shiznit1987

The MTA will never do such a thing. It's a nice thought, but budget realities means that if the both go to the same places then only one will suffice overnights (and weekends for that matter, hence Lex's point). The MTA will continue to run only the and into Brooklyn overnight as long as there are only two branches to serve. As far was weekends are concerned, the current pattern is already the best and pretty generous to boot seeing as the MTA could try to get away w/ having the go local after Franklin and take over New Lots.

I'm not sure how the would mess w/ the seeing as the doesn't. The both would clear Rogers w/o even touching the path of the

Sending the 3 to Flatbush *would* kill the chance of off peak service, since now the pretty much run the same route. The best of both worlds is to leave both the and alone and run the to Utica. Some s will be extended to New Lots to balance the load.

To be fair, this sounds like the issue is trusting the MTA to maintain proper IRT service into Brooklyn in off peak hours. From my vantage point, if the MTA was going to cut the to a peak only line it would have done so by now. If the MTA could be bowed to have the overnight what makes you think they can get away with cutting it from Brooklyn? I think wither the Utica Ave line gets built or not, the sweet spot for off-peak Brooklyn IRT service has been found in the current pattern. I'd love to see the run to BK full time but that probably won't happen.

TBH, having Nostrand riders transfer @ Franklin isn't the end of the world. If the issue is Central Brooklyn riders wanting trains then shouldn't the name of the game be putting in operational patterns designed to make that happen?

Knowing the MTA, they'd try to get away with having the be the sole Utica line with service staying the same. The probably would go 24/7 to Brooklyn.

Maybe there is something I'm missing here, but in my mind the solution to Rogers has always been this: Local to Flatbush (18tph) Local to New Lots (12tph) Express to Utica (12tph), Express to New Lots (6tph) Express to Utica (12tph) In terms of terminal capacity, New Lots and Flatbush both turn out 18tph, while Utica turns out 24tph. I don't know if Utica can handle this amount, but in the end I think this represents a nice mix with none of the three Brooklyn terminals getting overloaded and both the Nostrand and New Lots branches getting 18tph. In terms of service across the IRT, this boosts service along WPR/South Bronx and gives a nice service boost to the Jerome Ave line to help a very densely populated section of the Bronx. The still serves it's purpose as a Harlem/UWS relief line and gives it a reason to exist 7 days a week as the main New Lots service. In the future, if the Utica Ave line gets built, I would send both the and there full time since one of the Lex trains would need to take the brunt of the transfers @ Utica/EP and Franklin Av. A 4-track 179st-style terminal can be built @ KP to allow for maximum turnaround throughput. Edit: I'll keep the express in The Bronx

Why not just extend the Q59?

Speaking of a 50th St Crosstown: The should be relocated to a two-level two track/island platform tunnel under 50th st which would give it 4 tracks. The line would turn up 1st Ave then cross the river @ 59th st. The north side of QBP will be rebuilt and two express tracks will be build on top of the existing el. After 111st, the line will follow the current Corona Yard approaches and stop at a new Willets Pt station overtop the current Shea LIRR. The line then follows the LIRR into Flushing with a two level terminus overtop the Flushing LIRR stop. The current alignment through LIC and 42nd st will be given to the Astoria line to become it's own self contained line called the (8).

I think you can get away with having the be the QB Express if you build the connection between 63/Lex and 59/Lex. That allows the to be the QB Local and the to run 30tph to Astoria as the sole Broadway Local ( sent to SAS) should become full time CPW express to 207th with non-weekday service going to Prospect Park. are the CPW/8th locals from 168th.

Astoria Blvd is already perfectly set up as a turnaround point. For one, it means everyone except Ditmars gets full service, including 30th Ave. Ditmars is the huge capacity limiter on the line, it barley is able to turn what stops there now, nevermind any service increase.

Real missed opportunity not putting in switches to allow trains to terminate at Astoria Blvd. It's like the MTA is trying to not improve the functionality of the underlying system.

I'd rather see light rail up Woodhaven-63rd Drive-Junction Blvd between Rockaway Park and LGA than a subway down RRB. But, if we insist on it, here's food for thought: Astoria-Whitehall via Broadway Local Current Route Current Route runs from Coney Island to Rockaway Park via Sea Beach -> Man Bridge -> Broadway Exp -> 63st -> QB Bypass -> RRB This doesn't mess up QB and also uses the excess capacity of 63rd st.

One potential middle ground would be to put vestibule sheathing ala LIRR between the gangways and remove the end doors.

Someone sadly died on the Q up on 2nd Ave walking between cars. The unfortunate reality is people are going to do what they want to do when it comes to things like that. If it gets any worse then locked cars here we come...

It's usually better Manhattan bound than Queens bound which makes no sense considering you have to watch for merging s. Sometimes the has to wait for the mid-station signal to clear, which is insane.

Exactly. Even going Manhattan bound if a and reach the junction at the same time you've created a delay. At least the way things are now you have zero chance of an issue Manhattan-Bound. $$$ Any plan that hinges upon either passenger or MTA Operations discipline is doomed to fail. It's not that your planning is bad, it's that the human factor will make sure everything catches fire. Even lets say the MTA somehow pulled off the / combo @ Roosevelt, passengers will wait for the behind said along with the passengers that will surely bail. That will become un-boardable and the spill over effect will reek havoc on QB. Even with a best case scenario of passengers switching for trains you still lose that local/express passenger balance. Yes. Sending locals through 63rd st means anyone wanting the East Side is forced onto the which is the last thing needed.

We will agree to disagree on 36st. Don't get me wrong, it's it the worst switch in the system? Not even close. But I ride the almost every working day Queens-Bound and we almost *never* fail to wait for an coming up the ramp (And the behind him never fails to have to wait for the behind us). In a perfect world, a basic merge procedure like what you're talking about would be a non-issue, but I have lost most confidence in the ability of MTA Ops to not let this become a breakpoint. When you've had a train stop for "train traffic ahead" at 15 min headways you don't take anything for granted. As for sending QB Locals down 63rd st, here's something to consider: Getting on at 65th St in the morning, the is standing room only 80-85% of the time. The , while not nearly as crowded, has a healthy amount of people on it too. These are folks who rode from as far as 67th Ave who are choosing to stay local rather than blast the at Roosevelt. If you make the QB Local more inconvenient for them, they'll bail for the and it'll be like the 2001 service changes never happened (This is why I compared it to bringing back the ) The most definitely pulls it's weight in keeping the from becoming slammed. In your scenario, there's zero incentive to stay on the local since the is just a local and the will be downright pointless for most. Roosevelt will become downright dangerous during rush hours (As an aside, Woodhaven needs to be made an express stop). I understand where you and LGA are coming from. If we're going to simplify service patterns, then for QB we need to keep loading habits in mind. It's not like the Upper Manhattan IND where people are just looking for the express no matter what ave it's going down.

With regards to Washington Heights, anyone riding above 125st will most certainly be bailing for the Trains. If for anything, this is a big boon for Upper Manhattan as 6th Ave > 8th Ave. CPW riders between 125th and 59th get a dedicated line that doesn't go to Brooklyn, reducing delays and making service more consistent. As far as the issue with Queens Blvd is concerned, can we survive without the ? Yes. But there has to be some kind of payoff to make it worth it. Splitting 6th/63st and 8th/53st into express and local still keeps the 36st merge as an issue (times 2, since now you have merges onto express and local) plus whatever QB Local that goes into 63st will be a ridership hole, causing the to be even more crowded. The thing with the is that people between 71st and Roosevelt are willing to ride it all the way into Manhattan for the benefit of the transfer or for being on Broadway. Take those benefits away and you'll have even more people bailing at Roosevelt, which is already dangerously crowded. To me, if we're going to lose the , then at minimum the connection between 63rd and 59th needs to be built. Have Expresses go down 63rd and Locals down 53rd. There's no way any QB Local should be going down 63rd street. That's only a half-step above bringing back the (which granted, I would like back on weekends)

Just to piggyback on this: If for anything, ESA should've gone whole hog and moved all LIRR operations to Grand Central. The new terminal should've then continued down Park as two tracks and then take over the existing tunnels 3 & 4 under the east river, thus giving the LIRR a WTC-esque loop under the east side of Manhattan. The freed up space @ Penn coupled with two new Hudson tubes would have given NJT all the space it'd need for expansion for 100 years.

People (Including myself) aren't going to be too pleased about losing service on Queens Blvd. It's actually IMHO tied with the for being the second favorite on QB after the . No one will ride a local that goes through 63rd st. Also, this doesn't really solve the 36st issue. It's a nice thought though. If we're going to go for De-interlining Queens, then we need to simply bite the bullet a build an underground transfer from 63rd/Lex to 59th/Lex so everything flows like this: 63 st/QB Express 53 st/QB Local -> 8th Ave Express/Brooklyn 168 st to WTC 8th Ave Local 207st to Brighton Beach via CPW/6th Ave Exp Current route To SAS via Broadway Express + Bridge Astoria/Broadway Local WIth the exception of the and joining at 145st, the entire B divison is completely merge-less going Bronx/Queens Bound.

Between 5th and 3rd Aves though.

IMHO, are we really sure that Phases 3 and 4 are even a good idea? Where I'm coming from is that 2nd Ave below 63rd St is *not* really part of the East Midtown CBD. 2nd and 1st Aves are pretty much pure residential all the way down Manhattan, and if we're going to spend multi-billions on subway extensions it really should be either 1) Expanding capacity into Core Midtown or 2) serving transit deserts like 3rd Ave (Bronx) or Utica Av. My fear is everyone is drawing up plans for QB 2nd Ave services that to be honest I don't think anyone is going to really want to use (I live along QB BTW). People want anything between 8th and 3rd Aves and a lower SAS is at best convenient to 3rd Ave offices which already have decent subway access. I know some advance the argument that the city will somehow upzone or adjust Far East Midtown to become another office district but I doubt that's going to happen. The reality is that 1) That area is really well heeled and 2) with the general anti-development mindset of many city leaders I doubt the political will is there to have 2nd Ave morph into a business zone. Long story short, I think we are making a very big assumption that the SAS below 63rd st will be as big of a hit as the Uptown/Bronx section, and I personally don't see it.

This may be cheating, but earlier there was discussion on how to de-interline the Upper IND (Concourse/CPW/Inwood) and my proposal runs like this: Just below 50st/8th Ave, build a switch between the upper level Local track and the Express Track to allow 8th Ave Express Trains to serve 50th St. All trains will slide over to the local track, stopping at 50th St Upper Level ( service is unaffected). The and will both continue up the CPW Local tracks to 168st, while the and will take over the CPW Express. Overall, the service pattern would look like this: 168st-Wash Hts to Mott Av-Far Rock or Lefferts Blvd-Ozone Park via CPW Local, 8th Ave Express, Fulton Express (All Times, Local late nights) 207th St-Inwood to Brighton Beach via CPW Express, 6th Ave Express, Manhattan Bridge, Brighton Express. Cut back to Prospect Park during weekends and overnights (after 10pm) Current routing and schedule. Current routing and schedule. Yes, this technically requires a switch instillation, but in the grand scheme of things this untangles the upper IND a great deal. Wash Heights and Inwood get direct 6th ave express service, the gets shortened somewhat, and CPW has a boost in service. Oh...and Brighton riders get their 6th Ave service back.

For me, this is my take on the situation: Q66 and Q69 should be made SBS and routed into Manhattan down 57st to Columbus Circle. Q69 should be extended down Astoria Blvd to Flushing to replace Q19 service. Q88 should stay on Horace Harding to Little Neck Parkway. Q30 runs new route where it runs up Homelawn St/Utopia Pkwy, then turns down 73rd Ave to Bell Blvd, then heads straight up Bell to Bay Terrace. Q31 continues straight up Utopia Pkwy to Cross Island Expressway. Runs down Cross Island/14 ave, turns onto Parsons, then turns onto 20th Ave to serve the College Point shopping center. Q16 is split into two routes: Q14 runs down Bayside Ave/29 Av to Utopia. Runs up Utopia then follows Cross Island to Ft Totten. Q16 runs further up Union st to Willets Pt Blvd then runs along Willets Pt Blvd and Cross Island to Ft Totten These are just a few off the top of my head.