Should We Abandon 138/GC? YES!

[SubwayGuy]

Also remember that when much of the IRT was built, the majority of the lines were built to "nowhere". Most of the areas built up gradually over time.

 

[realizm]

Yup. Subway lines were generally built in areas that were underdeveloped in order to bring vitality to the area promoting an urban demographic change. I heard the IRT Queens Blvd corridor and the IND Queens Blvd subway itself ran through farms while being constructed with the Dual Contracts or through the IND. Look at how Queens is now. 

 

Same story with the Bronx when the Dual Contacts with the routes awarded to the IRT as you see in the above photo.

[MTA Dude]

You are just going insane here. Shutting this down will cause problems for the . Also, I think that most of the time, and trains come at around the same time, so they would have to be one minute away from each other, causing delays. The skips it because the is there, and it is to manage spacing so instead of about a one minute headway, it is a four minute headway.

[Quill Depot]

The MTA makes money from the station. You can't wait 5 more seconds for the train to stop?

Anyway you already answered your question, you said yes.

[SubwayGuy]

You are just going insane here. Shutting this down will cause problems for the . Also, I think that most of the time, and trains come at around the same time, so they would have to be one minute away from each other, causing delays. The skips it because the is there, and it is to manage spacing so instead of about a one minute headway, it is a four minute headway.

 

The 4 bypasses the station so that if a 5 has to wait for a 4 to cross in front of it, and a second 5 is right behind that 5...the 2 is not affected.

 

The 4 crosses south of 138/GC.The first 5 sits in the station at 138/GC. The rear of the next 5 is partway in 1A track between the lower level of 149GC and the east side mainline as he approaches the standing train north of 138/GC.

 

A 2 following this can therefore continue into Manhattan via west side uninterrupted, since neither of those trains interfere with its movement.

 

However, if the 4 was sitting in 138/GC (making the stop), then the first 5 would have to be north of the station, partway on 1A track...which would keep the second 5 in the station at 149/GC lower level. Which definitely delays the 2 service.

 

During AM rush, particularly before you get to midtown, it's very important to minimize all delays, and keep them isolated to their affected corridors. If the east side is experiencing minor delays, no reason to pass those along to the west side...especially in the IRT since those delays become cumulative and catch up in Brooklyn at Franklin Ave.

[bobtehpanda]

LMAO... That is some serious flight then... To go from upscale to what it is now... There doesn't seem to be any housing construction in the immediate vicinity in the works either, so I expect that set up to remain the same.

 

Grand Concourse's Art Deco buildings were very stylish, posh, upper-middle class residences when they opened. The flight started in the '50s and '60s after the white people living there at the time realized that Hispanics and blacks were moving into neighborhoods and starting to integrate schools.

 

There was an old practice in real estate called "blockbusting" where realtors would sell one house to a family of color or make a lot of noise about trying to do so, then spread rumors to the rest of the neighborhood that black and Hispanic people were "invading" their neighborhoods. This would scare a lot of racist people who would fire sell the houses at rock-bottom prices to the realtors, causing a very vicious cycle of price dropping and selling in the neighborhood. Once this process was over, they would sell these places to people of color for very inflated prices, and it was usually worse because the FHA at the time didn't really give loans to people buying in majority-minority areas.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Grand Concourse's Art Deco buildings were very stylish, posh, upper-middle class residences when they opened. The flight started in the '50s and '60s after the white people living there at the time realized that Hispanics and blacks were moving into neighborhoods and starting to integrate schools.

 

There was an old practice in real estate called "blockbusting" where realtors would sell one house to a family of color or make a lot of noise about trying to do so, then spread rumors to the rest of the neighborhood that black and Hispanic people were "invading" their neighborhoods. This would scare a lot of racist people who would fire sell the houses at rock-bottom prices to the realtors, causing a very vicious cycle of price dropping and selling in the neighborhood. Once this process was over, they would sell these places to people of color for very inflated prices, and it was usually worse because the FHA at the time didn't really give loans to people buying in majority-minority areas.

Yeah well it happened in a lot of the Bronx and Upper Manhattan.. The Irish fled most of Inwood and Kingsbridge (save west of Broadway in both areas) and fled to more isolated suburban areas like Riverdale and Woodlawn, where they remain today.  The Jews fled Parkchester, the Grand Concourse area and parts of Kingsbridge Heights and ran to Co-Op City which they thought would be fine but then fled that area too and ran to Riverdale (en masse) or Westchester. LMAO Same thing with the Italians that lived along the Concourse... Fleed for more isolated areas (i.e. Throggs Neck, Country Club or Schulyerville) or went to Westchester.  What's amazing to me about the Bronx is all of the neighborhoods with subways are the pits... High crime, run down for the most part, and the areas that are more isolated without subway service are generally some of the best of the borough.  Supposedly Mott Haven is becoming a little popular, but from what I hear the difference between the Bronx and Brooklyn in terms of gentrification is that Brooklyn has a hip factor while the Bronx doesn't.  That and the areas near subways in the Bronx generally have TONS of housing projects which may slow gentrification significantly in the Bronx, but I guess we'll see...

[CenSin]

I wonder if anyone has thought about buying the vacant lots on the cheap and doing something useful with it. I mean... It's a stone's throw away from Manhattan.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I wonder if anyone has thought about buying the vacant lots on the cheap and doing something useful with it. I mean... It's a stone's throw away from Manhattan.

Problem is it's kind of an eyesore over there by that train station.  They would have to buy up all of those car lots and that's really a commercial strip in my mind.  Perhaps if the buildings were away from the main road it would be tolerable, but not only do you have that issue, but it's just rather run down over there and depressing and economically challenged. The Concourse doesn't look half decent until you get around the Courthouse area by 158th and that does NOT include the side streets, though 161st is tolerable in terms of safety going to Yankee Stadium (though not exactly clean IMO) since there are cops everywhere during game day, as I have personally witnessed, so the hood types stay far away (lol), but aside from 161st in that immediate area, those side streets above 165th and below 158th from what I hear are generally quite seedy and dangerous depending on where you're going, and therefore, I limit my travels to that small area and along 161st street and nothing more.  I also tutored in some co-ops right by 165th and Grand Concourse and was shocked to see that some sort of shooting had taken place nearby. I hauled @ss to the BxM4 and got out of there.

 

From what I've heard the county of the Bronx has spent millions down there sprucing that area up along the Concourse and it's still seedy mainly due to the characters nearby and the immense amount of housing projects.  That in my mind will keep that area from really taking off.  The South Bronx in particular just has way too many housing projects and the way that they're all clustered together makes gentrification that much more difficult.  I tutor down there near the Courthouse area and use the BxM4 at various hours.  Immediately by the Courthouse is generally quiet though you have your weirdos but there's always a police presence so it never gets too bad and I can track the express bus so that gives me a sense of ease though I'm always on high alert just in case. I think the other issue is there is really no sort of good stores there for eating or for shopping.  When I did jury duty down there I always brought my food in from the city or from Riverdale.  There is nothing down there but fast food joints, bodegas, and delis with crap food. 

 

If that 138th street Grand Concourse station were to ever take off I would think you would need the banks to come in as there really isn't any around save a few near Yankee Stadium.  They would have to invest heavily in the area and you would need more diversified businesses to open up to offer more options to those who have more money that could bring up the area.  Until that happens I don't see much changing.  Supposedly the Yankees invested a lot in the immediate area but I think they should've done more down in the South Bronx in general, but then again, so much money had to be poured just into that immediate area that who knows how much it would take to turn areas further south around. 

 

What I have been noticing coming through on the express bus though are more yuppy types crossing the Madison Ave bridge going over to Mott Haven, so who knows. There may be hope after all. lol

[bobtehpanda]

Problem is it's kind of an eyesore over there by that train station.  They would have to buy up all of those car lots and that's really a commercial strip in my mind.  Perhaps if the buildings were away from the main road it would be tolerable, but not only do you have that issue, but it's just rather run down over there and depressing and economically challenged. The Concourse doesn't look half decent until you get around the Courthouse area by 158th and that does NOT include the side streets, though 161st is tolerable in terms of safety going to Yankee Stadium (though not exactly clean IMO) since there are cops everywhere during game day, as I have personally witnessed, so the hood types stay far away (lol), but aside from 161st in that immediate area, those side streets above 165th and below 158th from what I hear are generally quite seedy and dangerous depending on where you're going, and therefore, I limit my travels to that small area and along 161st street and nothing more.  I also tutored in some co-ops right by 165th and Grand Concourse and was shocked to see that some sort of shooting had taken place nearby. I hauled @ss to the BxM4 and got out of there.

 

I mean, that was essentially what happened when the city muscled through the Willets Point Development Plan, so it's not entirely out of the question; Willets Point was more of an eyesore than Grand Concourse, had less convenient transportation, and didn't even have utilities. With the way real estate has been shooting upwards in this town, I'd say the South Bronx is going to gentrify sooner or later. If the Heights and ENY are starting to see gentrifiers come in, think about what'll happen in ten or twenty years.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I mean, that was essentially what happened when the city muscled through the Willets Point Development Plan, so it's not entirely out of the question; Willets Point was more of an eyesore than Grand Concourse, had less convenient transportation, and didn't even have utilities. With the way real estate has been shooting upwards in this town, I'd say the South Bronx is going to gentrify sooner or later. If the Heights and ENY are starting to see gentrifiers come in, think about what'll happen in ten or twenty years.

lol... I see some small changes along the Concourse but nothing major... It's not as if whites or other gentrifiers are coming in and displacing the poor folks already there.  The whites moving along the Concourse and other working class folks are coming there because they can't afford anything else.  Maybe they are making $35,000 a year if that, so if they want to stay in the city, their only option is the South Bronx or some other run down hellhole.  What you're seeing in this city is those with money are moving to Manhattan in droves and pushing those without to the outer parts of the city and the poorest areas.  Those people can't move to the more isolated parts of the city because those areas are already solid upper middle class enclaves and are isolated so the transportation expenses and housing costs pretty much don't make them a possibility.  That's what I find interesting.  There's this talk about people that are being displaced moving outside of the city to the suburbs, but unless they're moving to complete sh*t holes, they're going to pay through the nose commuting with the commuter trains, and it's no secret that those will continue to increase and rapidly, so I see those people being pushed out of NYC completely, or into really really crappy areas like East New York or Brownsville. lol

[Wallyhorse]

Given how close it is to Manhattan (and the fact the 138th Street station at Mott Haven is in fact the last stop before Manhattan), that area is prime to be one of the first to be built up once they finally build up the South Bronx (along with the area in and around Yankee Stadium). 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Given how close it is to Manhattan (and the fact the 138th Street station at Mott Haven is in fact the last stop before Manhattan), that area is prime to be one of the first to be built up once they finally build up the South Bronx (along with the area in and around Yankee Stadium). 

Where have you been? Part of the Yankees deal supposedly involved them sprucing up the area in and around Yankee Stadium). I have to wonder what exactly the Yankees spent money on aside from those baseball fields... 161st street is filthy as ever with bums hanging out and I don't see any new apartments anywhere either...

[bobtehpanda]

Where have you been? Part of the Yankees deal supposedly involved them sprucing up the area in and around Yankee Stadium). I have to wonder what exactly the Yankees spent money on aside from those baseball fields... 161st street is filthy as ever with bums hanging out and I don't see any new apartments anywhere either...

 

The stadium was a rotten deal, and they're considering developing the parking lots they built since no one will use them (because the new stadium is smaller than the old one, less people drive to games these days, etc.)

 

 

lol... I see some small changes along the Concourse but nothing major... It's not as if whites or other gentrifiers are coming in and displacing the poor folks already there.  The whites moving along the Concourse and other working class folks are coming there because they can't afford anything else.  Maybe they are making $35,000 a year if that, so if they want to stay in the city, their only option is the South Bronx or some other run down hellhole.  What you're seeing in this city is those with money are moving to Manhattan in droves and pushing those without to the outer parts of the city and the poorest areas.  Those people can't move to the more isolated parts of the city because those areas are already solid upper middle class enclaves and are isolated so the transportation expenses and housing costs pretty much don't make them a possibility.  That's what I find interesting.  There's this talk about people that are being displaced moving outside of the city to the suburbs, but unless they're moving to complete sh*t holes, they're going to pay through the nose commuting with the commuter trains, and it's no secret that those will continue to increase and rapidly, so I see those people being pushed out of NYC completely, or into really really crappy areas like East New York or Brownsville. lol

 

That's how this stuff starts. The first gentrifiers are the white people who can't afford anything else, then it becomes "cool" after enough people move there, then everybody else starts movin in, and then everyone below a certain income level gets pushed out. It started with the Village, continued in Williamsburg, and who knows where it'll be in twenty years.

 

I feel like outer Queens and Brooklyn is only going to get bigger, since their zoning still allows for a bit more density, and outer Queens in particular isn't as NIMBY as the rest of the city (well, west of the Cross Island and Springfield anyways).

[realizm]

The stadium was a rotten deal, and they're considering developing the parking lots they built since no one will use them (because the new stadium is smaller than the old one, less people drive to games these days, etc.)

 

 

 

That's how this stuff starts. The first gentrifiers are the white people who can't afford anything else, then it becomes "cool" after enough people move there, then everybody else starts movin in, and then everyone below a certain income level gets pushed out. It started with the Village, continued in Williamsburg, and who knows where it'll be in twenty years.

 

I feel like outer Queens and Brooklyn is only going to get bigger, since their zoning still allows for a bit more density, and outer Queens in particular isn't as NIMBY as the rest of the city (well, west of the Cross Island and Springfield anyways).

 

I thought the gentrification process actually started in Fort Greene under Bruce Ratner. As for the Village, its truly sad. The culture that used to be there is gone now. From my teen years it used to be such a fun and diverse place to hang out. Now that vibe is lost to time and rent hikes.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The stadium was a rotten deal, and they're considering developing the parking lots they built since no one will use them (because the new stadium is smaller than the old one, less people drive to games these days, etc.)

 

 

 

That's how this stuff starts. The first gentrifiers are the white people who can't afford anything else, then it becomes "cool" after enough people move there, then everybody else starts movin in, and then everyone below a certain income level gets pushed out. It started with the Village, continued in Williamsburg, and who knows where it'll be in twenty years.

 

I feel like outer Queens and Brooklyn is only going to get bigger, since their zoning still allows for a bit more density, and outer Queens in particular isn't as NIMBY as the rest of the city (well, west of the Cross Island and Springfield anyways).

Yeah well I remember when the Village was where you went for character.  Now it's so uber trendy that it's disgusting. There's no edge to the place and it's just like any other place.  All of the bars I used to go to are no longer.  Replaced by "chic" trendy "chain like" establishments...