Town Hall Meeting on May 17th to Restore the B4

[B35 via Church]

My sentiments exactly...

 

-------

I also don't understand why there is all of this talk about "fixing" the B4. There was nothing wrong with it to begin with other than the running sh*tty service, so that's what needs to be fixed. They ran crappy service to find a reason to justify cutting the Sheepshead Bay segment. Many of the times that the B4 was delayed it was coming from Bay Ridge. Hard to imagine B4s coming in twos with the crappy frequencies, but it did happen a few times and usually from Bay Ridge. Also if the routing was so terrible, explain why so many B4s were MIA?? That has nothing to do with the routing and everything to do with the neglecting the line.

That's what I say... the route having used emmons/shore pkwy service rd. & using ocean av to/from get to the subway, there was nothing wrong with.... BrooklynBus has nothing to apologize for, for him having came up w/ that routing.... The circuitousness was not the problem w/ the B4 by a longshot......

 

.....and to add to your post/points, if the routing was so terrible, why were folks utilizing the buses the way they did within Sheepshead.... I'll keep repeating this as many times as I have to, b/c there is validity to it... Sheepshead patrons got the short end of the stick w/ (service levels of) the B4 b/c Bay ridge pkwy isn't a real/major ridership generator.... that section of bay ridge/dyker hgts/bensonhurst is car country, for the most part... The part of sheepshead the B4 was robbed of did not deserve no 20-30 min headway towards the subway, etc..... To me, sending 36's in that same area is much ado about nothin..... It has less to do with that part of sheepshead & more to do with the part of sheepshead that already has the 36 & the 44......

 

I'm at fault too, but the focal point in this thread has shifted from better serving sheepshead bay riders north of av Z, instead of restoring the B4 (meaning, better serving riders south of av Z)......

[checkmatechamp13]

That's what I say... the route having used emmons/shore pkwy service rd. & using ocean av to/from get to the subway, there was nothing wrong with.... BrooklynBus has nothing to apologize for, for him having came up w/ that routing.... The circuitousness was not the problem w/ the B4 by a longshot......

 

.....and to add to your post/points, if the routing was so terrible, why were folks utilizing the buses the way they did within Sheepshead.... I'll keep repeating this as many times as I have to, b/c there is validity to it... Sheepshead patrons got the short end of the stick w/ (service levels of) the B4 b/c Bay ridge pkwy isn't a real/major ridership generator.... that section of bay ridge/dyker hgts/bensonhurst is car country, for the most part... The part of sheepshead the B4 was robbed of did not deserve no 20-30 min headway towards the subway, etc..... To me, sending 36's in that same area is much ado about nothin..... It has less to do with that part of sheepshead & more to do with the part of sheepshead that already has the 36 & the 44......

 

 

Because if they're going to the subway, the circuitousness of the route doesn't make a difference.

 

And in any case, if the route has good ridership, there's nothing saying ridership can't be better. If the B4 provides faster service to places like Sheepshead Bay Hospital (plus, I'm sure you could increase ridership going towards that part of Brooklyn you described as more car-oriented as well). I mean, BrooklynIRT said there were times when he could've taken the B4 within Sheepshead Bay, but it wasn't worth it with all the maneuvers it had to do.

[BrooklynBus]

To everyone:

 

I was up to 4 in the morning last night polishing up my pieces for Sheepshead Bites tomorrow, Tuesday and Wednesday. And that was after I thought everything was all complete. Just when I was putting on the final touches, I thought of a great idea and had to redo some parts. I believe these are the most important pieces I have written because it shows the opportunity to make real productive changes. When I finished, I felt like I just completed a jigsaw puzzle. That is what I like so much about bus route planning. I'm confident that everyone will like most of it and I may even get B35 to change his mind about routing the SBS to Sheepshead Bay Station after he reads my rationale.

 

I used Mysterious2train's blank bus map to draw the routes which will be revealed on Tuesday with explanations on Tuesday and Wednesday. Hopefully people will want to discuss it at Thursday's forum. And Garibaldi, pease do bring up the BM3. I also intend to mention the D stopping at DeKalb on weekends if no one else brings it up. This forum is definitely not just about the B4. I'm very anxious to hear everyone's opinions, but don't want to give any spoilers now. I will just say there are some ideas I do not think have been discussed before. Hope to see you on Thursday and please introduce yourself.

[BrooklynIRT]

If the old routing of the B4 is what everybody wants, then so be it. I have personal issues with "roundabout" bus lines, but whatever. I thought it could be more effective if it went straight down Neptune/Emmons/Shore Pkwy South. It does not matter. I will not go on about it.

 

I can see what B35 is saying about how the fact that that other part of Brooklyn is car country and thus the MTA has a reason to run the B4 at such poor headways. I agree with him. Also I was the one who asked about the B36's issues, and my questions were answered for the most part. The only thing I do not know is when the B36 had shuttles east of SB station, as this information is not available anywhere online. Carry on with the thread.

[B35 via Church]

If the old routing of the B4 is what everybody wants, then so be it.

Well, that's what worked......

 

 

I'm confident that everyone will like most of it and I may even get B35 to change his mind about routing the SBS to Sheepshead Bay Station after he reads my rationale.

 

I just got through telling BrooklynIRT this.... the only way I'd support the B44 to sheepshead subway, is if the MTA were to actually (stupidly, IMO) consider splitting the 44 at the junction.... anything else, forget it.....

 

 

Because if they're going to the subway, the circuitousness of the route doesn't make a difference.

 

And in any case, if the route has good ridership, there's nothing saying ridership can't be better. If the B4 provides faster service to places like Sheepshead Bay Hospital (plus, I'm sure you could increase ridership going towards that part of Brooklyn you described as more car-oriented as well). I mean, BrooklynIRT said there were times when he could've taken the B4 within Sheepshead Bay, but it wasn't worth it with all the maneuvers it had to do.

 

I said the circuitousness of the B4 wasn't a problem, and you're telling me it doesn't make a difference if folks are going to the subway????

Why would you even say that if I never denoted the circuitousness as being a problem.....

 

...as for that 2nd paragraph, you & these devil's advocate arguments.... fam, I have no idea what you're rambling about there..... ridership can't be better for what route - the reverted B4, or the B36 you're talking about sending down in that same area of sheepshead the B4 used to serve full time? Do you really think if they brought the B4 back to sheepshead full time, that ridership would be better along Bay Ridge Pkwy?

 

Champ, Bay ridge pkwy riders generally don't ride past CI hospital to the south/east & 5th av to the north/west....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

To everyone:

 

I was up to 4 in the morning last night polishing up my pieces for Sheepshead Bites tomorrow, Tuesday and Wednesday. And that was after I thought everything was all complete. Just when I was putting on the final touches, I thought of a great idea and had to redo some parts. I believe these are the most important pieces I have written because it shows the opportunity to make real productive changes. When I finished, I felt like I just completed a jigsaw puzzle. That is what I like so much about bus route planning. I'm confident that everyone will like most of it and I may even get B35 to change his mind about routing the SBS to Sheepshead Bay Station after he reads my rationale.

 

I used Mysterious2train's blank bus map to draw the routes which will be revealed on Tuesday with explanations on Tuesday and Wednesday. Hopefully people will want to discuss it at Thursday's forum. And Garibaldi, pease do bring up the BM3. I also intend to mention the D stopping at DeKalb on weekends if no one else brings it up. This forum is definitely not just about the B4. I'm very anxious to hear everyone's opinions, but don't want to give any spoilers now. I will just say there are some ideas I do not think have been discussed before. Hope to see you on Thursday and please introduce yourself.

 

 

Glad you mentioned it was Thursday... I was thinking it was Friday... I hope I can get there by 19:30 if not earlier, but that will depend on traffic, etc. I want to be there by 19:00 but we'll see.

[Interested Rider]

I was going to respond earlier but decided to wait and I appreciate the views of the other forum members concerning this subject.

 

First of all my apologies to Via Garibaldi as I was not aware that the BM3 was cut so severely on Saturday. On one hand the MTA is complaining and on the other hand, the buses are running empty to Manhattan.They claim they need revenue and this would be an opportunity for additional revenue.that they need My apologies to Brooklyn IRT concerning my suggestion for looping the B/44 to the Sheepshead Bay Station. As one who remembers how many times the bus drivers did not want to drive the loop to where I worked (now closed) on Staten Island, I should have known better.

 

I would like to reprise some bus history of the B/4 and the portion of the B/21 Brighton Beach Avenue which was incorporated into the route of B/4. The B/21 ran from Mackenzie Street via Oriental Boulevard, Brighton Beach Avenue, Ocean Parkway, Avenue Z,Sheepshead Bay Road, Emmons Avenue to Coyle Street. This route was divided up in November 1978 among three different routes: the present B/1,B/36 and the B/4. The segment of interest is the portion from Sheepshead Bay Road east. Concentrating on this segment only, a short run to Knapp Street beginning at the Sheepshead Bay Station replacing the B/4 and running on the pre-2010 schedule would be practicable similar to the B/74 and meet the needs of the residents in the area. I agree with the members that the B/4 is way too long and there is no reason for bus bunching on a route which has very little traffic. The B/4 passenger load is virtually non-existent from the station to Bay Parkway which B35 and myself have correctly pointed out in this thread. The B/4 may be better off as the B/4 terminating at 25th & Harway Avenue as it was prior to November 1978..

 

The problem is that the MTA does not like short routes and the attitude seems to be to get rid of them even though a route such as this may be more efficent and have a higher revenue/passenger ratio as compared with longer routes. Other than the B/74 can anyone think of any other route that is this short. and is still operating as a separate route? The problem here (and I am just as guilty as the MTA) is we think large when smaller is better.

 

In closing, I would like to answer the Brooklyn IRT's question about the B/36 short turns to/from Sheepshead Bay Station. The AM runs I know existed for many years and I am unsure of the date that they stopped (I am only speculating but it could be the 1990's). There was service in the PM from the station as well to Avenue U and the dispatcher at the station was in charge of those runs (I do not think that they were on the schedule) and were discontinued as well.

[BrooklynIRT]

No need for a mea culpa Interested Rider. Thanks for the B36 information. Not sure which B44 loop you are referring to; the loop I was going on about was the pre-2010 B4 loop via Sheepshead Bay station. But that is water under the bridge and I have no further comments about that. Actually it is funny that you mentioned it being annoying for bus operators to do loops. I mean driving the bus is their job regardless of where they have to go with the bus, but I do agree that it is annoying. I do not want to go off on a tangent, but this is one of the reasons why I prefer loop-less lines. Either way, it is water under the bridge and everybody wants the loopy B4 route, so I will let it be.

 

If you were referring to the B44 SBS (not local) to Sheepshead Bay station, I do not agree with that idea. Sending the SBS there is something I vehemently disagree with because it cuts off Plumb Beach which is much further from transportation than "Z" (and most of "Z" is within walking distance to the BMT). Sending the local there is probably not a great idea either for reasons outlined by B35 via Church.

[checkmatechamp13]

I said the circuitousness of the B4 wasn't a problem, and you're telling me it doesn't make a difference if folks are going to the subway????

Why would you even say that if I never denoted the circuitousness as being a problem.....

 

...as for that 2nd paragraph, you & these devil's advocate arguments.... fam, I have no idea what you're rambling about there..... ridership can't be better for what route - the reverted B4, or the B36 you're talking about sending down in that same area of sheepshead the B4 used to serve full time? Do you really think if they brought the B4 back to sheepshead full time, that ridership would be better along Bay Ridge Pkwy?

 

Champ, Bay ridge pkwy riders generally don't ride past CI hospital to the south/east & 5th av to the north/west....

 

I'm the one saying it's a problem. If you're only going to the subway, then the fact that the B4 has to dip back down after serving the train station makes no difference to you, but if you're riding past the subway, then it adds time to your trip.

 

As for the ridership, I was saying that it would be better for the B4 if it wasn't as circuitous (and went back to serving Knapp Street). Maybe Bay Ridge riders wouldn't go out to Sheepshead Bay, but you'd probably see at least a small increase in SHB riders going out to Bay Ridge.

 

1) First of all my apologies to Via Garibaldi as I was not aware that the BM3 was cut so severely on Saturday. On one hand the MTA is complaining and on the other hand, the buses are running empty to Manhattan.They claim they need revenue and this would be an opportunity for additional revenue.that they need My apologies to Brooklyn IRT concerning my suggestion for looping the B/44 to the Sheepshead Bay Station. As one who remembers how many times the bus drivers did not want to drive the loop to where I worked (now closed) on Staten Island, I should have known better.

 

2) The problem is that the MTA does not like short routes and the attitude seems to be to get rid of them even though a route such as this may be more efficent and have a higher revenue/passenger ratio as compared with longer routes. Other than the B/74 can anyone think of any other route that is this short. and is still operating as a separate route? The problem here (and I am just as guilty as the MTA) is we think large when smaller is better.

 

 

1) I don't know how often you rode the North Shore routes, but I've seen S62s bypass the CSI loop as well.

 

But I don't know what you mean by looping the B44 to the SHB station? Would you have the runs go first to the station and then to Knapp Street, or would you have them terminate at the station? If it's the first one, it's not a bad idea.

 

2) All of the Manhattan crosstowns are short and efficient (short and sweet. ), but I doubt you're referring to those. The B42 gets good ridership. I guess the B2/B100 would qualify during rush hour (the B2 used to run every 2 minutes during rush hour according to BrooklynBus, and the B100 still runs every 5 minutes during rush hour).

[B35 via Church]

The B/4 passenger load is virtually non-existent from the station to Bay Parkway which B35 and myself have correctly pointed out in this thread. The B/4 may be better off as the B/4 terminating at 25th & Harway Avenue as it was prior to November 1978..

 

The problem is that the MTA does not like short routes and the attitude seems to be to get rid of them even though a route such as this may be more efficent and have a higher revenue/passenger ratio as compared with longer routes.

 

That's true, if you don't get a sizable amt. of ppl. on the NB/WB B4 @ CI hospital itself, ridership doesn't really pick up until it turns off stillwell.... Funny how all the ridership at Av X on the all goes to the B1 - when the B4 is actually quicker b/w that subway station & CI hosp..... that alone tells you how bad service is on the 4, where riders would rather jam onto a slower B1 b/w that stint....

 

as far suggesting the B4 be moved back to the depot.... some co-incidence, b/c I suggested that same routing in another thread (as well as sending it down to stillwell/surf (via cropsey)).... although I gave it another nomenclature/route number..... guess I'm not alone w/ that basic mindset then.....

 

 

I do not want to go off on a tangent, but this is one of the reasons why I prefer loop-less lines.

I support a route that loops around somewhere, only if it benefits the greater good....

An urban or a suburban route.....

 

 

I'm the one saying it's a problem. If you're only going to the subway, then the fact that the B4 has to dip back down after serving the train station makes no difference to you, but if you're riding past the subway, then it adds time to your trip.

 

As for the ridership, I was saying that it would be better for the B4 if it wasn't as circuitous (and went back to serving Knapp Street). Maybe Bay Ridge riders wouldn't go out to Sheepshead Bay, but you'd probably see at least a small increase in SHB riders going out to Bay Ridge.

 

You made that very first statement in that last reply @ me like you were directly answering something I said, not portraying your point of view in all this... All you had to say is that you thought the circuitousness was a problem; that could've easily been avoided.... I'm not addressing this any further b/c it's obvious it adds time to your trip.... like, who's stating otherwise?

 

the second portion of this here..... Getting rid of the circuitousness or whatever won't yield no small increase because the riders don't want bay ridge parkway.... that, and the original service levels of the route weren't that great..... I don't know what it is about that you're refusing to understand and/or consider..... You are pulling on something that defines the minority & trying to make it more significant than what it is..... The circuitous routing being such this problem would've been addressed long before the B4 got truncated, if Sheepshead patrons (and Bay Ridge patrons, for the matter) felt that way.....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

That's true, if you don't get a sizable amt. of ppl. on the NB/WB B4 @ CI hospital itself, ridership doesn't really pick up until it turns off stillwell.... Funny how all the ridership at Av X on the all goes to the B1 - when the B4 is actually quicker b/w that subway station & CI hosp..... that alone tells you how bad service is on the 4, where riders would rather jam onto a slower B1 b/w that stint....

 

Yeah by Gravesend... Forget it... The B4 is an afterthought over there for the reason you mentioned. I used to use the B4 because I had a friend that lived near Gravesend, but God that bus took FOREVER. The bus could always have more ridership, but the service is just terrible. It is bad enough to wait 15-20 minutes for each B4, but then you have the bus go MIA or come late and that becomes 40 - 45 minutes, so compared to the B1 which ran MUCH better, it is an easy choice for most.

 

You made that very first statement in that last reply @ me like you were directly answering something I said, not portraying your point of view in all this... All you had to say is that you thought the circuitousness was a problem; that could've easily been avoided.... I'm not addressing this any further b/c it's obvious it adds time to your trip.... like, who's stating otherwise?

 

the second portion of this here..... Getting rid of the circuitousness or whatever won't yield no small increase because the riders don't want bay ridge parkway.... that, and the original service levels of the route weren't that great..... I don't know what it is about that you're refusing to understand and/or consider..... You are pulling on something that defines the minority & trying to make it more significant than what it is..... The circuitous routing being such this problem would've been addressed long before the B4 got truncated, if Sheepshead patrons (and Bay Ridge patrons, for the matter) felt that way.....

 

 

He's something... One minute he claims that transit should consider the masses overall, but then he makes a stink like this. Like I said, the B4 isn't just about the subway, but also about the shopping area that folks want to get to using the B4 and as I keep saying there were many elderly folks that used the B4 to do shopping and such.

[checkmatechamp13]

He's something... One minute he claims that transit should consider the masses overall, but then he makes a stink like this. Like I said, the B4 isn't just about the subway, but also about the shopping area that folks want to get to using the B4 and as I keep saying there were many elderly folks that used the B4 to do shopping and such.

 

 

And that's why I suggested sending the B36 over there. If you want the subway, take the B4 or B36 (which is more than you had before 2010). If you want the shopping, then stay on the B36. From what I've read on other posts, most B36 riders coming from the station get off along Avenue Z, so it doesn't make much of a difference either way.

 

But that was before B35 mentioned that there weren't a whole lot of people seeking service to points all the way in Bay Ridge or Bensonhurst. Now that he mentioned it, well I still don't see the harm in implementing my plan, unless there are a lot of B36 riders along the northern part of Nostrand Avenue (of course, northern meaning between Avenue U and Avenue Z)

[B35 via Church]

And that's why I suggested sending the B36 over there. If you want the subway, take the B4 or B36 (which is more than you had before 2010). If you want the shopping, then stay on the B36. From what I've read on other posts, most B36 riders coming from the station get off along Avenue Z, so it doesn't make much of a difference either way.

 

But that was before B35 mentioned that there weren't a whole lot of people seeking service to points all the way in Bay Ridge or Bensonhurst. Now that he mentioned it, well I still don't see the harm in implementing my plan, unless there are a lot of B36 riders along the northern part of Nostrand Avenue (of course, northern meaning between Avenue U and Avenue Z)

 

See, that's just it....

 

B36's heading towards the subway from it's NB terminal fills up before it even turns onto av Z, nevermind the Av. Z riders themselves.... sure enough, a good chunk of these folks come off 44's... but I'd say there are slightly more B36 riders that use it in that direction that aren't coming off the 44, compared to those who are....

 

B36's heading towards Av. U (from sheepshead subway), yes, that ridership tends to die out after it turns onto nostrand b/c residents are disembarking along av Z....

 

If you're on an Av U bound 36, it makes sense to get off at nostrand/av Z if you need the 44, as opposed to riding it out to the last stop... your chances of a seat are greater.... same deal for if you're attempting to board a CI bound 36... you're not gonna wanna ride the 44 to av Z).... Come to think of it, of all the B36 stops on nostrand av, the Av Z stop sees the least usage - CI bound I'm talking about...

[Interested Rider]

Many thanks for everyone's responses to my statements in this thread. I woould like to clarify some of my statements for the members and to provide further information as to other points

 

Checkmatechamp13 thought that my reference to a Staten Island bus loop was on the North Shore. Even though I am quite familiar with the North Shore having worked at the college from 1975 through 1979, it was not the S/53 via the college. It was a reference to the S/74 loop into the Arthur Kill Correctional Facility which ended in December 2011. BrooklynIRT's statement that the bus drivers are required to follow the route makes me think back to all the times a white car appeared in the facility parking lot monitoring the S/74 (and later S/55) coming and going to the facility. This occurred on a fairly regular basis and was in response to complaints from facility staff.

 

To clairfy my point on The B/44 route to the Sheepshead Bay Station, the route would follow its esiting route and instead of turning from Emmons into Nostrand, it would proceed along Emmons to the Station. Coming from the Station it would follow the existing B/4 route back to the Station, it would turn on Nostrand after proceeding to Knapp Street and returning via Emmons.

 

I had a memory lapse as I forgot about the Manhattan crosstown routes and the B/42, all of which are short routes. Again thank you for correcting me on this matter.

 

The B/4 service on Avenue Z was added in November 1978 and has never been heavily used. When the original B/1 was in operation to Manhattan Beach (From 25th Avenue via 86th Street, AvenueX East 14th Street, (return on East 13th Street), Sheepshead Bay Road, Emmons Avenue, West End Avenue and Oriental Boulevard, there was no service on Avenue Z and people used to walk to Avenue Z. This has not changed since that time. For the record the B/1 had a 20 minute headway with 10 minute headways during the summer.

 

I must offer some history about the Nostrand Avenue Service south of Avenue U. Service to Emmons Avenue began in the 1970's. Prior to that time, it was just the B/36 operating on Nostrand Avenue to Avenue Z. When service began to Emmons Avenue, the service pattern was similiar to what it is today with not all the buses going to Emmons Avenue. Therefore it was better to transfer to the B/44 at Avenue U, which is still applicable today. My thanks to B/35 for his insight on this subject.

 

Let me ask one final question of the forum. Has anyone updated the New York City Bus histories that were written in the late 1960's that appeared in Motor Caoch Age which provide details as to routes and the history? These are msssing in most libraries and they are the definitive history on the development of bus service in New York City. I would be interested in updating the articles as there is a need for this information to be available for everyone concerned about transportation.

[BrooklynIRT]

I understand your B44 loop and it is actually something I was thinking of myself. Southbound buses would operate via Nostrand, Shore Pkwy Service Rd South, Knapp, Emmons, and either Ocean and "Z" or just Sheepshead Bay Rd. Maybe even have it terminate at CI hospital since Sheepshead Bay station is not a good place to terminate a bus route, although it sounds like B35 does not want anything going anywhere near Sheepshead Bay station (I sorta do not blame him) unless it absolutely has to because of the narrow streets. Anyway the northbound buses would operate via "Z" and Ocean or just Sheepshead Bay Rd, and then Shore Pkwy Service Rd South, Knapp, Emmons, Nostrand, and head back up north.

 

But again this is getting into "super-routes," which B35 is not a fan of. I generally do not oppose so-called super-routes as vehemently as he does, but this particular B44 to Sheepshead Bay station is not quite up to par in my book because it duplicates the B4. On the other hand it may not be a bad idea to incorporate the old B21 into the B44 by sending the B44 to Kingsborough Community College via Shore Pkwy/Knapp St/Emmons/West End/Oriental, southbound. Northbound via Oriental/West End/Emmons/Ocean/Shore Pkwy/Knapp/Emmons/Nostrand. Or the B44 could be sent to Brighton Beach Ave via the same Plumb Beach loop I described. These are all just possibilities; I am not 100% sure they should be carried out because they might lead to more reliability issues with the B44, even after SBS comes. I still think my preference is to just terminate the B44SBS at Knapp (Plumb Beach must be served by the SBS *any* way you cut it) and most likely terminate the B44 local at "X" or "Z", with "Z" being added as a SBS stop if and only if it does not cause SBS buses to miss more green signals than they would if "Z" were not a stop.

 

The whole thing with bus operators being required to follow loopy routes is something that some bus operators will make a big stink about, because of the nature of the job and the conditions they are subject to. And of course you have those who feel bitter when supervisors show up to ensure that they are doing their jobs. Getting into this sort of thing just leads me to ask "what is the meaning of life?" and then trying to reason these things out such that they make some kind of sense. That is neither here nor there. If driving loopy/circuitous routes bothers a bus operator so much, then the bus operator can simply pick an assignment on a straight route at the next available opportunity and not be bothered with circuitous/loopy ones again. Or, s/he can pick an assignment on a SBS line so s/he does not have to deal with fareboxes and interacting with the public (which gets annoying after a while) and people asking for free rides and people running for buses and long lines of people boarding and waiting several minutes at bus stops for people to board and confusion and so on and so forth. Anyway...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

And that's why I suggested sending the B36 over there. If you want the subway, take the B4 or B36 (which is more than you had before 2010). If you want the shopping, then stay on the B36. From what I've read on other posts, most B36 riders coming from the station get off along Avenue Z, so it doesn't make much of a difference either way.

 

Reading posts and using the route are two different things... I've used the B4 for YEARS to and from Sheepshead Bay and to and from Bay Ridge as well. If they just had the damn buses come at the times they are scheduled there would be more ridership. I've said it a gazillion times... There was nothing wrong with the route aside from it being MIA and coming whenever it wanted. Furthermore, where else are B36 riders supposed to get off at aside from along Avenue Z in Sheepshead Bay??

[checkmatechamp13]

Checkmatechamp13 thought that my reference to a Staten Island bus loop was on the North Shore. Even though I am quite familiar with the North Shore having worked at the college from 1975 through 1979, it was not the S/53 via the college. It was a reference to the S/74 loop into the Arthur Kill Correctional Facility which ended in December 2011. BrooklynIRT's statement that the bus drivers are required to follow the route makes me think back to all the times a white car appeared in the facility parking lot monitoring the S/74 (and later S/55) coming and going to the facility. This occurred on a fairly regular basis and was in response to complaints from facility staff.

 

To clairfy my point on The B/44 route to the Sheepshead Bay Station, the route would follow its esiting route and instead of turning from Emmons into Nostrand, it would proceed along Emmons to the Station. Coming from the Station it would follow the existing B/4 route back to the Station, it would turn on Nostrand after proceeding to Knapp Street and returning via Emmons.

 

I had a memory lapse as I forgot about the Manhattan crosstown routes and the B/42, all of which are short routes. Again thank you for correcting me on this matter.

 

I must offer some history about the Nostrand Avenue Service south of Avenue U. Service to Emmons Avenue began in the 1970's. Prior to that time, it was just the B/36 operating on Nostrand Avenue to Avenue Z. When service began to Emmons Avenue, the service pattern was similiar to what it is today with not all the buses going to Emmons Avenue. Therefore it was better to transfer to the B/44 at Avenue U, which is still applicable today. My thanks to B/35 for his insight on this subject.

 

 

I knew that. You mentioned before that you worked at the Correctional Facility in the thread where we were talking about its closing. I was just saying that drivers bypassing loops happens on other parts of SI as well. That's why Iphrased it the way I did: "I've seen S62s bypass the CSI loop as well."

 

In any case, looking at the B44 proposal, I don't think that's a good idea. Either send it straight to the station or to Knapp Street, but don't have one bus serving both.

 

As for the 1970s, I found a map that shows the B44 operating to Emmons Avenue, but apparently the whole thing was a part-time route: http://images.nycsubway.org/maps/bus-bklyn-si1969-bck-2m.jpg

 

That must be some kind of error on the part of the mapmakers, because I highly doubt routes like the B44 and B46 ran part-time.

 

Reading posts and using the route are two different things... I've used the B4 for YEARS to and from Sheepshead Bay and to and from Bay Ridge as well. If they just had the damn buses come at the times they are scheduled there would be more ridership. I've said it a gazillion times... There was nothing wrong with the route aside from it being MIA and coming whenever it wanted. Furthermore, where else are B36 riders supposed to get off at aside from along Avenue Z in Sheepshead Bay??

 

 

Yeah, and maybe it would get even more ridership if buses came on time and followed a more direct path.

 

As for the B36 riders, I don't see what you're saying. If riders are coming from the subway and going east, they would be able to take the B44 instead of the B36 (hell, for that matter, reroute all B44 locals to the station and just add an +SBS+ stop at Avenue Z). If they're coming from Coney Island, they could transfer at the Sheepshead Bay station for the B44, and if they're coming from further north along Nostrand Avenue, they could transfer to the B36 at the station instead of along Nostrand Avenue.

 

And if there is a problem with all the buses terminating at the station, then they could be sent to CI Hospital or Kingsborough or something (well, maybe not Kingsborough because then it would give them an excuse to reduce the B49).

 

Like BrooklynIRT said (and IIRC, he used to live there), the B4 has more potential if it connects east-west riders, and leaves serving the subway for other routes. The B44 +SBS+ can connect riders to the IRT fairly quickly, and the B36 can connect them to the BMT (and serve the shooping by SHB Road). The B4 can serve the subway, but that wouldn't be its primary focus, so it would use the back entrance.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Yeah, and maybe it would get even more ridership if buses came on time and followed a more direct path.

 

As for the B36 riders, I don't see what you're saying. If riders are coming from the subway and going east, they would be able to take the B44 instead of the B36 (hell, for that matter, reroute all B44 locals to the station and just add an +SBS+ stop at Avenue Z). If they're coming from Coney Island, they could transfer at the Sheepshead Bay station for the B44, and if they're coming from further north along Nostrand Avenue, they could transfer to the B36 at the station instead of along Nostrand Avenue.

 

And if there is a problem with all the buses terminating at the station, then they could be sent to CI Hospital or Kingsborough or something (well, maybe not Kingsborough because then it would give them an excuse to reduce the B49).

 

Like BrooklynIRT said (and IIRC, he used to live there), the B4 has more potential if it connects east-west riders, and leaves serving the subway for other routes. The B44 +SBS+ can connect riders to the IRT fairly quickly, and the B36 can connect them to the BMT (and serve the shooping by SHB Road). The B4 can serve the subway, but that wouldn't be its primary focus, so it would use the back entrance.

 

 

For the love of God!!! You and the others with this bloody subway obsession! The B4 doesn't just serve subway riders in Sheepshead Bay. It serves folks going SHOPPING, going to the movies and so on. For example, there was a supermarket on Voorhies Avenue that it made a stop at and then you had stops along Sheepshead Bay Rd and Emmons, both of which are commercial areas. When the B4 was around businesses all along the B4 were doing better. Now you have vacant stores all over the place and vacant condos. Sheepshead Bay is suffering economically, which of course you could care less about because you're fixed on your idea of having the bus go straight, which is NOT necessary and would also make the commutes of others longer.

 

Folks would have to be stupid to purchase any sort of condo or anything down there with the lack of transportation. I seriously considered moving back to Sheepshead Bay but the lack of express bus service on the weekends and then no B4 made that decision easy. In sum, folks looking for or needing transportation go to where the transportation is and that is almost non-existent in Sheepshead Bay.

[checkmatechamp13]

Would it kill you to read what I wrote? I said the B36 would serve the people going shopping and the B4 would serve those who want to go to points further west in Brooklyn, as well as those who don't mind the stairs going to the back of the station. Everybody's covered.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Would it kill you to read what I wrote? I said the B36 would serve the people going shopping and the B4 would serve those who want to go to points further west in Brooklyn, as well as those who don't mind the stairs going to the back of the station. Everybody's covered.

 

 

I don't see how quite frankly... The B36 doesn't serve Voorhies nor the part of Sheepshead Bay Rd by Emmons Avenue...

[checkmatechamp13]

I don't see how quite frankly... The B36 doesn't serve Voorhies nor the part of Sheepshead Bay Rd by Emmons Avenue...

 

 

Reading is fundamental. That's why I'd reroute the B44 over Avenue Z (and leave Plumb Beach served by the +SBS+) and have it serve the train station, and then reroute the B36 to Knapp Street. Emmons Avenue gets extra service, Avenue Z riders get more reliable service (since they don't have buses coming all the way from Coney Island, and aside from that, service would be more frequent than the B36 anyway), and you have your fast east-west route (B4) and the route to serve everybody going shopping (B36)

[BrooklynBus]

As for the 1970s, I found a map that shows the B44 operating to Emmons Avenue, but apparently the whole thing was a part-time route: http://images.nycsub...1969-bck-2m.jpg

 

That must be some kind of error on the part of the mapmakers, because I highly doubt routes like the B44 and B46 ran part-time.

 

 

 

 

It may not be an error. The B44 originally operated only to Avenue U. When it was extended to Emmons and Knapp, it may have initially only ran there part-time, i.e. Mon-Fri)

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Reading is fundamental. That's why I'd reroute the B44 over Avenue Z (and leave Plumb Beach served by the +SBS+) and have it serve the train station, and then reroute the B36 to Knapp Street. Emmons Avenue gets extra service, Avenue Z riders get more reliable service (since they don't have buses coming all the way from Coney Island, and aside from that, service would be more frequent than the B36 anyway), and you have your fast east-west route (B4) and the route to serve everybody going shopping (B36)

 

 

Well my point was I don't want anything re-routed, period.

[checkmatechamp13]

It may not be an error. The B44 originally operated only to Avenue U. When it was extended to Emmons and Knapp, it may have initially only ran there part-time, i.e. Mon-Fri)

 

 

No, but it has the entire route running part time. The same for the B46, B64, B34 (old B1 in Bay Ridge), and a bunch of other routes.

[BrooklynBus]

No, but it has the entire route running part time. The same for the B46, B64, B34 (old B1 in Bay Ridge), and a bunch of other routes.

 

 

Can't locate my map now, but why would you think those routes ran part-time? If it was because they are portrayed in a dashed line, that did not mean part-time service. Since only four colors were used instead of five, some routes used a dashed line to improve clarity on the map. That's all it meant. There was no refernce to service.