Extension of the SIR or the NYC Subway to Brooklyn or Manhattan

[Roadcruiser1]

As everyone knows. Staten Island has the heaviest amount of automobile usage in New York City. It is the only borough without subways running. The only location where there is even transit is the SIR. So should the SIR or the NYC Subway be extended to Staten Island. There has been proposals before that asked for a tunnel to Staten Island in fact a plan from the 1920's mention a tunnel to Staten Island. There was no commitment so the tunnel was only partially built. The shafts and the tunnel exist under Owl Heads Park. The other idea was proposed in 1917. It was a tunnel between Staten Island and Manhattan though today this tunnel would be expensive.

 

 

 

http://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/2010/07/the-futurenycsubway-staten-island/

[East New York]

It wouldn't be a bad idea to have a subway/El, or light rail added to SI, but that's not likely going to happen in our lifetime. First we need to get the built!

[LRG]

It wouldn't be a bad idea to have a subway/El, or light rail added to SI, but that's not likely going to happen in our lifetime. First we need to get the built!

 

Exactly. I'm all in favor of a subway extension to Staten Island but at this time, it's not going to happen. 20-30 years from now, maybe. Damn, my life will be basically half over by the time a ril link is built between Manhattan and Staten Island.

[Santa Fe via Willow]

Interesting ideas & thoughts regarding the SIR & SI trains. Realistically speaking, it'll probably be 4 score & 7 years before there's BART Class tubes connecting SI to Manhattan, Bkln, NJ & other places.

 

That Governors Island stop is a really cool idea.

[checkmatechamp13]

The Fort Hamilton Parkway alignment would be pretty good. It would restore the direct connection between the West End and Culver Line and fill in a gp in Borough Park.

 

If I were designing it, I would have the Staten Island Line run up 16th Avenue instead of Fort Hamilton Parkway, so it would connect directly to the Church Avenue station and assume a role of either Culver Local or Culver Express.

 

As far as the other alignments go, if it ran on the 4th Avenue Line, it would pretty much have to run on the local track. The express track would be full to capacity with the (D)/(N) trains (though I think at one point, the (:)/(M)/(N) all ran on the express track).

 

I just don't like the idea of going through New York Harbor. I prefer to use existing capacity rather than spending extra money building a tunnel for a line that doesn't run too frequently (even if headways were doubled, that would still leave the SIR with 15-minute off-peak headways). I don't know what is there to see in Governors Island that merits a whole subway line going there.

 

By the way, does anybody have an estimate of how much the travel time would be on each of the alignments?

[Roadcruiser1]

It's true. It might be better off running down 14th Avenue and turn west once it reaches 86th Street. When the Triboro RX is ever created it would have connection to the 62nd Street Station where it meets the , , and the (X). Once it runs west it could also connect to the train at 86th St. Have the (Mx) brought back. Bring back the . Allow a new crosstown the . Run them on the upper level. Have the gain a crossover north of Church Avenue and make it run local and have the and the run to Staten Island. Meanwhile they can extend the and the to LaGuardia Airport so passengers can switch to lines running to Manhattan. Once the and the run on to Staten Island it can run on the SIR. The would run along the North and West Shore. The would run on most of the East Shore. Both of them would terminate at Tottenville. Once Staten Islanders get off at Church Avenue they could transfer to the and the .

[Kamen Rider]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[East New York]

The feds will put the kybosh on this in two seconds. SIR can never share space with the subway.

 

Why is that?

[Nova RTS 9147]

Why is that?

 

The Staten Island Railway is under the regulation of the FRA, which requires different standards of equipment, signaling, ect. from your average subway line. In order for it to be considered a subway line (in the eyes of the government) they would have to change a lot of things.

 

By the way, a light rail from St George to New Jersey (with a connection to HBLR) is a lot cheaper and realistic than a subway connection. While it would help SI a lot, there just simply isn't the political will for anything like what Vanshnookenraggen proposes.

[Roadcruiser1]

There might be another way. Build a subway line parallel to the SIR and the North Shore Branch. With a new West Shore Line. Create a new rail yard and subway station at Tottenville. Leave the SIR and extend it around Staten Island and create a Staten Island loop. The SIR can help people that use the which uses most of the East Shore Branch but won't run to the Staten Island Ferry. The would serve the Staten Island Ferry and run along the West Shore and North Shore all the way to Tottenville.

[LRG]

The Staten Island Railway is under the regulation of the FRA, which requires different standards of equipment, signaling, ect. from your average subway line. In order for it to be considered a subway line (in the eyes of the government) they would have to change a lot of things.

 

It was done with the IND Rockaway Line. I don't see why it couldn't be done with the SIR should it ever happen.

[Roadcruiser1]

Does anyone know if the Verrazano can allow and fit trains. The last time I read information about it the borough of Staten Island and Brooklyn asked for the bridge to be rapid transit ready. Robert Moses refused (he prefer a car full New York) and never allowed his bridges to be rapid transit ready. If I also read the Verrazano's approach is extremely steep for trains. Robert Moses did it on purpose to make rapid transit almost impossible and expensive. If it's true then the other option is a new bridge or tunnel. Or an expensive and the MTA would never approve demolish the current Verrazano and build a different span that allow rail traffic.

[LRG]

Does anyone know if the Verrazano can allow and fit trains. The last time I read information about it the borough of Staten Island and Brooklyn asked for the bridge to be rapid transit ready. Robert Moses refused (he prefer a car full New York) and never allowed his bridges to be rapid transit ready. If I also read the Verrazano's approach is extremely steep for trains. Robert Moses did it on purpose to make rapid transit almost impossible and expensive. If it's true then the other option is a new bridge or tunnel.

 

Last time I checked, it is built to handle trains. Nevertheless, what more could you expect from Robert Moses...that guy was a bigot who hated people from his own religion.

[Nova RTS 9147]

It was done with the IND Rockaway Line. I don't see why it couldn't be done with the SIR should it ever happen.

 

I'm sure it could be done, but you're facing some logistical issues (again, changing signals and equipment, disconnecting SIR from the freight line).

 

Plus, the Rockaway Line was not used for about six years (please correct me if Im wrong) before the , or whatever incarnation of the modern ran the line once again. Something that can't be done today without pissing off a lot of people who use the line every day.

[Gotham Bus Co]

Does anyone know if the Verrazano can allow and fit trains. The last time I read information about it the borough of Staten Island and Brooklyn asked for the bridge to be rapid transit ready. Robert Moses refused (he prefer a car full New York) and never allowed his bridges to be rapid transit ready. If I also read the Verrazano's approach is extremely steep for trains. Robert Moses did it on purpose to make rapid transit almost impossible and expensive. If it's true then the other option is a new bridge or tunnel. Or an expensive and the MTA would never approve demolish the current Verrazano and build a different span that allow rail traffic.

 

 

Your reading on Robert Moses is correct - he had all of his bridges and highways designed specifically to preclude subway usage.

 

A few years ago, I saw a PBS documentary on the history of NYC that included an interview with Robert Moses during the hearings on the Cross Bronx Expressway. In that interview, he stated that "cities exist only as conduits for suburban traffic" and thus are NOT entitled to their own viability.

[Gotham Bus Co]

...what more could you expect from Robert Moses...that guy was a bigot who hated people from his own religion.

 

 

The man is known to have hated cities in general (and NYC in particular) as well as minorities. What isn't known is which came first: Did he first hate cities and then hate minorities who lived in them? Or did he first hate minorities and then hate the cities where they lived?

[Nova RTS 9147]

Your reading on Robert Moses is correct - he had all of his bridges and highways designed specifically to preclude subway usage.

 

A few years ago, I saw a PBS documentary on the history of NYC that included an interview with Robert Moses during the hearings on the Cross Bronx Expressway. In that interview, he stated that "cities exist only as conduits for suburban traffic" and thus are NOT entitled to their own viability.

 

The man is known to have hated cities in general (and NYC in particular) as well as minorities. What isn't known is which came first: Did he first hate cities and then hate minorities who lived in them? Or did he first hate minorities and then hate the cities where they lived?

 

I wonder how different this city would be if Robert Moses never rose to prominence. And I believe he probably hated minorities first, which manifested into a hatred of cities.

[Roadcruiser1]

Robert Moses wasn't really bad at first. He helped the poor. Created work during the Great Depression. He built important structures and bridges that was needed. He brought the UN to New York. Then he went bad. For some reason he started hating the minority. He was a Millionare but he allowed his own brother a poor person to starve and beg on the streets. He possibly changed his mothers will so his brother didn't get anything. He didn't allow African Americans WWII veterans to live in a veteran home. He even tried to remove parts of central park for parking lots. This guy end up being a racist and rich bastard. He end up bent on power. In fact this guy wouldn't be allowed to do it today. He didn't have a major in civil engineering, urban planning, or architecture. Still they let this guy do his job in his later years.

[Roadcruiser1]

To be back on topic. The Verrazano would have to retrofitted and part of the spans would have to be replaced for rail traffic. The only option is to build a second bridge or tunnel between Brooklyn and Staten Island. I would support a bridge since it allows traffic and rail traffic.

[checkmatechamp13]

There might be another way. Build a subway line parallel to the SIR and the North Shore Branch. With a new West Shore Line. Create a new rail yard and subway station at Tottenville. Leave the SIR and extend it around Staten Island and create a Staten Island loop. The SIR can help people that use the which uses most of the East Shore Branch but won't run to the Staten Island Ferry. The would serve the Staten Island Ferry and run along the West Shore and North Shore all the way to Tottenville.

 

I don't see what you are saying. Are you saying that we should replace the Mainline SIR that exists now with a subway (which is prohibitively expenive)? Also, why (and how) would the bypass the Staten Island Ferry, if that is where all of the buses feed into?

[Kamen Rider]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[Roadcruiser1]

A bridge or a tunnel between Brooklyn and Staten Island would only have access to the track between Grasmere and Clifton. One line can't access the the ferry terminal because it's running towards Grasmere and has to continue down south to Tottenville. The other one would run to Clifton and up to the terminal. That way it could access the North Shore Branch if it's ever reactivated and then run down a new line down the West Shore which connects to Tottenville.

[LRG]

The Staten Island Railway will never share space with the subway. It would have to be eliminated as a railway, which means Staten Island Railway would no longer exist, reguardless of what you call any succeding enitity.

 

The line would have to be legaly abandonded or, in some other way, have the property transfered so that the FRA status would be removed. In the long run, leaving the line alone and building new routes to other places is the easier option.

 

but last time I checked, the SIR isn't even under FRA regulations that strictly...it's under a waiver.

[checkmatechamp13]

A bridge or a tunnel between Brooklyn and Staten Island would only have access to the track between Grasmere and Clifton. One line can't access the the ferry terminal because it's running towards Grasmere and has to continue down south to Tottenville. The other one would run to Clifton and up to the terminal. That way it could access the North Shore Branch if it's ever reactivated and then run down a new line down the West Shore which connects to Tottenville.

 

But the problem is that, if that were to happen, there would be no direct service between St George and the stations between Grasmere and Tottenville.

The plans for the line call for the train to go over to the Sea Beach Line and go from there down Fort Hamilton Parkway through Borough Park and to the Culver Line. I think you were thinking that the line would go via 86th Street and over the Verrazanno-Narrows Bridge instead of through a seperate tunnel.

[Kerri78rider]

I think the Staten Island Train should go into brooklyn and the last stop would be Whitehall Street in Manhattan to get a connection with the 1 train as well as the R instead of taking the ferry. I say have two different trains on staten island, The train's on the hour and half hour mark will make the stops on Staten Island all the way up to Grasmere and then they will have a way to get to 86 street in Bay Ridge and make all stops in brooklyn and once it gets to Mahattan the last stop will be Whitehall Street so commuters can have easy access to the 1 and R Train. The Train's that leave on the Quarter to and the Quarter after mark will just be local train on staten island. But the thing is there will no express train at all on Staten Island.