IRT Pelham Express Service question

[sovetskii52]

There is Pelham Express service between 3rd Avenue-138th Street and Hunts Point Avenue, then again between Hunts Point Avenue and Parkchester, but not between Parchester and Pelham Bay Park. Why not? There is an Express track there. Why not use it for Express service? Is it because of the Westchester Yard?

[Broadway Local]

I think some of the local train is terminating at Parkchester that may cause the to run local between Parkchester and Pelham Bay.

[Guest lance25]

Passenger distribution. If the ran full express between Pelham Bay Park & 3 Av-138 St, the would have to pick up all the passengers between Pelham Bay and Parkchester, as well as the rest of the current local stops on the Pelham line.

 

Just because there is an express track on a line, that doesn't mean there needs to be express service on part or all of said line.

[3rd Avenue El]

can not use the middle track past parkchester because where would it switch back to the local line before pelham bay? and using the express track would also be dangerous because of the dip passing the westchester yard. during evening rush hour lay up trains come out of the westchester yard using the middle track to gain access to the pelham line. can you imagine a and a comin out of westchester yard on the middle track with the bearing down the express track. it would all go

 

BOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!:cry::cry::cry:

 

THE can not use the middle track because it is also the only track to switch from the inbound track to the outbound track at pelham bay. 2 trains are at pelham bay. one needs to switch from the northbound track to the southbound track in order not to wrong rail. how would the train cross the middle track to get to the southbound track without smashing into the idle train. and it can not use the middle track because the local uses it as a layup track to go back to manhattanonce it exits parkchester. hope that answers your question.

[MikeGerald]

Just for reference there are such things as signals and train control features to prevent accidents, and to control the movement of trains. The ramps both before and after the Westchester Yard Access area are no big deal, the #7 line uses such ramps every for decades, as well as the #2 near its current Bronx terminal. When there are G.O.'s on the #6 line, the middle track and those ramps are used - there's nothing to it.

 

The real reason is the passenger distribution issue, and the use of the middle track between Parkchester and Pelham Bay really helps the whole #6 line. The middle track between those stations serve as the terminate and relay operations track for the Parkchester local trains, near Castle Hill Avenue and above as layup tracks for the train yard, and near Pelham Bay Park as a travel route for trains coming to and from the train yard. So this middle track section sees a good amount of "action" - that helps the whole line.

 

Attempting to operate both the Pelham local trains, and the Pelham express trains out of the Pelham Bay Park at the same time at rush hour frequencies of service is a bit much for that terminal. The Pelham Bay Local trains having to take on the brunt of all of the riders at all of the local stations would end up very crowded or over-crowded. Those Pelham Bay express that would only make four stops in the Bronx, would see much lighter ridership. That would not be a good situation, the current situation is better.

 

Mike

[TwoTimer]

Another one of those the express track is there why not use it WAHHHH WAHHHHH

 

Parkchester relays uses M track to turn. Yard leads feed into M track as well. The current setup is as such that it divides the passenger load roughly 50/50. If you stood at 3Av-138 during the rush and looked at the crowds on each train they are roughly equal.

 

And I'm sure there would be some express service right out of Pelham if M track went right into the Pelham station itself... The has service out of Main Street... oh don't remind me, there are three tracks ending in bumper blocks there!

[CenSin]

can not use the middle track past parkchester because where would it switch back to the local line before pelham bay? and using the express track would also be dangerous because of the dip passing the westchester yard. during evening rush hour lay up trains come out of the westchester yard using the middle track to gain access to the pelham line. can you imagine a and a comin out of westchester yard on the middle track with the bearing down the express track. it would all go

 

BOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!:cry::cry::cry:

 

THE can not use the middle track because it is also the only track to switch from the inbound track to the outbound track at pelham bay. 2 trains are at pelham bay. one needs to switch from the northbound track to the southbound track in order not to wrong rail. how would the train cross the middle track to get to the southbound track without smashing into the idle train. and it can not use the middle track because the local uses it as a layup track to go back to manhattanonce it exits parkchester. hope that answers your question.

If a could smash into a without being tripped by a red signal, there are bigger problems to worry about.

[mark1447]

can not use the middle track past parkchester because where would it switch back to the local line before pelham bay? and using the express track would also be dangerous because of the dip passing the westchester yard. during evening rush hour lay up trains come out of the westchester yard using the middle track to gain access to the pelham line. can you imagine a and a comin out of westchester yard on the middle track with the bearing down the express track. it would all go

 

BOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!:cry::cry::cry:

 

THE can not use the middle track because it is also the only track to switch from the inbound track to the outbound track at pelham bay. 2 trains are at pelham bay. one needs to switch from the northbound track to the southbound track in order not to wrong rail. how would the train cross the middle track to get to the southbound track without smashing into the idle train. and it can not use the middle track because the local uses it as a layup track to go back to manhattanonce it exits parkchester. hope that answers your question.

 

 

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.. The can run express to Pelham Bay, there IS a Junction south of Pelham Bay.

 

Only thing is, the runs local due to deadheads using the M track for Westchester Yd.

[lilbluefoxie]

Just because an area has a middle express track, doesnt mean it needs to be used. I believe, (and I dont know what the real reason is) many of those lines have a middle express track for future expansion and flexibility if its ever needed, and also a place to keep train traffic moving in case a train gets stuck or theres track work. It just so happened there was demand for such a service in the case of the <B>/(D), , , and .The (J)/(Z) managed to make use of part of the express segment.

[mark1447]

Just because an area has a middle express track, doesnt mean it needs to be used. I believe, (and I dont know what the real reason is) many of those lines have a middle express track for future expansion and flexibility if its ever needed, and also a place to keep train traffic moving in case a train gets stuck or theres track work. It just so happened there was demand for such a service in the case of the <B>/(D), , , and .The (J)/(Z) managed to make use of part of the express segment.

 

Express tracks are also used for deadhead moves, MOW, G/Os, etc.

[GreatOne2k]

Attempting to operate both the Pelham local trains, and the Pelham express trains out of the Pelham Bay Park at the same time at rush hour frequencies of service is a bit much for that terminal.

Mike

 

During the late PM rush and early evenings (combined 4-5 minute headways) both the local and express do operate to Pelham Bay Park at the same time, both making local stops after Parkchester-East 177th Street

[CenSin]

can not use the middle track past parkchester because where would it switch back to the local line before pelham bay? and using the express track would also be dangerous because of the dip passing the westchester yard. during evening rush hour lay up trains come out of the westchester yard using the middle track to gain access to the pelham line. can you imagine a and a comin out of westchester yard on the middle track with the bearing down the express track. it would all go

 

BOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!:cry::cry::cry:

 

THE can not use the middle track because it is also the only track to switch from the inbound track to the outbound track at pelham bay. 2 trains are at pelham bay. one needs to switch from the northbound track to the southbound track in order not to wrong rail. how would the train cross the middle track to get to the southbound track without smashing into the idle train. and it can not use the middle track because the local uses it as a layup track to go back to manhattanonce it exits parkchester. hope that answers your question.

You also forget that the and run together end-to-end with no problems. Why would only the and not be able to do that?

[TwoTimer]

You also forget that the and run together end-to-end with no problems. Why would only the and not be able to do that?

 

The 3-track terminal at one end helps a lot, and there's nowhere to short turn local trains with any type of regularity either.

[CenSin]

The 3-track terminal at one end helps a lot

Regardless, I used the and the as an example to clearly refute his claim that express and local trains could not run together into the same terminal. I could use numerous other examples, but putting myself in his shoes, this looks the easiest to digest.

 

and there's nowhere to short turn local trains with any type of regularity either.

Willets Point has all the switches necessary for short turns.

[MikeGerald]

During the late PM rush and early evenings (combined 4-5 minute headways) both the local and express do operate to Pelham Bay Park at the same time, both making local stops after Parkchester-East 177th Street

 

The regular operation of the #6 train is as follows - there are #6 trains labeled "Pelham Bay Park" where once they leave the 125th Street station are switched to the middle track to run express toward Parkchester with a stop at Hunts Point. Once these #6 trains labeled "Pelham Bay Park" stat to leave the Parkchester station, they are switched from the middle track to the local track, and make local stops all of the way to Pelham Bay Park.

 

There are also #6 trains labeled "Parkchester", where once they leave the 125th Street station are guided to the local track at the 138th Street-Third Avenue station. These trains make all local stops to the Parkchester station, where once at the station these trains discharge all passengers. The #6 trains labled "Parkchester" then perform a terminate and relay operation with a switch move to the middle track "north" of the Parkchester station, and a return trip with a switch move to the Manhattan-bound local track.

 

Now during the late parts of the evening rush hours, some #6 Parkchester labeled trains will after going out of service at Parkchester will be moved along either the middle track, or the Pelham Bay Park bound local track to the train yard access area north of Westchester Square. The middle track between Parkchester and Pelham Bay Park is used for train terminate and relay operations for the Parkchester station, for train layups and storage, and for train moves to and from the train yard. It is rare for the middle track between the Parkchester and Pelham Bay Park stations to be used for trains carrying passengers, unless it is for a G.O.

 

Now while both Parkchester bound locals, and Pelham Bay Park express trains call be called "Pelham Bay bound" trains -- that does not mean that both sets of trains terminate at Pelham Bay Park - they do not. That is not the "normal practice" at least for the time periods when the middle track express is in operation.

 

During the very late parts of the night's rush hours, when the terminate and relay activity of the Parkchester Station has ceased for the night, will all Bronx bound #6 trains operate local to Pelham Bay Park. There may be a handful of all local trains to Pelham Bay and the last of the Pelham express trains operating on the tracks when the terminate and relay operation at Parkchester shuts down. That is just a transition stage to the all local service for the rest of the night until the mornng rush hours, when Parkchester resumes its operations.

 

Mike

[GreatOne2k]

 

Now while both Parkchester bound locals, and Pelham Bay Park express trains call be called "Pelham Bay bound" trains -- that does not mean that both sets of trains terminate at Pelham Bay Park - they do not. That is not the "normal practice" at least for the time periods when the middle track express is in operation.

 

During the very late parts of the night's rush hours, when the terminate and relay activity of the Parkchester Station has ceased for the night, will all Bronx bound #6 trains operate local to Pelham Bay Park. There may be a handful of all local trains to Pelham Bay and the last of the Pelham express trains operating on the tracks when the terminate and relay operation at Parkchester shuts down. That is just a transition stage to the all local service for the rest of the night until the mornng rush hours, when Parkchester resumes its operations.

 

Mike

 

125 Street Pelham Bay Park

 

6:59 PM 7:24 PM

7:06 PM 7:32 PM

7:10 PM 7:38 PM

7:14 PM 7:42 PM

7:22 PM 7:47 PM

7:26 PM 7:54 PM

7:30 PM 7:57 PM

7:38 PM 8:03 PM

7:45 PM 8:13 PM

7:49 PM 8:16 PM

7:54 PM 8:21 PM

7:59 PM 8:25 PM

8:09 PM 8:34 PM

8:14 PM 8:41 PM

8:19 PM 8:44 PM

8:28 PM 8:53 PM

8:33 PM 9:01 PM

8:38 PM 9:03 PM

8:47 PM 9:12 PM

8:52 PM 9:20 PM

8:57 PM 9:24 PM

 

After 7:08, all trains not going to Pelham Bay Park go OOS. In recent years two trains were extended to Pelham Bay Park to send more trains back to Manhattan increased evening service in 2008.

 

The usual pattern here is every other to Pelham Bay Park, there is even a 14 minute period of all trains to Pelham Bay Park.

[3rd Avenue El]

so are you saying every 14 minutes pelham bay park bound local trains arrive or express trains?

[MikeGerald]

125 Street Pelham Bay Park

 

6:59 PM 7:24 PM

7:06 PM 7:32 PM

7:10 PM 7:38 PM

7:14 PM 7:42 PM

7:22 PM 7:47 PM

7:26 PM 7:54 PM

7:30 PM 7:57 PM

7:38 PM 8:03 PM

7:45 PM 8:13 PM

7:49 PM 8:16 PM

7:54 PM 8:21 PM

7:59 PM 8:25 PM

8:09 PM 8:34 PM

8:14 PM 8:41 PM

8:19 PM 8:44 PM

8:28 PM 8:53 PM

8:33 PM 9:01 PM

8:38 PM 9:03 PM

8:47 PM 9:12 PM

8:52 PM 9:20 PM

8:57 PM 9:24 PM

 

After 7:08, all trains not going to Pelham Bay Park go OOS. In recent years two trains were extended to Pelham Bay Park to send more trains back to Manhattan increased evening service in 2008.

 

The usual pattern here is every other to Pelham Bay Park, there is even a 14 minute period of all trains to Pelham Bay Park.

 

I think that you're agreeing with me, when it is said that "all trains not going to Pelham Bay Park go out of service after 7:08pm" - that those are the Parkchester bound and labeled trains. The "usual pattern pattern here is every other to Pelham Bay Park - means that the "other trains" are the Parkchester bound and labeled trains. In addition, I believe as I said that there is a short period "the transition period" where Parkchester ceases its operations, and Pelham Bay Park comes the terminal for all #6 trains.

 

The point that I was trying to make is that Pelham Bay Park does not serve as the terminal of ALL #6 trains (both local and express) in the same direction for the majority of the rush hour periods, or the periods when there is an express operation. The Pelham Bay #6 line does not function like the #7 line where both local and express trains travel the full pathway of the line, even while noting that some #7 local trains end their run at the 111th Street station. The nearest example on a three-track line would be the very old pattern of the rush hour F local trains to/from Kings Highway, and the F-trains to/from Coney Island, where the Coney Island F-trains decades ago ran middle track express rush hours.

 

I hope that I am clear.

Mike

[GreatOne2k]

In addition, I believe as I said that there is a short period "the transition period" where Parkchester ceases its operations, and Pelham Bay Park comes the terminal for all #6 trains.

Mike

 

During the transition period, Pelham Bay Park does not become the terminal for all #6 trains, only about 2/3 of service (except for a period of 14 minutes between 7:45-7:59). The last train leaving Parkchester-E 177 St before closing also terminates there at 9:01pm and lays up.

 

Everything else we agree on.

[MikeGerald]

Thanks for clarification. All is well.

Mike

[Rell]

I also believe there are a FEW locals to Pelham Bay, but not many.

The point basically made already is that during PM Rush go to Pelham Bay Park via Express,

and all (save a select few) trains go to Parkchester via Local.

If the went to Pelham via the express track after P'chester, then the local stops Castle Hill Av - Buhre Av wouldn't be served (save the few aforementioned trains) during PM rush.

If the terminal was set up in a different way, and the locals were sent to PBP, then it would be possible. But not the way it is now.

[MikeGerald]

The 3-track terminal at one end helps a lot, and there's nowhere to short turn local trains with any type of regularity either.

 

The quoted passage above is referring to the #7 Flushing line. There are places to "short turn" trains on the Flushing line, one is 111th Street and that is used during the rush hours, and the other is Willets Point-Shea Stadium (now Citifield), often noted on older train schedules.

 

Purely just for reference, on the #7 line, and I am talking about the #7 only - not all of the #7 local trains travel to and from Times Square to Flushing. For decades during the rush hours, about half of the #7 local trains run between Times Square and 111th Street. The 111th Street station is the access point for trains to/from the Corona Train Yard.

 

Yes, almost all of the #7 express trains travel to/from Times Square to Flushing, but not all of the rush hour local trains - about half end at 111th Street.

 

I have an older #7 train schedule from the MTA that showed which trains terminated at 111th Street. The current PDF schedules on the MTA do not have a detailed schedule for the rush hours, to completely show this point.

 

Yes, the simple map guides say Times Square to Flushing, for both the local and express #7 trains, and yes - trains bound for 111th Street may not be marked - but they end there. The trains headed to 111th Street go to/from the train yard, and return to service from there.

 

Yes, the Main Street-Flushing terminal is a three track-two center platform terminal - but it does not handle ALL of the rush hour traffic of the #7 line. Yes, the two-track center platform Times Square station handles all of the #7 traffic on the line, but not the Main Street-Flushing terminal.

 

There was an inference made of comparing the #6 line in the Bronx, to the #7 line in Queens. The situations are actually different, while both lines have really efficient terminals in Manhattan, their out-bound terminals are different.

 

Another example is the #4 line in the Bronx, where several rush hour trains say "Bedford Park" as their terminal, even though the train map gives the impression that all #4 trains go to Woodlawn. Several lines have rush hour short-turns that are not listed on the subway map.

 

Mike

[CenSin]

The quoted passage above is referring to the #7 Flushing line. There are places to "short turn" trains on the Flushing line, one is 111th Street and that is used during the rush hours, and the other is Willets Point-Shea Stadium (now Citifield), often noted on older train schedules.

 

Purely just for reference, on the #7 line, and I am talking about the #7 only - not all of the #7 local trains travel to and from Times Square to Flushing. For decades during the rush hours, about half of the #7 local trains run between Times Square and 111th Street. The 111th Street station is the access point for trains to/from the Corona Train Yard.

 

Yes, almost all of the #7 express trains travel to/from Times Square to Flushing, but not all of the rush hour local trains - about half end at 111th Street.

 

I have an older #7 train schedule from the MTA that showed which trains terminated at 111th Street. The current PDF schedules on the MTA do not have a detailed schedule for the rush hours, to completely show this point.

 

Yes, the simple map guides say Times Square to Flushing, for both the local and express #7 trains, and yes - trains bound for 111th Street may not be marked - but they end there. The trains headed to 111th Street go to/from the train yard, and return to service from there.

 

Yes, the Main Street-Flushing terminal is a three track-two center platform terminal - but it does not handle ALL of the rush hour traffic of the #7 line. Yes, the two-track center platform Times Square station handles all of the #7 traffic on the line, but not the Main Street-Flushing terminal.

 

There was an inference made of comparing the #6 line in the Bronx, to the #7 line in Queens. The situations are actually different, while both lines have really efficient terminals in Manhattan, their out-bound terminals are different.

 

Another example is the #4 line in the Bronx, where several rush hour trains say "Bedford Park" as their terminal, even though the train map gives the impression that all #4 trains go to Woodlawn. Several lines have rush hour short-turns that are not listed on the subway map.

 

Mike

Being a frequent rider of the , I always notice the during PM rush terminating at Willets Point, turning back to the storage tracks at 111 Street from there, and then heading to the yard from the storage tracks. I have yet to observe a terminate at 111 Street (as I do not ride the to Flushing).

[TwoTimer]

Being a frequent rider of the , I always notice the during PM rush terminating at Willets Point, turning back to the storage tracks at 111 Street from there, and then heading to the yard from the storage tracks. I have yet to observe a terminate at 111 Street (as I do not ride the to Flushing).

 

Of course trains can turn at Willets and at 111 on the outside, but there's a difference between just short turning a train to provide service on a scheduled or emergency basis (which can be done at Willets, 111, 74, Queensboro, etc etc) and having the place function as a terminal (ala Parkchester, 57st), which has bonafide crew facilities, ATD/TD or whatever in charge, etc. After that last train in the PM that comes back up as the last express (1912 Pelham = 2019 BB ), trains run outa there every 5 mins until around 8, and its VERY tight. And people on here want both express and locals outa there in the AM rush at the current frequency? Laughable. People have to think about the personnel point of view, too. Can't go only on track schematics which are widely available, which is what most railfans who are actually not working for TA go by.

 

Trains used to originate out of Westchester Sq too, but that was shelved years ago. Of course its feasible to run both local and express services right out of Pelham, it doesnt mean its right, or should be done, or even attempted. Those same people can't even ensure the same amount of service can be maintained, too. Note that put-ins use M track going to both Pelham and Parkchester at the moment, and very often there are two trains leaving that yard simultaneously, both headed in different directions (I was a tw/o at West yard btw). The minute M track is used for regular revenue service, that goes out the window, leaving only C lead (which goes to Middletown on 3 track) for putins. Also work trains returning home typically use M track north of Parkchester as a holding area (either going down A lead or ping ponging down B lead in between putins) until the yard can accept them, as getting the putins out on time remains a priority and there's that flexibility that wont affect service.

 

Ive said enuff.