exactly that terrible either.  I'm not going to sit here and say that the can't improve, but let's put some responsibility on the commuters as well. You have a lot of incompetent and lazy commuters out here as well, who, no matter how the improved their website, would still hold everyone up with idle BS.  I had a lady yesterday get on the BxM2 at my stop.  I got to the stop a good 10 minutes prior and she was there before me, yet she didn't even try to locate a place to get a Metrocard. Instead she got on and started asking everyone if they had a Metrocard, holding the entire bus up since no one could get past with her blocking the aisle.  

[qjtransitmaster]

Oh give me a break with the criticizing.  You act like it's beyond complicated for someone to go onto the website, look at a map and plan out their commute.  I've used the Planner a few times for areas I wasn't familiar with and though I went with other options, the planner's set up wasn't exactly that terrible either.  I'm not going to sit here and say that the can't improve, but let's put some responsibility on the commuters as well. You have a lot of incompetent and lazy commuters out here as well, who, no matter how the improved their website, would still hold everyone up with idle BS.  I had a lady yesterday get on the BxM2 at my stop.  I got to the stop a good 10 minutes prior and she was there before me, yet she didn't even try to locate a place to get a Metrocard. Instead she got on and started asking everyone if they had a Metrocard, holding the entire bus up since no one could get past with her blocking the aisle.  

Why not throw her off?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Why not throw her off?

Too many of the hoity toity Riverdale types. Surely she would've thrown a fit.  The B/O was trying to get her to move along but it was like talking to a wall.  The real kicker was I think she gave the chick in the first seat $5.00 and then took her Metrocard and dipped it for $6.00.  That would've been a big no-no for me.