Increasing the (L)'s Terminal Capacity

[R32 3348]

As some of you may know, the suffers from inefficient terminals that do not allow the trains to turn around quickly enough to provide more service. After thinking about this problem, I looked at the track map, and focused on the terminal at Rockaway Parkway.

 

When I saw the track configuration I wondered if this terminal problem could be fixed easily, by making the Y-crossover north of RP an X-crossover. This would allow trains to enter the station more quickly and increase the line's TPH with relative ease. Is there any reason why this hasn't been done yet?

[Y2Julio]

What problems? Rockaway parkway is no different than many two track terminals out there. I've been riding the on a daily basis for the past 5 years and I'm very satisfied with the level of service.

[R32 3348]

When CBTC was put on the , the level of service wasn't able to rise as much as it could have because of the distance of the switch from the Rockaway Parkway terminal. Unlike most terminals (like 8th Ave.) where the switch is right before the station, the switch here is right after E. 105th St., instead of Canarsie. That means trains take longer to cross the switch and enter the terminal, and leave again; thus lowering maximum TPH. I'm not saying service is bad - I'm wondering if the service can be made even better if this terminal can be improved.

[Pu3rToRoCk8947]

What problems? Rockaway parkway is no different than many two track terminals out there. I've been riding the on a daily basis for the past 5 years and I'm very satisfied with the level of service.

Y2Julio you are right.Rockaway Parkway Station terminal is perfectly fine as it is now,although some trains do end at the Broadway-Junction stop and turn back to Manhattan on Weekdays,the current level of service is good.I don't know if more trains can be put in now but in the meantime the Myrtle Avenue Station on the does have a middle track and can be used as a turn back for some trains if i'm not mistaken.Does anybody know if they even use that track at all?

[Jah]

Y2Julio you are right.Rockaway Parkway Station terminal is perfectly fine as it is now,although some trains do end at the Broadway-Junction stop and turn back to Manhattan on Weekdays,the current level of service is good.I don't know if more trains can be put in now but in the meantime the Myrtle Avenue Station on the does have a middle track and can be used as a turn back for some trains if i'm not mistaken.Does anybody know if they even use that track at all?

 

The trains that terminate at Broadway junction don't turn back they lay up into either ENY or Canarsie yard.

 

CBTC is running full time for the hundreds of millions of dollars it was able to add 1 extra train during the rush.

 

The middle track at myrtle is used for G.O's, to turn trains when there is a problem ahead, and almost every night to do work train moves.

[Y2Julio]

When CBTC was put on the , the level of service wasn't able to rise as much as it could have because of the distance of the switch from the Rockaway Parkway terminal. Unlike most terminals (like 8th Ave.) where the switch is right before the station, the switch here is right after E. 105th St., instead of Canarsie. That means trains take longer to cross the switch and enter the terminal, and leave again; thus lowering maximum TPH. I'm not saying service is bad - I'm wondering if the service can be made even better if this terminal can be improved.

 

Longer by what? 20-30 seconds? Yes, let's disrupt service to decrease 20-30 secs.

[Pu3rToRoCk8947]

Oh okay,i thought Broadway Junction was another part time terminal.So i guess what we see on the line is what we are going to get now.You would have thought that the people that designed the line back then would have at least left provisions for a middle track,i guess they figured it wouldn't be necessary,oops they were wrong.It's only a matter of time before the line becomes more overstuffed to the max then it is now B)

[LRG]

Kris actually brings up a very good point. Looking at the track map, service is somewhat inadequate ONLY because of the Canarsie terminal, where the switches are a little too far from Canarsie and closer to East 105th. I'm really shocked that a switch was installed north of Broadway Junction in 2002 but the switch at Canarsie wasn't reconfigured.

 

A few seconds can save minutes in the long run, and can result in an extra train being added to increase service.

[MattTrain]

The Rockaway Parkway station can only hold two trains, and cleaning crews are working quickly to clean up the cars before the (L)'s leave. I think the is fine the way it is. Same at 8th Avenue in Manhattan.

[Y2Julio]

Please explain to me how moving the X switch north of Rockaway Parkway will increase turn around times versus it's current configuration of using the X switch south of East 105th.

[LRG]

Please explain to me how moving the X switch north of Rockaway Parkway will increase turn around times versus it's current configuration of using the X switch south of East 105th.

 

Look at how the (E)'s terminal is. The switches are so far from the terminal that the 15TPH the has during rush hours can't handle all of them; some will have to go to Jamaica-179th Street instead. This is the same case with the at Canarsie, and would probably explains why not all trains begin or end there; some have trips that start or end at Broadway Junction, Myrtle Avenue, or East 105th Street when trains leave the yard. If the switch was closer to the actual terminal, then yeah, it may save a few seconds, but all those "few" seconds that accumulate further down the road in a given day would make space for another train.

[Eric B]

Y2Julio you are right.Rockaway Parkway Station terminal is perfectly fine as it is now,although some trains do end at the Broadway-Junction stop and turn back to Manhattan on Weekdays,the current level of service is good.I don't know if more trains can be put in now but in the meantime the Myrtle Avenue Station on the does have a middle track and can be used as a turn back for some trains if i'm not mistaken.Does anybody know if they even use that track at all?

The trains that terminate at Broadway junction don't turn back they lay up into either ENY or Canarsie yard.

 

CBTC is running full time for the hundreds of millions of dollars it was able to add 1 extra train during the rush.

 

The middle track at myrtle is used for G.O's, to turn trains when there is a problem ahead, and almost every night to do work train moves.

 

Actually, the scheduled turnbacks are at Myrtle, and use the middle track, not Bway Junction. Nothing drops out there that I know of. You can't get to the yard southbound. There would be light trains coming from Canarsie that would go to Atlantic, and then enter the yard. (they really should have kept some turnback space on the old Atlantic Ave station structure, so the trains could turn back from Bway Jct instead of Myrtle, as a lot of peopl gro from Myrtle to Bway-Jct).

These turnbacks partly ease the Canarsie terminal, at the same time as providing an increase towards Manhattan.

 

A suggestion I had to ease Canarsie was to open track 3 (the first track in the yard) up to arriving layups. That way, it could discharge without tying up the terminal (which is the cause of a lot of the congestion), and make the move to the 105 spur and into the yard already out of the way of the road. Track 3 is right next to the same exit the platform uses. And there is grassy space inbetween 2 and 3 (where the fence is) that a platform could be built on. And it would be exit only (not for boarding). Track 11 also has space and an exit next to it.

 

But they rejected this, even after I suggested the approprite signal protection be added.

I also suggested easing the other terminal bty connecting the middle track at 8th Ave at both ends, to allow alternate trains to drop out at 6th Ave and relay back. They turned this down simply because of the cost of adding platform conductors!:eek:

[Grand Concourse]

Great ideas Eric. It's a shame they won't listen to you. Those ideas would be far more 'cheaper' to create than say knocking down the walls at 8th Av to extend the tracks further into the tunnel to allow the L to enter 8th Av at a 'normal' speed. And maybe even laying up a spare train or two beyond the station.

 

The trains that terminate at Broadway junction don't turn back they lay up into either ENY or Canarsie yard.

 

CBTC is running full time for the hundreds of millions of dollars it was able to add 1 extra train during the rush.

 

The middle track at myrtle is used for G.O's, to turn trains when there is a problem ahead, and almost every night to do work train moves.

 

So I take it for the millions spent to add just one train, this wasn't worth the money invested?

[Jah]

Actually, the scheduled turnbacks are at Myrtle, and use the middle track, not Bway Junction. Nothing drops out there that I know of. You can't get to the yard southbound. There would be light trains coming from Canarsie that would go to Atlantic, and then enter the yard. (they really should have kept some turnback space on the old Atlantic Ave station structure, so the trains could turn back from Bway Jct instead of Myrtle, as a lot of peopl gro from Myrtle to Bway-Jct).

 

 

Look at the work program there is not a single job that terminates at Myrtle but there are a couple that end at the junction then run light into the yard.

[LRG]

Look at the work program there is not a single job that terminates at Myrtle but there are a couple that end at the junction then run light into the yard.

 

There are some midday trains that end at Myrtle Avenue. They then relay using the middle track and head back to Manhattan.

[Jah]

There are some midday trains that end at Myrtle Avenue. They then relay using the middle track and head back to Manhattan.

 

I stand corrected the work program I had wasn't the newest one. Just checked the newest one and yes there are a few trains that now drop out at Myrtle.

[INDman]

Could it be that they are not planned and are in connection with a GO? I really have no idea since I never ride the .

[R32 3348]

Longer by what? 20-30 seconds? Yes, let's disrupt service to decrease 20-30 secs.

Please explain to me how moving the X switch north of Rockaway Parkway will increase turn around times versus it's current configuration of using the X switch south of East 105th.

I'll use Jamaica Center as an example. Because the switch is so far from the terminal, the terminal only has a 12TPH turning capacity. South Ferry is a normal (if not improved) terminal and can handle 24TPH. That's a difference of a 2.5 minute wait time and a 5 minute wait time. Getting back to the , if you're only able to add 1 TPH to the line with CBTC then the $$ is a real waste. If you can do more to increase thoroughput (installing a switch isn't even so major that it can't be done outside of weekend G.O.s) then it would make CBTC more effective on the and help to decrease crowding like the project was originally supposed to do.

[Y2Julio]

If you can do more to increase thoroughput (installing a switch isn't even so major that it can't be done outside of weekend G.O.s).

Want to come up to BERA and volunteer in their track department to see how "easy" that work is?

[INDman]

(installing a switch isn't even so major that it can't be done outside of weekend G.O.s)

 

Yea, it takes longer then 1 weekend to install a switch. Also, if they did that the whole area would need to be redone so they can put in a diamond cross over. Not only do you have to do track work, but you have to upgrade the interlocking because you need to signals to govern and protect this new cross over that you want. Signal work is very complicated and with CBTC on the , that would take a while.

[LRG]

If they were to install a new crossover, weekend GOs or none, it would take outside a month for something like that to be done.

[R32 3348]

I didn't mean it could be done in a weekend. It would be like the time they installed the switches near the 74th St. vicinity in 5 weekends, but on a smaller scale. It's not impossible, but it would still require a lot of work.

[Eric B]

Look at the work program there is not a single job that terminates at Myrtle but there are a couple that end at the junction then run light into the yard.

It's not about jobs ending at Myrtle. The jobs would all be from Canarsie (with about one starting from 8th Ave.), but select intervals that end at Myrtle.

 

If they end at the Junction, I don't know how they do that. They would have to relay south of Atlantic. Perhaps they simply skip all the stops heading to Canarsie yard. I think I've heard of them doing that. Or was this a really old work program where they still had the middle tracks at Atlantic?

[R32 3348]

According to Subchat, the Y-crossover was replaced with an X-crossover sometime during the installation of CBTC so it's a moot point anyway.

[Grand Concourse]

Damn, what a shame. Any sort of additional trackage would be benificial for the L train. I guess it comes down to extending the tracks past the 8th Av 'walls' if they wanted to speed up the turn around times for the L on the Manhattan side.