Hope for MADE IN USA?

[Nova RTS 9147]

Your argument completely ignores the mega-conglomerates who outsource their jobs overseas to companies to make the same products Americans were making, and the only reason it was done was to take advantage of workers in countries that don't have unions or pensions or the same salaries as American workers do. You completely pass the blame off the corporations and assume that its all the American consumers.

[Trainmaster5]

Exactly. And not only that, it's where the money goes once the corporation has it.

 

It doesn't stay in the corporation.

 

It doesn't get reinvested in the business.

 

It doesn't lead to expansion, and new jobs.

 

It goes into the executives' pockets.

 

Because the corporation would pay high taxes if it kept it. But it can write the money off taxes as pay for employees.

 

Then the rich can use their loopholes to avoid paying taxes and get richer.

 

All on the backs of you the consumer, and you the working class.

 

And most are too dumb or unwilling to see what is right in front of their eyes.

 

So they blame the unions.

 

Because the corporate controlled media tells them to.

 

Perhaps they're still enamored with the party and theory of "trickle down". It might take some people longer to realize that the only thing trickling down is the urine these genius corporate leaders have aimed squarely at the average American's head. As a history buff I never thought that the American people were gullible enough to believe " The Big Lie" as practiced by Goebbels and the Nazi Germany regime but apparently I was wrong. The one where you put out a preposterous story and if you repeat it long enough people start to believe it's true. It appears that certain elements of the media and some politicians have perfected the practice and are running the same game on today's America. Just my opinion though. Carry on.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Your argument completely ignores the mega-conglomerates who outsource their jobs overseas to companies to make the same products Americans were making, and the only reason it was done was to take advantage of workers in countries that don't have unions or pensions or the same salaries as American workers do. You completely pass the blame off the corporations and assume that its all the American consumers.

 

I've studied trade agreements like NAFTA in and out in college, esp. since I was Spanish major. In theory NAFTA should work for everyone, but it just helps the multinational companies exploit cheap labor like you said. However, what I'm saying is had the American consumer made a big stink about the whole outsourcing thing, politicians like Bill Clinton would've perhaps thought twice before endorsing and later signing the NAFTA agreement.

[Roadcruiser1]

[SubwayGuy]

Im not saying you're wrong, but how can people buy American when American companies are having their things built in other countries? Normally one hand does wash the other, but when one hand has an increasing disadvantage, the other hand can only do so much.

 

There are plenty of companies whose entire mantra is 100% produced in America.

 

Americans need to, for their own sake, take the extra time necessary to locate these companies and purchase their products instead of from competitors that use cheap foreign labor.

 

Try this for starters:

http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/about.html

[Via Garibaldi 8]

There are plenty of companies whose entire mantra is 100% produced in America.

 

Americans need to, for their own sake, take the extra time necessary to locate these companies and purchase their products instead of from competitors that use cheap foreign labor.

 

Try this for starters:

http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/about.html

 

I'll admit that I do buy some of my items from Western Europe (Belgium, Holland, Italy, France, Spain, Germany, Greece, etc.) because the quality standards are very high in Western Europe but now w/more and more American companies making their products here, there isn't an excuse really not to buy American. I'd say at least 70% of what I buy now is entirely "MADE IN USA", with just about all of the remaining coming from Western Europe and Japan (i.e. laptops and cameras).

[Joel Up Front]

The only American bought products I still have are my XBox (and even that I'm not sure of) and my laptop.

 

For the record:

 

-Because my family is Asian, we buy mostly Asian food products. My parents and cousin who lives with us also all drive Toyotas (and God help you if any of you make an acceleration pedal joke).

-Just because the average person doesn't "Buy (all) American" doesn't mean we're evil or don't like America.

-Our subway cars and buses are all from other countries (Canada and Japan for subway cars, the former for commuter rail cars). Just because we buy from them doesn't mean the hates America, either.

-People would still bitch about labor laws if companies magically brought all their precious manufacturing jobs back to the USA.

-If China was to lose all the stuff we had made there, they'd only be stuck with their cheap knockoffs and poorly made products we so associate them with.

-You're only hurting yourself with how you don't want to buy anything not made here. Quality > quantity.

[SubwayGuy]

-Because my family is Asian, we buy mostly Asian food products. My parents and cousin who lives with us also all drive Toyotas (and God help you if any of you make an acceleration pedal joke).

 

Are you an American citizen? If you claim to be then America's interests should be more important (and as though they were your own) than the interests of what you define as "asian". If this is not the case, then I'm sorry to report that you are not American at all. Citizens of a nation are supposed to put that nation first, since it is their home. If China took over the US tomorrow they would not care one bit about your support of them because to them you are just another American. ALL of the hyphenated Americans out there need to take note of this when deciding where their priorities lie. The fact that your family is of Asian origin means downright diddly in the scheme of things. Go back far enough in most family trees in the US and you will find other influence somewhere. However, being an American trumps all other influence. Something can be of secondary importance but America always comes first. If not...then you're...not an American.

 

To use Godwin's law, does that mean you believe all German-Americans should have supported Germany during World Wars I and II? Should all Japanese-Americans have supported the attack on Pearl Harbor? Should Iranian-Americans have supported the taking of the hostages?

 

-Just because the average person doesn't "Buy (all) American" doesn't mean we're evil or don't like America.

 

OK here you might have a point, but there is a very serious reason to buy American (or at least from developed nations) that should resonate with every American citizen who takes pride in this nation. Go to Europe and those countries involved in beer brewing proudly boast their top national brands throughout each country. The US used to take pride in its cars. They're making a comeback. The US still makes the best hardware and industrial machines on the market. These are things to take pride in. The US still makes good clothing. Once an American is informed of the need to buy American to support our economy here in the face of SERIOUS foreign threats, there is only one right choice to make.

 

-Our subway cars and buses are all from other countries (Canada and Japan for subway cars, the former for commuter rail cars). Just because we buy from them doesn't mean the hates America, either.

 

No, however it points to the lack of any US railcar manufacturers. I know everyone here is a transportation buff but buses and trains are less than a drop in the bucket of the trade imbalance and human rights imbalances that are undermining our economy...to point to buses and trains as an example is a very poor one.

 

-People would still bitch about labor laws if companies magically brought all their precious manufacturing jobs back to the USA.

 

That's because over the past 30 years worker's rights have gradually eroded at the hands of corporations and rich executives who even though they have the world still want more, and specifically more of what you have. They outsourced American jobs to make more money for themselves. They picked countries that do not have a human rights record, thereby forcing the American workforce to compete with the modern day equivalent of slavery. Slavery always wins because it costs next to nothing. So the response by the stupid and uninformed these days seems to be to strip away over 100 years of progress in worker's rights that was established for a reason against the oppressive aristocracy of the 1800's that dominated post-Reconstruction America. And doing that would put most of the United States in a worse state. The goal is to get better as a nation, not worse. "Competing" with de facto slavery by making our citizens de facto indentured servants is not EVER a solution.

 

If the jobs came back and workers started to see more rights again at the expense of their masters (rich corporate types), then you would see and hear a lot less complaining (well except from the aristocracy which ALWAYS complains). The ironic part of all that is they'd still be rich, just not as rich as now.

 

-If China was to lose all the stuff we had made there, they'd only be stuck with their cheap knockoffs and poorly made products we so associate them with.

 

Their problem not ours...if their government thinks it has all the answers then let them find a solution to that problem, the US has a duty to its citizens first before anyone else's. Taxpayer money is not charity, nor is one nation another nation's donor or chief consumer...if you feel so strongly about the issue then you are free to donate your money or higher quality goods to a charity that helps a China stuck with cheap knockoffs by providing money or better alternatives but it is NOT my duty the taxpayer to help foreigners, and I do NOT choose to support their atrocious treatment of their workers with money and simultaneously making it more possible for that system to begin to return here and undo over 100 years of progress.

 

-You're only hurting yourself with how you don't want to buy anything not made here. Quality > quantity.

 

Quality is EXACTLY the reason to buy many of the products still made in the USA. Even if they cost more. 1 of something good is still better than 5 of something bad.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I have no problem buying from Japan because they make things of quality for the most part. Their quality standards are in the realm of Western Europe or even here. I will even consider buying from Korea before buying from China. They are just too many toxic poor quality things coming from China, and it's a shame because before all of this exploitation of China started, I'm sure they did make some things of quality.

 

I have quite a few products from Japan (i.e. laptop and some very high quality stoneware plates and bowls as well). :cool:

 

But like I said, I buy a ton from the U.S. now... Basically all of my pants and jeans are American made with a few pants from Italy. My shoes and sneakers I normally get from Italy mainly because they're more comfy and stylish than American made shoes like Alden or Allen Edmonds and all of my daily things that I need are American made simply because since I buy natural products like toothpaste, deodorant and such, a lot of that stuff comes from Maine and they proudly display the Made in USA label on their products so I support them as a result, especially some of these American companies fall into the realm of "small businesses", which we certainly need if we want to bring the economy out of this recession.

 

What is great also is that if you shop around you can get some great deals on "Made in USA" products. Yesterday or shall I say Saturday, I bought just about all American made products from the supermarket and got 2-for-1 deals and such.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Quality is EXACTLY the reason to buy many of the products still made in the USA. Even if they cost more. 1 of something good is still better than 5 of something bad.

 

I totally agree. We need to get out of this mentality of buying 10 of something that's cheap and wasting when we can buy one of something that is of quality and that will last. In the long run you'll actually come out cheaper as you'll find that you spend less money in the long run having to replace that product if of course you take care of it.

[CenSin]

One of the funny things about America is that it's actually a mix of many different cultures—a mix that can be found nowhere else in the world—and if you excluded parts of it or blended them together to make a uniform whole then it wouldn't be American. I understand a lot of people like to push "America" to Americans, but there is a distinction to be made between products being produced in America and products that are American since it's one thing to choose between two products that differ only by quality and location of production (high quality American versus Chinese knockoff), and it's another thing to have a preference for products that happen to be produced in a certain location. If I have a taste for a certain brand of Italian wine, it's my prerogative to buy from Italy and you cannot induce me to go buy Californian wine simply because it's produced in America. The way I see it, America should never be defined by itself but by other nations, cultures, ethnicities, and even products or services. To standardize on what everyone's preferences, beliefs, values, practices, and attitudes should be is simply un-American.

 

On a side note: I'm a big fan of Asian fashion, entertainment, and other culturally-relevant products; the day they are all produced locally will be the day I stop paying shipping costs, foreign taxes, and profits to overseas suppliers.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

One of the funny things about America is that it's actually a mix of many different cultures—a mix that can be found nowhere else in the world—and if you excluded parts of it or blended them together to make a uniform whole then it wouldn't be American. I understand a lot of people like to push "America" to Americans, but there is a distinction to be made between products being produced in America and products that are American since it's one thing to choose between two products that differ only by quality and location of production (high quality American versus Chinese knockoff), and it's another thing to have a preference for products that happen to be produced in a certain location. If I have a taste for a certain brand of Italian wine, it's my prerogative to buy from Italy and you cannot induce me to go buy Californian wine simply because it's produced in America. The way I see it, America should never be defined by itself but by other nations, cultures, ethnicities, and even products or services. To standardize on what everyone's preferences, beliefs, values, practices, and attitudes should be is simply un-American.

 

On a side note: I'm a big fan of Asian fashion, entertainment, and other culturally-relevant products; the day they are all produced locally will be the day I stop paying shipping costs, foreign taxes, and profits to overseas suppliers.

 

 

It's funny how everyone else can practice protectionism except for us. We're just suppose to import the cheap crap from overseas so that we can show how diverse and "American" we are. I beg to differ...

[CenSin]

It's funny how everyone else can practice protectionism except for us. We're just suppose to import the cheap crap from overseas so that we can show how diverse and "American" we are. I beg to differ...

Like I said: they day an American company produces the kind of products I want will be the day I stop looking overseas. I don't argue for moving all production out of the country, but what got me in SubwayGuy's post was: "The US still makes good clothing"; and I saw it as a statement akin to "sacrifice your identity to be American". They can raise taxes on imported goods if they have to, but never tell me to buy what the "average American" is supposed to buy.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Like I said: they day an American company produces the kind of products I want will be the day I stop looking overseas. I don't argue for moving all production out of the country.

 

You have a point when it comes to wines... I'll drink the occasional California Riesling which can be quite good, but I prefer it's Austrian counterpart and there is nothing that can top a good Côte du Rhône white wine from France or a Müller from Northern Italy and of course it's a toss up between a good prosecco from Italy and a nice sparkling white wine from France. Just my takes, so I'm with you on the wine thing... However, what we do produce, most of it is of quality. There is still nothing like a good pair of "Made in USA" jeans. Italian jeans come close, but just aren't the same. The American jeans just last longer. :cool:

[SubwayGuy]

One of the funny things about America is that it's actually a mix of many different cultures—a mix that can be found nowhere else in the world—and if you excluded parts of it or blended them together to make a uniform whole then it wouldn't be American. I understand a lot of people like to push "America" to Americans, but there is a distinction to be made between products being produced in America and products that are American since it's one thing to choose between two products that differ only by quality and location of production (high quality American versus Chinese knockoff), and it's another thing to have a preference for products that happen to be produced in a certain location. If I have a taste for a certain brand of Italian wine, it's my prerogative to buy from Italy and you cannot induce me to go buy Californian wine simply because it's produced in America. The way I see it, America should never be defined by itself but by other nations, cultures, ethnicities, and even products or services. To standardize on what everyone's preferences, beliefs, values, practices, and attitudes should be is simply un-American.

 

On a side note: I'm a big fan of Asian fashion, entertainment, and other culturally-relevant products; the day they are all produced locally will be the day I stop paying shipping costs, foreign taxes, and profits to overseas suppliers.

 

America may be a diverse nation but that ABSOLUTELY does not mean that people should not put America first. This is something I really have a problem with. What makes America America is the concept that REGARDLESS of your national origin you are welcome here. We embrace diversity with what is known as a MELTING POT. No matter who you are and what you look like, as an American citizen you are welcome here. Then you assimilate with all the other cultures gathered here and you become something new, something more dynamic...an American. You do not come here to hold on to the traditional way of life of a bunch of ancestors, and the traditional values of your "culture" (whatever it may be), while fighting off every single thing that is different. That's not assimilation, it's exclusionary and it divides a nation that was not founded on that principle.

 

What makes Latin-Americans the same as African-Americans and Asian-Americans and European-Americans is the word "American" at the end. If you don't believe that, then you're not an American. You're an American-Asian. Which is to say you are not an American at all.

 

Like I said: they day an American company produces the kind of products I want will be the day I stop looking overseas. I don't argue for moving all production out of the country, but what got me in SubwayGuy's post was: "The US still makes good clothing"; and I saw it as a statement akin to "sacrifice your identity to be American". They can raise taxes on imported goods if they have to, but never tell me to buy what the "average American" is supposed to buy.

 

I have no problem with anyone who purchases a good that is not available in America from overseas...at least as long as it is in a developed nation with a history of human rights. It is not as though there isn't precedent for this before...look at the requirements of diamond retailers to prove that they are not exploiting African conflicts when their diamonds go to market, after all.

 

All that anyone here is saying is that where there are two COMPARABLE goods, one foreign and one American, it is the duty of every American citizen in the current political and economic climate to choose the American good. If the goods are not comparable, then go with the one you're looking for. As long as it's made in a country with a condition of human rights.

 

The point that I am trying to make with the statement above you've decided to conveniently paraphrase, is that regardless of your national origin, Your identity IS as an American so you don't have to sacrifice anything. That can include understanding your history, and your past, and respecting it, but at the end of the day you're an American first, or you're not at all. When you go overseas, regardless of where you go, you will be thought of as an American...so why the stigma of embracing that at home? Everyone's personal experiences define who they are as a person but they do not define who they are as a whole. Being a hyphenated American makes you unique, but it does not make you anything other than American. And if you think it does, that makes you un-American.

 

Your understanding of your family's history and past absolutely, 110%, CANNOT allow you to support the interests of whatever you claim to be your "motherland" over America itself. Because if that's the case then why are you in America instead of there? This is your home, support it, and the rights it gives you to explore your ancestors' national origin freely.

[CenSin]

America may be a diverse nation but that ABSOLUTELY does not mean that people should not put America first. This is something I really have a problem with. What makes America America is the concept that REGARDLESS of your national origin you are welcome here. We embrace diversity with what is known as a MELTING POT. No matter who you are and what you look like, as an American citizen you are welcome here. Then you assimilate with all the other cultures gathered here and you become something new, something more dynamic...an American. You do not come here to hold on to the traditional way of life of a bunch of ancestors, and the traditional values of your "culture" (whatever it may be), while fighting off every single thing that is different. That's not assimilation, it's exclusionary and it divides a nation that was not founded on that principle.

 

What makes Latin-Americans the same as African-Americans and Asian-Americans and European-Americans is the word "American" at the end. If you don't believe that, then you're not an American. You're an American-Asian. Which is to say you are not an American at all.

 

 

 

I have no problem with anyone who purchases a good that is not available in America from overseas...at least as long as it is in a developed nation with a history of human rights. It is not as though there isn't precedent for this before...look at the requirements of diamond retailers to prove that they are not exploiting African conflicts when their diamonds go to market, after all.

 

All that anyone here is saying is that where there are two COMPARABLE goods, one foreign and one American, it is the duty of every American citizen in the current political and economic climate to choose the American good. If the goods are not comparable, then go with the one you're looking for. As long as it's made in a country with a condition of human rights.

 

The point that I am trying to make with the statement above you've decided to conveniently paraphrase, is that regardless of your national origin, Your identity IS as an American so you don't have to sacrifice anything. That can include understanding your history, and your past, and respecting it, but at the end of the day you're an American first, or you're not at all. When you go overseas, regardless of where you go, you will be thought of as an American...so why the stigma of embracing that at home? Everyone's personal experiences define who they are as a person but they do not define who they are as a whole. Being a hyphenated American makes you unique, but it does not make you anything other than American. And if you think it does, that makes you un-American.

 

Your understanding of your family's history and past absolutely, 110%, CANNOT allow you to support the interests of whatever you claim to be your "motherland" over America itself. Because if that's the case then why are you in America instead of there? This is your home, support it, and the rights it gives you to explore your ancestors' national origin freely.

I agree with everything except cultural assimilation. There is nothing wrong with being exclusionary. While a mainstream culture does exist, it's characteristic of the American population that pockets of subcultures exist. America was founded on choices and the existence of distinct unassimilated cultures makes these choices available. In fact, I will go as far as say that people should try to be as different as possible to fully live up to the label "American." The existence of significantly different groups of religions, ethnicities, and cultures is American. Respecting the individual and not the collective is American. "Extremism in the cause of liberty" is American.

 

What does that mean? Well: I was born here and raised by Chinese parents, and now I dress Korean, eat Arab and Indian, watch Japanese, and talk English. I refuse to make one third of my diet junk food, dress in Hollister and Abercrombie & Fitch, shop at Walmart, and above all—sit in front of a television all day long watching football. My parents don't even consider me to be Chinese. And by exercising my liberty to be radically different, I consider myself more American than anyone who pushes one way, always.

[SubwayGuy]

I agree with everything except cultural assimilation. There is nothing wrong with being exclusionary.

 

There is absolutely something wrong with being exclusionary in any situation whatsoever. Because being exclusionary is not American.

 

Freedom is something that is extremely misunderstood by people these days who seem to be unable to grasp the concept that one's freedom only allows them to be free in such a way that no one else's freedom is impaired. Therefore it is not freedom to exclude others, particularly fellow citizens, just because of a national origin that is long since dead and buried.

 

Assimilation is the goal of America and always has been. Read up on your American history and you will see that's the case. Why do you think we no longer hear frequently about "Irish American" issues and "Italian American" issues in the news nowadays? Because the overwhelming majority of those people have assimilated into American culture.

 

No one should "try" to be different, that's the problem...too many people "trying" to be different. People ought to just be themselves, and as American citizens, uphold the best interests for this country out of a sense of pride in it. Not because they "have" to.

 

America includes freedom of thought and freedom of speech, but it does not include freedom of action because freedom of action often restricts the liberty of others. Read up on your American history and you will see countless examples of this in place. This is why the KKK is still allowed to exist, but why any act of racism is treated as a hate crime.

 

No one is telling anyone to give up pride in their own culture...in fact what is being said is that pride in one's culture should not prevent someone from becoming American, nor should it cause that person to reject other cultures which are part of the COMPLETE American experience.

 

If you can embrace all of those other cultures for food, TV, language, and clothing...then why can't you support America's workforce - your fellow citizens - against a pretty serious foreign threat which threatens to roll working conditions back 100 years to the days of AMERICAN sweatshops?

[CenSin]

If you can embrace all of those other cultures for food, TV, language, and clothing...then why can't you support America's workforce - your fellow citizens - against a pretty serious foreign threat which threatens to roll working conditions back 100 years to the days of AMERICAN sweatshops?

When did I say I did not support the American work force? Where are you picking up this anti-American labor sentiment from? I was only attacking and defending against your insistence that I should behave a certain way.

 

There is absolutely something wrong with being exclusionary in any situation whatsoever. Because being exclusionary is not American.

 

Freedom is something that is extremely misunderstood by people these days who seem to be unable to grasp the concept that one's freedom only allows them to be free in such a way that no one else's freedom is impaired. Therefore it is not freedom to exclude others, particularly fellow citizens, just because of a national origin that is long since dead and buried.

What is exclusion? What's wrong with a smaller group choosing to excuse themselves from a larger mainstream group? If three people left a crowd to form their own group, are they excluding the crowd, is the crowd excluding them, or did they simply cause the existence of one large group and one small group? Whose freedom is impaired when two groups are created? Would you not say that Jews have the right to maintain their religious identities? I simply extend that right to cultural identity.

 

America includes freedom of thought and freedom of speech, but it does not include freedom of action because freedom of action often restricts the liberty of others. Read up on your American history and you will see countless examples of this in place. This is why the KKK is still allowed to exist, but why any act of racism is treated as a hate crime.

Name one instance where I suggested a certain action that infringes on the rights of others. I do not espouse any ideology that promotes infringing on the rights of others …unless eating Arab, or watching Japanese unintentionally causes Americans to die. And in a far-fetched scenario, you may be right: me eating Arab food causes just enough profits to be lost from a pork-producing American company that one person will be laid off, starve to death, or commit suicide. …but let's be realistic here. What is the physical action I'm taking that so insults your pride as an American?

 

No one is telling anyone to give up pride in their own culture...in fact what is being said is that pride in one's culture should not prevent someone from becoming American, nor should it cause that person to reject other cultures which are part of the COMPLETE American experience.

I'll give you credit for acknowledging that cultural pride is still American, but I maintain that exercising my liberty to behave differently (and thus, being myself) is also American and you telling me to incorporate elements other cultures is infringing on my right to my own preferences. With that said, you have not really provided any examples of what a typical American should be doing in their daily lives besides the obvious: shopping American, saluting the flag, knowing the National Anthem, signing up for military service, etc. I'd like you to make clear what is it that I should be doing to be more "American" in your eyes and why the hell it is to the detriment of others if I choose to do something else. I'll make it clear that I'm not espousing hatred or physical action against other groups, but exercising the right to be in my own distinct group.

 

No one should "try" to be different, that's the problem...too many people "trying" to be different. People ought to just be themselves, and as American citizens, uphold the best interests for this country out of a sense of pride in it. Not because they "have" to.

Being American (in your sense of the word) is exactly what's wrong with many youth in America. They're losing their cultural identity. Where I work, few of the youth can speak proper Chinese nor read it. Heck, a lot of them have lost pride in their own culture because they don't even know it. Only a constant influx of immigrants maintains the Chinese identity here; without it there would be a net loss of cultural diversity—something America was founded on.

 

 

With all of the above said, I think some people feel like they are the authority on being American. American identity has no regulating authority—only the ever-changing diverse elements that define it.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Being American (in your sense of the word) is exactly what's wrong with many youth in America. They're losing their cultural identity. Where I work, few of the youth can speak proper Chinese nor read it. Heck, a lot of them have lost pride in their own culture because they don't even know it. Only a constant influx of immigrants maintains the Chinese identity here; without it there would be a net loss of cultural diversity—something America was founded on.

 

I sure as heck have maintained my Italian culture as well as the languages that I speak (Italian and Spanish) and am still American. I do admit that it can be difficult to do that though. I'm fortunate to have Italian friends from Italy and some Italian-American friends who also speak Italian, as most Italian-Americans my age don't speak Italian fluently. Of course all of my Latino friends speak Spanish so even if I wasn't a linguist, I could still keep up my culture and keep up the languages that I speak. I think it comes down to having a balance and understanding who you are. I know that I'm not fully Italian, nor am I fully American, but I'm sort a mix of both, a hybrid of sorts and that's what is sort of fun, but also challenging at times, so in a way I understand where you're coming from. Perhaps you don't feel like you quite belong in either world...

[Joel Up Front]

The US used to take pride in its cars. They're making a comeback

 

Now that we did to ourselves. I do miss the era of huge displacement big block V8s in every car the USA pumped out, because that's when it kicked ass. Government regulation and godawful emissions and safety laws saw foreign cars slowly creep in, and for other manufacturers to work any problems out in their cars. Look at the Corolla and how it came in right at the middle of the American automotive dark age. The government overexaggerating about a few peoples' Toyotas having problems to bolster American car sales? I don't know what to think of that.

 

There's a reason why people traded in all these American cars from the 1990s for others in 2009...

[SubwayGuy]

When did I say I did not support the American work force? Where are you picking up this anti-American labor sentiment from? I was only attacking and defending against your insistence that I should behave a certain way.

 

You are saying that you think people should embrace their differences at the risk of destroying national unity and devolving into a series of ethnic fiefdoms in the vain of medieval Germany, and that in embracing those differences they should buy goods made in their motherlands which will destroy what is left of the American production workforce...

 

What is exclusion? What's wrong with a smaller group choosing to excuse themselves from a larger mainstream group? If three people left a crowd to form their own group, are they excluding the crowd, is the crowd excluding them, or did they simply cause the existence of one large group and one small group? Whose freedom is impaired when two groups are created? Would you not say that Jews have the right to maintain their religious identities? I simply extend that right to cultural identity.

 

You seem to be so hung up on the idea of identity as something apart from being American. I've explained this to you three times now and you still aren't listening to anything I've said. People can embrace what makes them unique without allowing it to define them like a stereotype. What unifies everyone is the fact that they are American. If they are not unified by that one common thread, they are not unified. They are a bunch of divided people who don't know each other and don't get along, and who only identify with their group. No country can be productive that way.

 

Name one instance where I suggested a certain action that infringes on the rights of others. I do not espouse any ideology that promotes infringing on the rights of others …unless eating Arab, or watching Japanese unintentionally causes Americans to die. And in a far-fetched scenario, you may be right: me eating Arab food causes just enough profits to be lost from a pork-producing American company that one person will be laid off, starve to death, or commit suicide. …but let's be realistic here. What is the physical action I'm taking that so insults your pride as an American?

 

It's the fact that you insist everyone has to identify with their "motherland" over America. America comes first, all other countries come second.

 

I'll give you credit for acknowledging that cultural pride is still American, but I maintain that exercising my liberty to behave differently (and thus, being myself) is also American and you telling me to incorporate elements other cultures is infringing on my right to my own preferences. With that said, you have not really provided any examples of what a typical American should be doing in their daily lives besides the obvious: shopping American, saluting the flag, knowing the National Anthem, signing up for military service, etc. I'd like you to make clear what is it that I should be doing to be more "American" in your eyes and why the hell it is to the detriment of others if I choose to do something else. I'll make it clear that I'm not espousing hatred or physical action against other groups, but exercising the right to be in my own distinct group.

 

Again, you are hearing what you want to hear not what I am saying. Once again, and for the third time, you and every other American are free to do whatever you want. However, your sympathies should (note the non use of the word "required") lie with American causes above foreign ones. By buying goods that are not produced here you are sending money out of the country and encouraging greedy corporations to keep outsourcing American jobs to produce goods that can be produced here somewhere else in the name of profits. When you do this, and when millions of other so called Americans do the same thing, you get the systemic problem in place today in which America imports 5x as many goods from China as it exports, sending American wealth out of this country that will not come back until things change.

 

I've never said anything about military service regarding this issue so try to stick to the facts of what I am saying and not making things up or putting words in my mouth.

 

Being American (in your sense of the word) is exactly what's wrong with many youth in America.

 

This is where you are 100% wrong. How can it be wrong for youth to behave in a way consistent with their own nation in...their own nation?

 

They're losing their cultural identity. Where I work, few of the youth can speak proper Chinese nor read it. Heck, a lot of them have lost pride in their own culture because they don't even know it. Only a constant influx of immigrants maintains the Chinese identity here; without it there would be a net loss of cultural diversity—something America was founded on.

 

So what? Maybe they don't give a shit about holding on to long ago traditions. Maybe they want to fit in with the people they work and go to school with. Maybe they think being American is good enough. Maybe they have other things they want to learn in their spare time. They are redefining their identity, not losing it.

 

With all of the above said, I think some people feel like they are the authority on being American. American identity has no regulating authority—only the ever-changing diverse elements that define it.

 

Exactly...ever changing diverse elements as has been the case for 234 1/2 years. You are advocating static, nonchanging cultural elements that are segregated from each other. And that's something that goes against the very nature of America as a "melting pot" which is why it came to exist in the first place. Puritans seeking religious freedom from the English church in Massachusetts. People seeking religious freedom from the Puritans in Rhode Island. People coming over for profits in Virginia. When push came to shove, all were equally welcome to ALL the benefits of citizenship they won during the Revolution and they put their similarities ahead of their differences and became AMERICAN.

 

I don't think I'm any authority on being American, I'm just sick of reading this bulls*** on this forum from hyphenated Americans over and over again bashing this country and everything about it, yet when they can do something very small to help fix it they can't even do that and instead insist on supporting some "culture" their ancestors CHOSE to leave in the name of coming here in the first place. And if that "vision" truly came to pass, America would be segregated into ethnic and racial fiefdoms like medieval Germany. America has already tried segregation once...it didn't work out so good. If anything, minorities should be the LAST ones arguing in favor of segregation of cultures because it inherently comes with inequalities that never benefit the minority. Again, history is the guide.

[SubwayGuy]

Now that we did to ourselves. I do miss the era of huge displacement big block V8s in every car the USA pumped out, because that's when it kicked ass. Government regulation and godawful emissions and safety laws saw foreign cars slowly creep in, and for other manufacturers to work any problems out in their cars. Look at the Corolla and how it came in right at the middle of the American automotive dark age. The government overexaggerating about a few peoples' Toyotas having problems to bolster American car sales? I don't know what to think of that.

 

There's a reason why people traded in all these American cars from the 1990s for others in 2009...

 

Yes, that is true, because for a while there the American companies were not making a comparable product (SUVs vs. compact fuel efficient sedans). But now they've adapted (finally) to the change in demand, and it's fair to say that Americans should take pride in their cars and buy American where the options are comparable. They can't be required to do it, but they should do it.

[CenSin]

If that's your view of being American, than you stick to it. I'll stick to my own. I'm adamant about distinctions being necessary to defining America; it won't be just another homogeneous country out of several hundred, but a mottled one. I say the same of my thought that loss of cultural identity is what's wrong with the youth today; consistency, conformity, and normality are wrong.

 

And for the record, I don't even like China. I don't understand how you can claim I support my motherland (since I buy from Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Spain, Italy, France… and of course, this country). Many mainland Chinese businesses, short of outright murdering their customers and workers, lack the most basic of ethics and I would harbor a guilty conscience if I supported that. A soldier I met at a bank a few days ago told me his experiences in China, and it's much worse than the government would like outsiders know. A child with a huge bleeding cavity in his leg was seen out in the streets while a tour bus was passing by. An old lady with rotting teeth begged the tourists for money. The tour guide was keen on staying silent about it because if he said anything out of line, he'd disappear the next day. For a country called the People's Republic of China, it's ironic that it isn't about the people but the power-hungry bastards.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

If that's your view of being American, than you stick to it. I'll stick to my own. I'm adamant about distinctions being necessary to defining America; it won't be just another homogeneous country out of several hundred, but a mottled one. I say the same of my thought that loss of cultural identity is what's wrong with the youth today; consistency, conformity, and normality are wrong.

 

And for the record, I don't even like China. I don't understand how you can claim I support my motherland (since I buy from Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Spain, Italy, France… and of course, this country). Many mainland Chinese businesses, short of outright murdering their customers and workers, lack the most basic of ethics and I would harbor a guilty conscience if I supported that. A soldier I met at a bank a few days ago told me his experiences in China, and it's much worse than the government would like outsiders know. A child with a huge bleeding cavity in his leg was seen out in the streets while a tour bus was passing by. An old lady with rotting teeth begged the tourists for money. The tour guide was keen on staying silent about it because if he said anything out of line, he'd disappear the next day. For a country called the People's Republic of China, it's ironic that it isn't about the people but the power-hungry bastards.

 

China is destroying their country! They are building like crazy, but at the same time they're further polluting their already polluted waters dumping every sort of toxic thing they make into it. They don't even have places to dispose of their garbage properly. They have huge skyscrapers and yet you can see garbage just festering about on the streets not too far from trendy parts of Shanghai and such. It's almost like yeah, we'll manufacture everything and destroy our country and every other country in the process. The gov't seems to have no sort of understanding of putting manufacturing safety procedures in place to protect its own people and that's a big reason why I avoid buying anything from them now. Now I have a Chinese friend from high school that I used to hang out with at his house after school and such and he would have stuff from China that I would gladly eat because it was good quality, but now, if someone gave me something from China, I'd think twice about eating it for fear of it being tainted.

 

Tainted toothpaste, tainted dog food, tainted toys and the list goes on and on. Are people that desperate for "cheap" goods? Apparently so. But what is really troubling is how they've brought a stigma to the country that "Made in China" means poor quality and potential dangerous goods.

[CenSin]

I hope I've cleared up some misunderstandings. I'm not leaning towards being an extremist pro-Chinese individual; I'm advocating a greater variance in the mainstream culture. SubwayGuy, while condemning the fact that the people who want to be closer to traditions of other cultures as narrow-minded, is narrow-mindedly advocating that there is only one way and that everyone should be that way—in other words, proselytizing. That's being hung up on the idea of removing as much "Asian" from "Asian-American" as possible. There's a certain threshold of "Americanness" that I'm willing to adopt, and I'm not going to go out of my way to buy American.

 

China is destroying their country! They are building like crazy, but at the same time they're further polluting their already polluted waters dumping every sort of toxic thing they make into it. They don't even have places to dispose of their garbage properly. They have huge skyscrapers and yet you can see garbage just festering about on the streets not too far from trendy parts of Shanghai and such. It's almost like yeah, we'll manufacture everything and destroy our country and every other country in the process. The gov't seems to have no sort of understanding of putting manufacturing safety procedures in place to protect its own people and that's a big reason why I avoid buying anything from them now. Now I have a Chinese friend from high school that I used to hang out with at his house after school and such and he would have stuff from China that I would gladly eat because it was good quality, but now, if someone gave me something from China, I'd think twice about eating it for fear of it being tainted.

 

Tainted toothpaste, tainted dog food, tainted toys and the list goes on and on. Are people that desperate for "cheap" goods? Apparently so. But what is really troubling is how they've brought a stigma to the country that "Made in China" means poor quality and potential dangerous goods.

As for China, it's not going to get better until some combination social, political, and economic forces conspire to create change.