Extension of the SIR or the NYC Subway to Brooklyn or Manhattan

[S78 via Hylan]

I think the Staten Island Train should go into brooklyn and the last stop would be Bowling Green in Manhattan to get a connection with the 4 train instead of taking the ferry. I say have two different trains on staten island, The train's on the hour and half hour mark will go make the stops on Staten Island all the way up to Grasmere and then they will have a way to get to 86 street in Bay Ridge and make all stops in brooklyn and once it gets to Mahattan the last stop will be Bowling Green so commuters can have easy access to the 4 Train. The Train's that leave on the Quarter to and the Quarter after mark will just be local train on staten island. But the thing is there will no express train at all on Staten Island.

 

Excellent ideas, but I do have a few comments:

 

1. The SIR express is used by a lot of people to reach the ferry, so eliminating that will upset many passengers unless you make the local very frequent during rush hour.

 

2. I do like your idea of making the SIR and the other train alternate, but the ones of the hour and and half hour have to meet the ferry otherwise, people will miss their connections.

[Kerri78rider]

Excellent ideas, but I do have a few comments:

 

1. The SIR express is used by a lot of people to reach the ferry, so eliminating that will upset many passengers unless you make the local very frequent during rush hour.

 

2. I do like your idea of making the SIR and the other train alternate, but the ones of the hour and and half hour have to meet the ferry otherwise, people will miss their connections.

 

 

That's why the Quarter to and the Quarter After trains that leave from Tottenville are gonna go to Brooklyn and not the ferry. This way they can get to Manhattan quicker.

[S78 via Hylan]

That's why the Quarter to and the Quarter After trains that leave from Tottenville are gonna go to Brooklyn and not the ferry. This way they can get to Manhattan quicker.

 

Oh I see, but the headways would still be 30 minutes to each terminal. So how about making them alternate every 7-8 minutes during rush hour?

 

One last thing is that you would need more trains for the extra service.

[Kerri78rider]

Oh I see, but the headways would still be 30 minutes to each terminal. So how about making them alternate every 7-8 minutes during rush hour?

 

One last thing is that you would need more trains for the extra service.

 

 

Every 5-6 minutes during Rush Hour so people don't have to rush to catch the ferries.

[S78 via Hylan]

Every 5-6 minutes during Rush Hour so people don't have to rush to catch the ferries.

That works, but one suggestion I had was that, it could follow the to Whitehall St and then people can transfer to the because people can already transfer to the at Atlantic Av-Pacific St.

[Kerri78rider]

That works, but one suggestion I had was that, it could follow the to Whitehall St and then people can transfer to the because people can already transfer to the at Atlantic Av-Pacific St.

 

Actually, instead the Staten Island A and it will be Blue train which will be the new name for the Trains that go to Manhattan, Have it stop at Whitehall street as it's last stop so comuters can have connection with the 1 and the R.

[S78 via Hylan]

Actually, instead the Staten Island A and it will be Blue train which will be the new name for the Trains that go to Manhattan, Have it stop at Whitehall street as it's last stop so comuters can have connection with the 1 and the R.

 

Ok, but just know that Bowling Green and Whitehall Street are two different stations. Otherwise, you plan is cool.

[Kerri78rider]

Ok, but just know that Bowling Green and Whitehall Street are two different stations. Otherwise, you plan is cool.

 

Yes, i know they are two different stations. It's not gonna be stopping at Bowling Green.

[checkmatechamp13]

I have an idea-since there are plans to replace the Gowanus Expressway with a tunnel, this would be a great way to add a commuter rail service (separate from this plan to connect the SIR with the rest of the subway system).

 

The line could start in the Arrochar neighborhood in Staten Island, which has a lot of express bus service (most or all express service would feed into the line and not go into Manhattan). The line could go over the Verrazanno-Narrows Bridge and continue along the path of I-278 and into Lower Manhattan (at the Fulton Street Transit Center). Stops for this commuter rail line could be at 86th Street, 65th Street, and Colombia Street (to serve Red Hook).

 

The fare could be the same as the express bus fare, with transfers being accepted from other forms of transit. (Basically, if it were running today, the fare would be $5.50, and the buses that stop near Arrochar would terminate at the station, with a free transfer to the commuter rail line programmed into the MetroCard. There would also be transfers allowed from local buses to this rail line for $3.25. Another transfer would be programmed for transfers to the subway/local buses in Manhattan). The same rule would apply for X27/X28 customers.

 

The advantage of this would be the fact that, since rail offers more capacity than buses, the cost per passenger would be less, which gave me the idea of having a rail line replace the HOV lane.

 

If express bus commuters really complain and decide that they want direct access to Midtown, the line can be extended in the median of the FDR Drive and go up to Grand Central.

 

What does everybody think?

[R32 3348]

inb4 TL;DR

 

The Staten Island Railway is under the regulation of the FRA, which requires different standards of equipment, signaling, ect. from your average subway line. In order for it to be considered a subway line (in the eyes of the government) they would have to change a lot of things.

Contrary to popular belief, The SIR is in fact NOT under FRA regulations, and has not been so since 1988 when the railway was cut off from the national railway system. The reason this information is passed around everywhere is because it is posted in multiple places (i.e. Wikipedia, places that get their info from Wikipedia) that the SIR is under an FRA waiver, when these statements do not have sources to back it up.

 

According to this FTA safety investigation of the Staten Island Railway in 1993, the SIR has not been under any FRA regulations since 1988, when freight service along the line was discontinued. Here are some quotes you can find through the document if you search "1988" as well.

 

Substance Abuse

 

While under no requirement to perform drug and alcohol testing since leaving the regulatory control of the FRA in 1988, SIRTOA has continued to doso

 

The system began in 1860 as a private freight and passenger railroad operation. In 1971 the line was taken over by SIRTOA, which switched it to an exclusively rapid rail passenger line in 1988.

 

The line was originally constructed and operated as a traditional railroad and carried both passengers and freight until 1988, when freight service was discontinued. Although rapid transit trains now have exclusive use of the line, much of SIRTOA’s design and operational practices still reflect its railroad heritage.

 

Please note that although freight service to Staten Island resumed in late 2006, it only goes so far as Fresh Kills, which is not physically connected to the Staten Island Railway. Besides, if it were, we would be running North Shore rail service right now.

 

I also have an brochure celebrating the 150th anniversary of the Staten Island Railway. Under the railroad's history, it states that "SIRTOA was legally removed from the jurisdiction of the Federal Railway Labor Act, a federal law that governs labor relations in the railway and airline industries". While this doesn't have to do with FRA regulation directly it supports how the railway moved away from federal railroad regulations as it switched over to a rapid transit line. BTW, if anyone finds information (that isn't linked to Wikipedia) stating otherwise, then please let me know.

Does anyone know if the Verrazano can allow and fit trains. The last time I read information about it the borough of Staten Island and Brooklyn asked for the bridge to be rapid transit ready. Robert Moses refused (he prefer a car full New York) and never allowed his bridges to be rapid transit ready. If I also read the Verrazano's approach is extremely steep for trains. Robert Moses did it on purpose to make rapid transit almost impossible and expensive. If it's true then the other option is a new bridge or tunnel. Or an expensive and the MTA would never approve demolish the current Verrazano and build a different span that allow rail traffic.

Because of Robert Moses, the Verrazano was built on a grade too steep to allow for rail traffic to use the bridge.

 

However, according to this 1919 NY Times article, even if you built a tunnel from Staten Island to Brooklyn, it would take Staten Islanders about 45 minutes to reach Lower Manhattan anyway; whereas a tunnel directly from Staten Island to Lower Manhattan would only take about 15 minutes to cross, if not less.

 

I'm not aware of anything that would make a tunnel from Staten Island to Lower Manhattan impossible (i.e. some natural roadblock in the Narrows). If you were to build a tunnel from Staten Island to Brooklyn, you might as well spend just a little more money to build a tunnel that provides much more direct and convenient service (but of course, as we all know, it would be a long time before such money were to become available). As for possible subway expansion, you could theoretically extend the train under the Narrows to connect to Staten Island, but I'm not sure how feasible this is since I don't know how close the South Ferry station is to the waterfront. A tunnel would definitely be cost-effective in Staten Island, since it would greatly increase proximity to Lower Manhattan (not directly at the northern tip of the borough, but as you go farther down the borough since you nullify the time you have to wait for the ferry, and the extra time the ferry would take). Back in the 1910's when subway lines were being built out into practically farmland, they helped develop their surroundings into the neighborhoods that exist today. As Staten Island is currently the fastest growing borough (IINM) a subway tunnel would definitely help out.

[Roadcruiser1]

The problem is a tunnel between Manhattan and Staten Island isn't really short. It's about six miles. The Staten Island Ferry makes it look like a short journey because it travels about 20 knots or 18 mph. A subway train would be faster. On average it could travel 45 mph or 47 knots. If it's a direct route it would take about 6-8 minutes to reach Lower Manhattan rather then the ferry which takes 30 minutes. If it gains a stop at Governor's Island it would take 15 minutes. There's a problem. The tunnel would turn twice one when leaving St George and one before South Ferry. It won't be cheap. It could come with delays, problems, cost. It just isn't viable. We also would have to wait for Second Avenue to be completed. The cheapest and fastest option would be a tunnel from Brooklyn to Staten Island. There is a service that could be used the Crosstown . That's why if you look at my earlier post you would understand.

[checkmatechamp13]

But the is built to IRT specs and the (SIR) is built to BMT/IND specs, but I guess the platforms could be widened the accomodate IRT cars.

 

By the way, how did they expand the Astoria Line platforms in 1949? Would they close one track and expand the platform on one side and then close the other track and expand the platforms on the other side?

[Roadcruiser1]

There is also another problem. The Staten Island Railway's platform wasn't built to be long enough for a full car subway train. I believe it's better to extend the and a future . The and the would be extended to LaGuardia Airport serving as a feeder line for all other subway service. Once it reaches 14th Avenue and Church Avenue the line turns into 14th Avenue. There it would run south along with a transfer at 62nd Street. It turns into 86th Street but doesn't run onto the Verrazano. It runs down 86th Street with a transfer to the . It continues down into the 86th Street Tunnel. From there it would connect to the tracks between Clifton and Grasmere. The runs to Clifton and continues to St George and then run on to the abandoned North Shore Branch. When a new West Shore Line is built (hopefully elevated) is built the would run on towards Tottenville. The would run to Grasmere and run on to Tottenville. The SIR would become an and would run between Tottenville and Richmond Valley Road. It would give the new riders a chance to get to St George. Not just that the and the would go from glorified shuttles to full blown subway lines.

[checkmatechamp13]

There is also another problem. The Staten Island Railway's platform wasn't built to be long enough for a full car subway train. I believe it's better to extend the and a future . The and the would be extended to LaGuardia Airport serving as a feeder line for all other subway service. Once it reaches 14th Avenue and Church Avenue the line turns into 14th Avenue. There it would run south along with a transfer at 62nd Street. It turns into 86th Street but doesn't run onto the Verrazano. It runs down 86th Street with a transfer to the . It continues down into the 86th Street Tunnel. From there it would connect to the tracks between Clifton and Grasmere. The runs to Clifton and continues to St George and then run on to the abandoned North Shore Branch. When a new West Shore Line is built (hopefully elevated) is built the would run on towards Tottenville. The would run to Grasmere and run on to Tottenville. The SIR would become an and would run between Tottenville and Richmond Valley Road. It would give the new riders a chance to get to St George. Not just that the and the would go from glorified shuttles to full blown subway lines.

 

If there was really going to be an extension, the ridership of the SIR would go up, and the platforms would be able to be extended, so that wouldn't be a problem.

I don't agree with what you are saying. To keep the amount of construction required to a minimum, the best chance would be to go down 14th Avenue and go onto the Sea Beach Line, and then over to St. George through a tunnel (A connection can be built with the 59th Street platform to connect with the )

That way, you have no problems with the service pattern. The goes to the South/East Shore, the goes to the North/West Shore, and everything goes to Brooklyn at St. George. No shuttles, no confusion, and less merging. Also, St George is a big bus terminal, so all of the bus riders who want to go to Brooklyn get double the service, not to mention the transfer would be much easier than Grasmere or Clifton.

[Roadcruiser1]

Now that we know the route lets decide what type of tunnel the and the would use to get to Staten Island. We have several options an Immersed Tube, Drilling Method, and the never built Floating Tunnel.

[R32 3348]

The problem is a tunnel between Manhattan and Staten Island isn't really short. It's about six miles. The Staten Island Ferry makes it look like a short journey because it travels about 20 knots or 18 mph. A subway train would be faster. On average it could travel 45 mph or 47 knots. If it's a direct route it would take about 6-8 minutes to reach Lower Manhattan rather then the ferry which takes 30 minutes. If it gains a stop at Governor's Island it would take 15 minutes. There's a problem. The tunnel would turn twice one when leaving St George and one before South Ferry. It won't be cheap. It could come with delays, problems, cost. It just isn't viable. We also would have to wait for Second Avenue to be completed. The cheapest and fastest option would be a tunnel from Brooklyn to Staten Island. There is a service that could be used the Crosstown . That's why if you look at my earlier post you would understand.

According to Second Avenue Sagas, a tunnel directly from Manhattan to Staten Island in 1921 was estimated at $25 million dollars. That is about $300 million in today's dollars. Later on it goes on to say that a more reasonable cost would be $40 million dollars. Let's say the real cost back then was $75 million dollars. In today's dollars that would be about $900 million. Factor in the design process, extra money in case of delays, etc. and the price tag for a subway extension across the narrows plus a North Shore extension (currently valued at $400 million) would be at $2 billion dollars maximum. For comparison purposes, SAS Phase I is currently valued at $4.5 billion dollars and East Side Access at $7.7 billion dollars. I also never said the would run all the way down to Tottenville if connected to Staten Island. The current SIR already does that. A subway extension could just take the North Shore alignment currently proposed (with a connection at St. George) to Arlington.

 

I didn't mention a stop at Governor's island which eliminate the problem of sharp turns to reach the island. We would not necessarily have to wait for Second Ave. to be completed (this is all hypothetical anyway) either. The is currently working on three projects involving tunneling - one of which is complete and another which is at about the halfway mark. Given the right amount of funding the can do more than one task at once. Meanwhile, a tunnel to Brooklyn wouldn't be much cheaper and would provide much more indirect access to Manhattan. While I would support a Lower Manhattan-Staten Island subway tunnel, though, there are much bigger priorities the has, like getting out of this whole budget problem that has us screwed for three out of the next five years (according to their new budget).

[Roadcruiser1]

I never said the Manhattan to Staten Island tunnel would be impossible but the SIR was never built to IRT standards. The North Shore Branch was built to the IND/BMT standards. Even if you run the or a future extension the SIR would require a lot of configuration and still would be more expensive. Even if the SIR becomes a subway line. Signals anything that isn't IRT has to become IRT. It might be more expensive too. Though the is BMT/IND ready. Would require almost no platform change (if it stays in it's four car length). Though I doubt it would because it's transporting Staten Islanders. I also doubt a West Shore Line. The western section of Staten Island is just green fields with streets running through them. There is no use for a subway line running there and the stations would have one of the lowest riderships in the . The lime green would have a better chance of gaining ridership running elevated over Richmond Boulevard. Part of the Wildlife refuge would have to go because to get to the other side of the creek it needs it's own bridge across before running elevated on Richmond Avenue to get to the SIR and merge with the .

[checkmatechamp13]

According to Second Avenue Sagas, a tunnel directly from Manhattan to Staten Island in 1921 was estimated at $25 million dollars. That is about $300 million in today's dollars. Later on it goes on to say that a more reasonable cost would be $40 million dollars. Let's say the real cost back then was $75 million dollars. In today's dollars that would be about $900 million. Factor in the design process, extra money in case of delays, etc. and the price tag for a subway extension across the narrows plus a North Shore extension (currently valued at $400 million) would be at $2 billion dollars maximum. For comparison purposes, SAS Phase I is currently valued at $4.5 billion dollars and East Side Access at $7.7 billion dollars. I also never said the would run all the way down to Tottenville if connected to Staten Island. The current SIR already does that. A subway extension could just take the North Shore alignment currently proposed (with a connection at St. George) to Arlington.

 

I didn't mention a stop at Governor's island which eliminate the problem of sharp turns to reach the island. We would not necessarily have to wait for Second Ave. to be completed (this is all hypothetical anyway) either. The is currently working on three projects involving tunneling - one of which is complete and another which is at about the halfway mark. Given the right amount of funding the can do more than one task at once. Meanwhile, a tunnel to Brooklyn wouldn't be much cheaper and would provide much more indirect access to Manhattan. While I would support a Lower Manhattan-Staten Island subway tunnel, though, there are much bigger priorities the has, like getting out of this whole budget problem that has us screwed for three out of the next five years (according to their new budget).

 

 

 

But the question is: how much cheaper is "not much"?

 

I typed in on Google Transit directions from Narrows Road South at Fingerboard Road to 92nd Street at 5th Avenue. The map said that that was 2.7 miles. That looks like approximately the distance from St. George to the 59th Street (N)/® station.

For all intents and purposes, let's say that connecting to the 4th Avenue Line is 3 miles and connecting directly to Manhattan is 5 miles. The additional connection to the Culver Line can be counted as a seperate project, as it would be a benefit to the Borough Park neighborhood.

In theory, if the direct tunnel to Manhattan is $900 million, that means that a tunnel to Brooklyn can be about 3/5 of the cost, or $540 million, a savings of $360 million. Not to mention the fact that the shorter distance means less engineering hassle, so the savings could potentially be more.

By the way, the distance from 62nd Street to Church Avenue via 14th Street is 1.5 miles, so, at a cost of $180 million per mile, that is about $270 million.

Of course, if the Second Avenue Subway costs $4.5 billion for Phase I, why can't we have both the Manhattan alignment and Brooklyn alignment, which costs less than $2 billion?

 

I never said the Manhattan to Staten Island tunnel would be impossible but the SIR was never built to IRT standards. The North Shore Branch was built to the IND/BMT standards. Even if you run the or a future extension the SIR would require a lot of configuration and still would be more expensive. Even if the SIR becomes a subway line. Signals anything that isn't IRT has to become IRT. It might be more expensive too. Though the is BMT/IND ready. Would require almost no platform change (if it stays in it's four car length). Though I doubt it would because it's transporting Staten Islanders. I also doubt a West Shore Line. The western section of Staten Island is just green fields with streets running through them. There is no use for a subway line running there and the stations would have one of the lowest riderships in the . The lime green would have a better chance of gaining ridership running elevated over Richmond Boulevard. Part of the Wildlife refuge would have to go because to get to the other side of the creek it needs it's own bridge across before running elevated on Richmond Avenue to get to the SIR and merge with the .

 

By that logic, the ends of some commuter rail lines shouldn't exist, since they are in the middle of nowhere.

The West Shore Light Rail Line was meant to be an extension of the HBLR via the Martin Luther King Jr./Staten Island/West Shore Expressway. The North Shore Line was supposed to either terminate at Arlington or go down South Avenue to the Teleport.

If the North Shore Rail were to be extended down the West Shore Expressway, the idea would be to get people out of their cars and on to public transit. By running directly from the South Shore (Pleasant Plains) to the North Shore (Arlington and all points east), the line would be much faster than private cars. Also, running in the median of expressways requires less money for construction and impacts the communities less than running along Richmond Avenue.

Ideally, there would be an integrated fare system allowing transfers from the North Shore Line to the West Shore Line (running either down Richmond Avenue or the West Shore Expressway) at Elm Park.

[Roadcruiser1]

So if it is deserted then the should run on a elevated structure. It's cheaper then tunneling, and it won't disturb the Wildlife Refuge. Though you are right. It would encourage those green area's to become parks, houses, apartments, and stores.

[R32 3348]

I never said the Manhattan to Staten Island tunnel would be impossible but the SIR was never built to IRT standards. The North Shore Branch was built to the IND/BMT standards. Even if you run the or a future extension the SIR would require a lot of configuration and still would be more expensive. Even if the SIR becomes a subway line. Signals anything that isn't IRT has to become IRT. It might be more expensive too. Though the is BMT/IND ready. Would require almost no platform change (if it stays in it's four car length). Though I doubt it would because it's transporting Staten Islanders. I also doubt a West Shore Line. The western section of Staten Island is just green fields with streets running through them. There is no use for a subway line running there and the stations would have one of the lowest riderships in the . The lime green would have a better chance of gaining ridership running elevated over Richmond Boulevard. Part of the Wildlife refuge would have to go because to get to the other side of the creek it needs it's own bridge across before running elevated on Richmond Avenue to get to the SIR and merge with the .

The North Shore Branch was built to IND/BMT standards but the North Shore branch doesn't exist anymore. Parts of the old line are literally underwater right now. What I am suggesting is not making a single modification to the current SIR. The SIR would stay as it is while a subway route would run on the North Shore branch to Manahttan. There would be no revenue service running on the current SIR tracks so nothing would have to be reconfigured. For convenience purposes a transfer would exist at St. George.

 

Also, if you're saying there would be little to no ridership (even though I haven't suggested a West Shore route at all), then the must be one of the least used routes in the system.

 

 

 

 

 

That was when the line was just built in 1917. Now that entire neighborhood is bustling with commuters since it's so close to Manhattan. The North Shore would be just as close (and there is obviously demand for it considering they want to build it) to Manhattan through a subway tunnel and would spur dramatic development across Northern Staten Island.

Of course, if the Second Avenue Subway costs $4.5 billion for Phase I, why can't we have both the Manhattan alignment and Brooklyn alignment, which costs less than $2 billion?

 

Since this is all hypothetical I would support both tunnels at the same time. After all there are multiple tunnels connecting each borough to Manhattan, just blocks apart. What I was arguing earlier was, why build a tunnel to Brooklyn when you could spend about $1 billion more (relatively little when looking at the (MTA)'s big capital projects) and cut the travel time from Staten Island to Lower Manhattan to a minimum? It would pay for itself (in both cases) since you are potentially making a 3-seat ride (counting the ferry) from Staten Island to Manhattan into a 1-2 seat ride with a new tunnel. That would make it much more desirable to live in Staten Island and you would see the same development that is happening in the South Bronx, Long Island City, Williamsburg, etc. But yes, I would support a Brooklyn - Staten Island connection too.

[checkmatechamp13]

The thing is that the section of the West Shore Expressway between Victory Blvd and Arthur Kill Road is supposed to be Fresh Kills Park (a landfill that was capped), so the line in that section would only be serving a park (which may be a large attraction, since it would be a one of the biggest parks in NYC).

 

I'm not sure if the section of the line between Victory Blvd and Arlington contains a lot of developable land. I was at a meeting discussing the future of the West Shore and learned that there would be plans to build a large housing development (just 4-5 story buildings) on Forest Avenue near the Home Depot. The idea would be that the residents would have a lot of seniors who only need a small apartment, and who want to live by their families, as well as regular working people who need transportation to ge to work. My guess would be that those people would be going in both directions, to visit their families on the South Shore, and to go to work in places on the North Shore and in Manhattan/Brooklyn.

 

The section south of that would be an expansion of the Teleport, with office buildings (the problem is that this doesn't generate a lot of off-peak demand).

 

The South Shore is where much of the development would take place, in the section between Arthur Kill Road and the Pleasant Plains SIR station. There is where there is real capacity to expand, and increase the density of the surrounding neighborhood. The rail line would provide an alternative to sitting in traffic on the West Shore Expressway (also, studies show that neighborhoods with higher population density tend to have more autoless households, which in turn, provide a passenger base for transit lines in the neighborhood)

[Roadcruiser1]

I know the lime green and the would have to meet before they terminate together at Tottenville. The would merge with the between Arthur Kill Road and Richmond Valley. Don't worry I have had been at Staten Island before. Fresh Kills Park and Clay Ponds State Park Reserve should allow park visitor on the . There is also a country club, a state forest, a golf course, and there are massive swaths of empty land at locations south of Port Ivory and the Geothals Bridge. In fact I am even studying the satellite photos from Google maps just in case. I can't even believe how empty it is. It is in fact able to be developed all the parks are east of it. There are streets there just running right into green fields. It has so much potential. In fact if the ran down the West Shore in about 30 years that whole place would be developed. The line would run by neighborhood borders without telling people to leave so the line would get built. I think that a future West and North Shore Branch and the SIR connected to the and the would bring economic prosperity to Staten Island. Also the Staten Island Ferry could purchase high speed ferries which are cheaper then a tunnel between Staten Island and Manhattan. High speed ferries in today's world could go at speeds of 60 knots or 57 mph and would go much faster then trains. It would only take 6 minutes to travel between Staten Island and Manhattan. So in fact if you add a high speed ferry the time would be a little faster then extending the or to Staten Island. Yes even though they might have to transfer the time would be equivalent or even faster then the time needed. In fact a typical high speed ferry can carry 800 people and 200 cars.

[R32 3348]

I know the lime green and the would have to meet before they terminate together at Tottenville. The would merge with the between Arthur Kill Road and Richmond Valley. Don't worry I have had been at Staten Island before. Fresh Kills Park and Clay Ponds State Park Reserve should allow park visitor on the . There is also a country club, a state forest, a golf course, and there are massive swaths of empty land at locations south of Port Ivory and the Geothals Bridge. In fact I am even studying the satellite photos from Google maps just in case. I can't even believe how empty it is. It is in fact able to be developed all the parks are east of it. There are streets there just running right into green fields. It has so much potential. In fact if the ran down the West Shore in about 30 years that whole place would be developed. The line would run by neighborhood borders without telling people to leave so the line would get built. I think that a future West and North Shore Branch and the SIR connected to the and the would bring economic prosperity to Staten Island. Also the Staten Island Ferry could purchase high speed ferries which are cheaper then a tunnel between Staten Island and Manhattan. High speed ferries in today's world could go at speeds of 60 knots or 57 mph and would go much faster then trains. It would only take 6 minutes to travel between Staten Island and Manhattan. So in fact if you add a high speed ferry the time would be a little faster then extending the or to Staten Island. Yes even though they might have to transfer the time would be equivalent or even faster then the time needed.

It would not take 6 minutes to go from Staten Island to Manhattan just by ferry. It would maybe take 6 minutes if the boat started off at 57MPH but that's not the case. The ferry has to accelerate to that speed first and then slow down well before each terminal in order to dock properly. It would still be at least 10 minutes, and you're not factoring in the fact that the ferry runs either every 15 or 30 minutes, depending on the time of day.

[Roadcruiser1]

Alright but I think the and should stay as they are and the and could run down the center or the heart of Staten Island to Tottenville. With St George being factored. The and should be built first. When the economy is better and the gains enough money then the Manhattan-Staten Island tunnel would be considered.

[checkmatechamp13]

I wouldn't really advocate for a line down the center of Staten Island. The center of Staten Island is Todt Hill, which is the wealthiest neighborhood on Staten Island, with a very low density (the residents would definately oppose that plan).

 

The only other corridors that would need help would be Richmond Avenue (which would be served by an extended HBLR if the Richmond Avenue alignment were chosen), and possibly Victory Blvd or the Staten Island Expressway (speaking of which, what does everybody think of my commuter rail idea?).