Extension of the SIR or the NYC Subway to Brooklyn or Manhattan

[Roadcruiser1]

It isn't going to Todt Hill. It will run a few blocks west of it. Though any station that exist would still be called Todt Hill regardless of it. I think that a tunnel from Manhattan and Staten Island shouldn't be built as of yet until the makes it into Lower Manhattan. When that happens the could be an express service and the would be a local. Besides I think a tunnel between Brooklyn and Staten Island would be more economical only costing 240 million dollars then spending more on a Manhattan to Staten Island route. Reactivating the North Shore Line would cost 5 million. Building a West Shore Shore line would be 280 million. Running the and the lime green to the Sea Beach Line so it could run on to the tunnel 240 million. Possible extension to LaGuardia Airport 280 million. Total cost 1.1 billion. It could cost lower. Though a tunnel between Manhattan and Staten Island could be more then 50% of the cost I am suggesting now. Plus the extension that could cost nearly 3 billion dollars. Why would the waste three billion dollars when they could waste 1 billion dollars.

[checkmatechamp13]

But I'm saying that general area wouldn't get too many riders. The S54 and S57 are some of the most inefficient routes in NYC. The only north-south corridors that need a rail line would be Richmond Avenue and the West Shore Expressway.

 

Reactivating the North Shore Line would cost much more than $5 million. The last estimate I heard was $400 million, since they have to demolish the old stations, put in new stations, and rehabilitate the section of the line east of Port Richmond (some parts literally fell into the water). It would be even more if it were extended via the West Shore Expressway.

 

Reactivating the West Shore Line would be in the area of $1 billion, not $280 million.

 

I don't know how much a tunnel to Brooklyn would cost, but my estimates placed it at around $500 million-$600 million, plus about $300 million the extend the line to Church Avenue, for a total of about $800 million-$900 million.

 

I'm not saying that it isn't worth it, but the cost is much higher than you project.

[Roadcruiser1]

Still it would be only 3 billion compared to the Manhattan one which would be about 4 or 5 billion. It is cheaper then the phase of Second Avenue.

[Roadcruiser1]

Here's my map the runs on the North Shore to Arlington. Then it runs parallel to the West Shore Highway. The runs on the SIR right of way and replaces the SIR. The pink lines are my ideas of a HBLR extension.

 

 

If you look at the map the HBLR actually acts as a Staten Island crosstown line. Creating a new transfer point between the and the .

[checkmatechamp13]

I don't think there is a whole lot of demand for crosstown service. I still feel that there are only a couple of corridors in need of rail service, and that people in the neighborhood would be able to use bus service to access the nearest rail station.

 

If there is any corridor with a need for crosstown service, it is the Staten Island Expressway corridor, not the area near the Greenbelt.

[Roadcruiser1]

I just changed the map. I realized that a U turn would be virtually useless. Also because of your suggestion I created a second HBLR service and run it down a second crosstown.

 

[R32 3348]

It isn't going to Todt Hill. It will run a few blocks west of it. Though any station that exist would still be called Todt Hill regardless of it. I think that a tunnel from Manhattan and Staten Island shouldn't be built as of yet until the makes it into Lower Manhattan. When that happens the could be an express service and the would be a local. Besides I think a tunnel between Brooklyn and Staten Island would be more economical only costing 240 million dollars then spending more on a Manhattan to Staten Island route. Reactivating the North Shore Line would cost 5 million. Building a West Shore Shore line would be 280 million. Running the and the lime green to the Sea Beach Line so it could run on to the tunnel 240 million. Possible extension to LaGuardia Airport 280 million. Total cost 1.1 billion. It could cost lower. Though a tunnel between Manhattan and Staten Island could be more then 50% of the cost I am suggesting now. Plus the extension that could cost nearly 3 billion dollars. Why would the waste three billion dollars when they could waste 1 billion dollars.

...What? Where did you get extending the to Lower Manhattan from? The is already down there, no need to spend another 3 billion dollars just so the gets to go to Staten Island. The North Shore line (keep in mind i have said NOTHING about a West Shore line) would not need express service since the line would not even be that long. Reactivating the North Shore line, according to the latest study done on the line, would cost $400 million, not $5 million. I hope you realize the North Shore line literally does not exist anymore. The structure is not there, and the parts that still remain from decades ago are so debilitated that they have to be completely reconstructed in order to be used. Also, cost estimates for a separate West Shore line running all the way down Staten Island were closer to $1 billion.

Still it would be only 3 billion compared to the Manhattan one which would be about 4 or 5 billion. It is cheaper then the phase of Second Avenue.

Where did you get the number $5 billion from? I just said in my last post that the proposed $40 million tunnel in 1921 works out to about $600 million dollars in 2010 dollars. Factor in design process, inflation, increasing construction material costs, delays, etc. and let's say that number goes up to $2 billion. That's less than half of what Phase I of the SAS costs. That is not exactly "huge cost" considering the is currently going full speed ahead with East Side Access which is almost 4 times as expensive. The tunnel from Staten Island to Brooklyn would only be about $1 billion relatively, but wouldn't provide nearly as much proximity to Manhattan as the Manhattan-Staten Island tunnel would. Either way, it would be possible to have both tunnels, you would just need the political will and the money to do it.

[Roadcruiser1]

Alright in my final map there is an extension of the train.

 

[checkmatechamp13]

The train lines are only a few blocks apart.What's the point in having 3 lines parallel each other in the South Shore? There is barely enough riders for 1 line, and now you want to add 3???

[Roadcruiser1]

I don't want to cut into the park and the wildlife refuge. If I run the along the West Shore it would require that. Besides they all run to different locations. The takes Staten Islanders to the Bronx and Manhattan. The and the takes riders to Queens and Brooklyn and the Hudson Bergen Light Rail takes people to New Jersey.

[checkmatechamp13]

My point is that there is no need for the to be extended to Staten Island (especially considering that it goes through Todt Hill and the Greenbelt). The and will be enough subway service for SI, and everybody who needs to get to the subway can take buses.

 

By the way, can you post my map on here in your next post? I don't know how to do it. Thanks.

[Roadcruiser1]

 

I can't upload it because it's PNG. You should have used art and used jpg. You have to go to Photobucket and create and account and upload the picture. Then right click the image. Click on copy image location. Then open post reply. Look on the upper right corner and click on the image that looks like a tree or it's green. Then paste the image location but remove the http and you got it.

[checkmatechamp13]

Is there any way to get it for free?

[Roadcruiser1]

It is free. Also this is another map. In this one there are 2 West Shore Branches, 2 North Shore Branches, 2 East Shore Bracnches (due to the HBLR), and 2 South Shore Branches.

 

 

The and the line in this map runs into the middle of nowhere. Though the West Shore has potential. If the lines get built. The frontier of Staten Island (west shore) would be developed fully within 30 years. Though out of all my maps this plan is the most viable (down below)

 

[R32 3348]

You don't need to run so many services parallel to each other. You could have the train run via North Shore and a HBLR extension down the West Shore. But you don't need two South Shore services only blocks apart from each other. You might as well use the same track.

[checkmatechamp13]

Here's the link to my map: http://s899.photobucket.com/albums/ac191/ajedrez1/?action=view&current=sirail-1.png . For some reason, I can't post the link on here.

 

The green lines are extension of the and into Staten Island, the red line is an extension of the HBLR to Staten Island, and the blue line is a commuter rail into Manhattan (most express routes (though probably not ones via NJ) the will feed into this line). The yellow dots are stations.

[Roadcruiser1]

Here I posted it for you

 

[checkmatechamp13]

Thanks. I appreciate it.

[Roadcruiser1]

You don't need a commuter rail. All you need is a transit option called a super express. In my map below the is brought back and runs from 57th Street to Tottenville. Though there is one difference. Unlike a regular subway line which it is in Manhattan. It becomes a super express. There would be no stops at Brooklyn except 36th and 59th Street. The tunnel between Staten Island and Brooklyn becomes 4 tracks. It will run several blocks east of Todts Hill and terminate at Tottenville with limited stops.

 

 

Though I don't really need the station north of Todt's Hill. I should have just made it run on to St George. A train traveling on this route could hit speeds of 55 mph. At this speed it might be faster then the ferry. Though it would take as long as the ferry ride 30 minutes.

[checkmatechamp13]

The thing about the commuter rail is that, in the minds of the commuters, it is as good as the express bus, whereas the subway is perceived to carry a lower-class type of people. My idea is to save on long-term costs by not having to run so many express routes, and running a subway line just wouldn't accomplish that because the commuters would demand their express routes.

 

As far as your routings go, there is no demand for 3 lines a couple of blocks apart (plus the community would probably oppose it). Any extensions should just be combined into the 1 SIR Line on the South Shore. The crosstown line (which I don't think is necessary) should terminate at New Dorp.

[Roadcruiser1]

Ok the blue line is a commuter rail to Manhattan. Also the HBLR near the Verrazano has been extended south recreating the South Beach Branch.

 

[checkmatechamp13]

Think of it this way-the South Beach Branch pretty much paralleled the current S51 from St. George to South Beach (Richmond Terrace to Sand Lane). Your line parallels the S51 from South Beach to Midland Beach (Sand Lane to Midland Avenue), so your line serves a seperate market.

 

The idea behind my plan is to be as cost-efficient as possible in serving the communities, meaning that each community should get only 1 line (except at transfer stations). Your plan has 2 North/West Shore Lines and 2 South Shore Lines a couple of blocks apart (it is irrelevant that one is the HBLR and one is the train-if you really want people to have access to both Brooklyn/Queens and New Jersey, have a free transfer available at a certain station.).

 

As far as the commuter rail goes, the same concept applies. They should be spread out. Look at the Metro-North in The Bronx-the subway serves the eastern and western section of The Bronx, and the Metro-North serves the central section. It doesn't work too well in The Bronx as far as serving Manhattan is concerned (due to the high fares to Manhattan), but it works well going northbound.

 

Plus, my commuter rail goes on the Staten Island Expressway, as opposed to going through the North Shore (again, reducing duplication). That way, since all of the express buses feed into the Staten Island Expressway to go over the Verrazanno-Narrows Bridge, you simply have the express routes feed into the station and have the people transfer to the commuter rail line.

 

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that having several lines concentrated on one corridor is ineffective as far as construction goes and operations go (the ridership would be split between 2 lines, so you'll be running 2 half-empty trains instead of 1 full one, making both lines more inefficient). By trying to spread them out to serve as many areas as possible, you get the most value for your construction money. The key is to make it a well-connected system by having buses feed into the rail lines and having big transfer stations to access multiple destinations (if you notice, in my map, every line connects to every other line, except for the commuter rail line and South/East Shore Line, which can be fixed by building another station).

[checkmatechamp13]

This is a (crudely drawn) map of what an ideal Staten Island transit system would look like. The black line represents the North/West Shore Rail Line, the other black line represents the HBLR extension down Richmond Avenue, the purple line represents the commuter rail system(you can play with the express bus routings and decide if any should go directly to Manhattan). The yellow circles represent stops.

 

http://s899.photobucket.com/albums/ac191/ajedrez1/?action=view&current=StatenIslandBusMap-2.png&newest=1

 

I also retructured some of the bus lines on Staten Island. From the post-service cut era, I did the following:

 

Combined the S42 and S54 (runs weekdays only)

Extended the S57 to New Dorp Beach (replaces the S76 on weekends and serves New Dorp High School weekdays)

Extended the S40 to the Elizabeth NJT station and Newark Airport

Created a new light rail line from Bloomfield as an extension of the Newark Light Rail.

Extended the S55 to Perth Amboy

Extended the S74/S84 to Bricktowne Mall.

Eliminated the S90 (replaced by the North Shore Rail)

[LRG]

This is a (crudely drawn) map of what an ideal Staten Island transit system would look like. The black line represents the North/West Shore Rail Line, the other black line represents the HBLR extension down Richmond Avenue, the purple line represents the commuter rail system(you can play with the express bus routings and decide if any should go directly to Manhattan). The yellow circles represent stops.

 

http://s899.photobucket.com/albums/ac191/ajedrez1/?action=view&current=StatenIslandBusMap-2.png&newest=1

 

I also retructured some of the bus lines on Staten Island. From the post-service cut era, I did the following:

 

Combined the S42 and S54 (runs weekdays only)

Extended the S57 to New Dorp Beach (replaces the S76 on weekends and serves New Dorp High School weekdays)

Extended the S40 to the Elizabeth NJT station and Newark Airport

Created a new light rail line from Bloomfield as an extension of the Newark Light Rail.

Extended the S55 to Perth Amboy

Extended the S74/S84 to Bricktowne Mall.

Eliminated the S90 (replaced by the North Shore Rail)

 

Not bad. To add on, I think that if passenger service along the North Shore Line ever became a reality, then the S40 may not be needed at night (?)

[Roadcruiser1]

In this map the HBLR now runs directly to the Staten Island Mall. The and the runs along the West Shore and East Shore (SIR). The HBLR doesn't cut across the park and use the streets as it's route. The commuter rail/super express run parallel to the Staten Island Expressway. It also runs parallel to the Verrazano.