This guy CANNOT become president...

[engineerboy6561]

:checks thread: :leaves thread:

=

Joking aside: I have no faith in either party. In the end the puppetmasters will get their way in the end. People here that still thinks it's Democrat vs GOP or Liberal vs Conservative are delusional. We will never be free if we are still bound by the same idiotic 2-party system. It's a duopoly, there's no competition against them, thus the status quo of the same shit by the same parties.

 

Here's the thing; it still is about traditionally liberal (Keynesian) ideas and policies vs. traditionally conservative (Friedman-style) ones. The problem is that the Democratic Party has become largely unwilling to hold to or implement Keynesian policies when they've been given the chance, both because of too much corporate money flowing into their campaign coffers and because even when we held 60+ seats in the Senate and a majority in the House half our people were "blue dogs" who may have been sick of Bush and his ilk but were still hung up on Friedman's model and couldn't set it aside enough to do what had to be done.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

@VG8: I hear you as far as buying American is concerned, but what people tend to forget is that buying American costs money that a lot of people don't have. The cry for "cheap, cheap, cheap" is not a miser saying "Let me hoard my money" but rather a struggling man saying "Don't make me spend what I don't have to begin with." It becomes a vicious cycle, in which the average man can't afford to buy American goods, so more plants move offshore leaving more broken communities and paupers in all but name dependent on Chinese trash. We need the return of strong, high-paying blue-collar jobs to sustain our middle class simply because it's the only way American workers will be able to afford the goods they make and only then can we grow a strong enough manufacturing base to be able to export after the fashion of Germany.

 

The problem is that when folks had jobs and money here, they still complained that they wanted things cheaper and then they were indeed greedy, and the corporations said okay, you want cheap, so here it is, and then they started moving production overseas. The problem is the American consumer didn't care about the consequences of these actions and since jobs were around and credit was being given to folks left and right, everything was peachy-dory. Then the jobs started to dry up, leaving towns literally with NOTHING. New York City used to have a decent manufacturing base also that is just about dead with a few places open here and there, but where they're really feeling it at is in the heart of the U.S. in the Midwest and places in the South. These towns relied upon manufacturing and when those companies went overseas, you had towns that just dried up and there is basically nothing there now by way of jobs.

 

The problem now is, how do we turn this around? While I do agree to an extent that American goods cost more, the American consumer has to stop using this as an excuse as to why they don't buy more American goods. The American goods can be just as cheap as the Chinese ones if folks actually took the time to do something called "SHOPPING" and did price comparisons. The corporations know that the average American consumer is too lazy to actually shop so they keep importing the garbage and filling the stores with the cheap junk. What amazes me is despite all of the recalls and toxins that have been found in Chinese products, there still seems to be this love affair with cheap goods at all costs. Sometimes paying a few cents more is worth it in the long run because the product lasts longer and is CHEAPER over time than buying the cheaper product.

 

We've become a society that loves to throw away and buy new. That's another problem, so folks would rather buy five of the same item over a one year period when they could buy one of the same product that perhaps costs a bit more when they buy it, but lasts far longer than the cheaper product, but most folks don't think this way.

 

To those who say this will happen on its own, I wish them good luck trying to find jobs of the sort I described that are not restricted to a very small pool of well-to-do professionals. I am not saying there is anything wrong with these men and women, but it is worth noting that there are simply not enough of them to sustain a domestic manufacturing base. Only 27 percent of the country gracuates college with a bachelor's degree or better, and that includes degrees in fields such as nursing that still pay very little. In reality I'd say no more than 5% of the workforce if that is comprised of people with the credentials and connections to obtain good white-collar jobs.

 

Thus, it becomes necessary for the government to enter the picture as an agent of change. It essentially becomes necessary for the government to force manufacturing back into this company through a combination of subsidies for companies who expand into the US and severe penalties for companies that continue to work offshore, and the expansion of unions and other mechanisms allowing workers to agitate for higher pay and more rights because that's the only way to rebuild a strong middle class in this country.

 

 

Yeah, well this is what happens when everyone thinks that they're too good for manufacturing jobs and want goods cheaper. Everyone was placed here to be a laywer or a doctor or to have some sort of white collar high paying job.

 

Obama hasn't been the best president, but in all fairness the man was handed a landslide in the process of happening when he was sworn in, has been hamstrung by one situation or another from the day he walked in the door, and has still managed to make baby steps toward a better way. As frustrating as this past year or so has been, baby steps in the right direction are far better than leaps and bounds in the wrong one. Romney, on the other hand, is a continuation of the old model of "give the rich and corporations what they want and they'll look out for us," which has not only failed but brought the country to its knees in the process, and any man who votes for him deserves the damage that will be visited on this country if he is elected.

 

Oh just stop it already. How long are we going to keep blaming Bush for this mess? He's almost done with his first term and he's spent more time blaming others than trying to do something to fix this mess. Everyone acknowledged that he came into a mess and it would be difficult, but I don't see how he's changed this routine one bit in order to get things turned around. He still is taking his vacations and golfing and living the life while folks are suffering and he's telling folks that we need to cut back and such and meanwhile he is doing anything but. A complete hypocrite IMO. Now I'll sit back and wait for all of the Obama supporters to attack me for speaking the truth. Even folks in his own party acknowledge that he is doing NOTHING but selling hot air.

 

Obama=NO SHOW, except for when there are fundraisers here in NYC, then he strolls in and ties up traffic (during rush hour nonetheless). :mad:

 

Does anyone else see the corelation between the rise of Walmart/China and the stagnation in wages over the last quarter century or so? I happen to think that they're connected in some way. I don't like Walmart but I can see why so many Americans shop there. If your wages haven't really increased in a generation yet you must feed and clothe your family I can understand your position.

 

 

Oh yeah, I've noticed it. In fact MSNBC did a special on the whole Made in China issue and Walmart and how we've become this nation obsessed with cheap goods and how that has hurt our economy. Before folks were greedy and wanted it cheap because they wanted more money in their pocket and now they want it cheap because all of the jobs went overseas and their salaries have been slashed. That's what cheap gets you. You can't buy cheap and want higher salaries. Doesn't work that way. I don't see this economy going anywhere until we have a solid manufacturing base again.

[engineerboy6561]

The problem is that when folks had jobs and money here, they still complained that they wanted things cheaper and then they were indeed greedy, and the corporations said okay, you want cheap, so here it is, and then they started moving production overseas. The problem is the American consumer didn't care about the consequences of these actions and since jobs were around and credit was being given to folks left and right, everything was peachy-dory. Then the jobs started to dry up, leaving towns literally with NOTHING. New York City used to have a decent manufacturing base also that is just about dead with a few places open here and there, but where they're really feeling it at is in the heart of the U.S. in the Midwest and places in the South. These towns relied upon manufacturing and when those companies went overseas, you had towns that just dried up and there is basically nothing there now by way of jobs.

 

Well, yes, but that's merely a function of human nature. People are stupid/greedy/whatever other pejoratives you care to insert here, but I don't think that means they deserve what's happening to them now and I figure that if the American people got a do-over starting 50 years ago knowing what they know now they would be a whole lot more aware of the consequences of outsourcing and a whole lot less willing to allow this to happen. I agree with you that the American people helped to make this mess, but the way to clean it up is to tarriff imports, penalize companies who work offshore, and provide higher-paying, better jobs.

 

The problem now is, how do we turn this around? While I do agree to an extent that American goods cost more, the American consumer has to stop using this as an excuse as to why they don't buy more American goods. The American goods can be just as cheap as the Chinese ones if folks actually took the time to do something called "SHOPPING" and did price comparisons. The corporations know that the average American consumer is too lazy to actually shop so they keep importing the garbage and filling the stores with the cheap junk. What amazes me is despite all of the recalls and toxins that have been found in Chinese products, there still seems to be this love affair with cheap goods at all costs. Sometimes paying a few cents more is worth it in the long run because the product lasts longer and is CHEAPER over time than buying the cheaper product.

 

We've become a society that loves to throw away and buy new. That's another problem, so folks would rather buy five of the same item over a one year period when they could buy one of the same product that perhaps costs a bit more when they buy it, but lasts far longer than the cheaper product, but most folks don't think this way.

 

Again, true, but the other thing you have to remember is that when you're operating with below a certain budget you literally can't spend the extra few cents here and there because they don't have the money in their bank accounts or on their credit cards at the time of purchase and it's basic enough that they can't do without and save up...

 

 

Yeah, well this is what happens when everyone thinks that they're too good for manufacturing jobs and want goods cheaper. Everyone was placed here to be a laywer or a doctor or to have some sort of white collar high paying job.

 

Agreed, but I'm pretty sure that should start to change once good solid blue collar jobs are made available. Nobody wants to go into a field with low wages, low job security, and poor working conditions, and unless you get rid of "right to work" laws and start allowing workers (through unions and other mechanisms) to agitate for higher pay and more say in their jobs manufacturing will be viewed in that light.

 

Oh just stop it already. How long are we going to keep blaming Bush for this mess? He's almost done with his first term and he's spent more time blaming others than trying to do something to fix this mess. Everyone acknowledged that he came into a mess and it would be difficult, but I don't see how he's changed this routine one bit in order to get things turned around. He still is taking his vacations and golfing and living the life while folks are suffering and he's telling folks that we need to cut back and such and meanwhile he is doing anything but. A complete hypocrite IMO. Now I'll sit back and wait for all of the Obama supporters to attack me for speaking the truth. Even folks in his own party acknowledge that he is doing NOTHING but selling hot air.

 

Obama=NO SHOW, except for when there are fundraisers here in NYC, then he strolls in and ties up traffic (during rush hour nonetheless). :mad:

 

If this were a minor recession, then I would agree with you. However, this collapse was very nearly on the same order as the Great Depression, and the stimulus plan was the only thing that kept us from going off a cliff. Since that time, three quarters of the things he was planning on doing got shot down, blocked, or watered down until there was no point passing them anyway because there wasn't really much of a consensus in Congress until it was too late and we lost the House (and the sixtieth vote in the Senate). As for "living the life," the guy hasn't taken much of any vacation time since he got into office aside from a couple of times, and he's already going gray pretty fast. Compared to other recent presidents (especially No. 43) Obama's hardly living the life you imply that he is.

 

 

Oh yeah, I've noticed it. In fact MSNBC did a special on the whole Made in China issue and Walmart and how we've become this nation obsessed with cheap goods and how that has hurt our economy. Before folks were greedy and wanted it cheap because they wanted more money in their pocket and now they want it cheap because all of the jobs went overseas and their salaries have been slashed. That's what cheap gets you. You can't buy cheap and want higher salaries. Doesn't work that way. I don't see this economy going anywhere until we have a solid manufacturing base again.

 

OK, so we agree that we need a solid American manufacturing base if we want to rebuild the economy and the country after what happened. I do tend to be rather easy to find fault with, but that's mostly because when I post on topics like this I offer proposals to go forward rather than merely attacking the current ideas. All questions of blame aside, what would you propose be done? And how different would it or would it not be from the ideas I laid out in my previous post?

 

Replies in blue.

[553 Bridgeton]

Some of you people have your heads so far your asses that its funny. The fact none of these idiot government people are doing nothing for you people. Whoever the next president is we are still going to have the same damn problems.

[R68 Subway Car]

Here's the thing; it still is about traditionally liberal (Keynesian) ideas and policies vs. traditionally conservative (Friedman-style) ones. The problem is that the Democratic Party has become largely unwilling to hold to or implement Keynesian policies when they've been given the chance, both because of too much corporate money flowing into their campaign coffers and because even when we held 60+ seats in the Senate and a majority in the House half our people were "blue dogs" who may have been sick of Bush and his ilk but were still hung up on Friedman's model and couldn't set it aside enough to do what had to be done.

Your side has given you everything you wanted. The stimulus package was as Keynesian as you could get. You got your healthcare bill. You have been given everything. Three Republicans even joined in to vote for the stimulus package. Your side even had a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate by the end of 2009. Please do not ever tell me that you have not gotten what you wanted. You have gotten everything you wanted and it has been an absolute failure. Unemployment in this country is at 9.1% and it is not getting better.

[engineerboy6561]

Your side has given you everything you wanted. The stimulus package was as Keynesian as you could get. You got your healthcare bill. You have been given everything. Three Republicans even joined in to vote for the stimulus package. Your side even had a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate by the end of 2009. Please do not ever tell me that you have not gotten what you wanted. You have gotten everything you wanted and it has been an absolute failure. Unemployment in this country is at 9.1% and it is not getting better.

 

Excuse me, but how exactly have we been given everything we wanted? We drove the stimulus through with exactly and only three Republican votes (which was about what I would have expected), and while it kept the country from falling off a cliff it was hardly enough to address everything that needed addressing. We would have needed a second stimulus of roughly even size to pull the country up out of the doldrums, and there was no way in hell we could have gotten that through.

 

The healthcare bill contained a few provisions many of us were not happy about, in particular the individual mandate, and a lack of provisions that would force companies to hold premiums and deductibles down, and it was not what it could have been. Most of my frustrations with this country's politics stem from the inability and/or unwillingness of the Democrats to push far enough ahead to make a positive difference in our economic condition.

 

As far as that which we wanted being an absolute failure, I very much beg to differ. What we wanted (or at least what I wanted) was to rebuild the blue-collar middle class and bring corporations back to heel so that we could harness their revenue- and commodity-generating power to revitalize the nation. In short, we wanted the New Deal 2.0, and we wound up fighting tooth and nail to get a few small pieces of it through. If you look at the Great Depression (which is the closest model I can think of for our current situation) it took government spending on a scale that would make your standard Republican (and, sadly, half the Democrats) flip the f--- out if it were proposed again today before much of a positive impact was achieved. I would thus argue that Obama's failures are a product of an inability to go far enough rather than a sign that his model has failed.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Excuse me, but how exactly have we been given everything we wanted? We drove the stimulus through with exactly and only three Republican votes (which was about what I would have expected), and while it kept the country from falling off a cliff it was hardly enough to address everything that needed addressing. We would have needed a second stimulus of roughly even size to pull the country up out of the doldrums, and there was no way in hell we could have gotten that through.

 

The healthcare bill contained a few provisions many of us were not happy about, in particular the individual mandate, and a lack of provisions that would force companies to hold premiums and deductibles down, and it was not what it could have been. Most of my frustrations with this country's politics stem from the inability and/or unwillingness of the Democrats to push far enough ahead to make a positive difference in our economic condition.

 

As far as that which we wanted being an absolute failure, I very much beg to differ. What we wanted (or at least what I wanted) was to rebuild the blue-collar middle class and bring corporations back to heel so that we could harness their revenue- and commodity-generating power to revitalize the nation. In short, we wanted the New Deal 2.0, and we wound up fighting tooth and nail to get a few small pieces of it through. If you look at the Great Depression (which is the closest model I can think of for our current situation) it took government spending on a scale that would make your standard Republican (and, sadly, half the Democrats) flip the f--- out if it were proposed again today before much of a positive impact was achieved. I would thus argue that Obama's failures are a product of an inability to go far enough rather than a sign that his model has failed.

 

 

Well the Democrats certainly rammed the healthcare package through despite many folks having questions and being opposed...

 

As far as what he wanted, he claimed that he was going to get tough on China. In fact I recall him talking about it during his campaign because that was something that got me thinking about whether or not I would vote for him and since he has come into office he has done NOTHING to deal with trade issues but moan. Many folks were even labeling him to be a protectionist and now nothing. He talks a lot about creating American jobs and protecting American jobs regularly, but no sort of anything in terms of getting movement on any sort of bills that would help American companies that are not outsourcing and are dedicated to "Made in USA" and to Americans. I don't see why he can't get anything going on that when he was able to press for the healthcare reform bill.

[engineerboy6561]

Well the Democrats certainly rammed the healthcare package through despite many folks having questions and being opposed...

 

As far as what he wanted, he claimed that he was going to get tough on China. In fact I recall him talking about it during his campaign because that was something that got me thinking about whether or not I would vote for him and since he has come into office he has done NOTHING to deal with trade issues but moan. Many folks were even labeling him to be a protectionist and now nothing. He talks a lot about creating American jobs and protecting American jobs regularly, but no sort of anything in terms of getting movement on any sort of bills that would help American companies that are not outsourcing and are dedicated to "Made in USA" and to Americans. I don't see why he can't get anything going on that when he was able to press for the healthcare reform bill.

 

You and I may want that, but the corporations whose lobbyists hang out on the hill don't in the least. It would most likely require significant political capital to get protectionist legislation through (of the type that would begin to force companies back into the US and vs. just being a cutesy gesture) and he spent most if not all of what he had getting healthcare through. For good or for ill, he made healthcare reform the centerpoint of his first term. Was that a good decision to make? Probably not, in retrospect, but the man still got a tremendous amount done given what he had to deal with and you have to at least respect him for that.

[Trainmaster5]

The simple fact is a President, any President, can only talk (propose). It's up to the House and Senate to make these proposals see the light of day. When you have a divided body politic and one side openly wants to see the President (and the country by extension) fail you have the outcome we have today. It's too bad the average American can't see that either Obama or McCain would have inherited the same screwed up economic conditions that have been building up for a generation because of our economic policies. I make no excuses for Obama and wouldn't make any for John McCain if he were elected in '08 because in my opinion this economic slide was a long time in the making. The problem is if Americans are stupid enough to put a proponent of the same failed policies in office again and expect a different result. I study history, not economics, but I don't have much faith in the intelligence of many Americans any more. Jersey Shore, Twitter, Facebook, Iphone, DWTS, are talked about more than the future of the USA in the media. Sure looks bad for the home team to me. Just my opinion though. Subway Guy, Engineerboy, keep up the good fight. Carry on.

[SoSpectacular]

Those that haven't opened their eyes yet still have a long way to go

[SubwayGuy]

Classic. Via Garibaldi's lack of reading comprehension rears its ugly head yet again.

 

LOL... Blaming the rich seems to be SubwayGuy's main argument, as if the rich suddenly became rich yesterday.

 

They've increased their wealth EXPONENTIALLY compared to the rest of the population for 30 years. Average executive salary has increased EXPONENTIALLY compared to that of the American worker. It's a problem and it's only getting worse.

 

The rich have been rich for years and that isn't going to change regardless of whether or not a Democrat or a Republican is in office.

 

Probably the only true thing you've said in off topic.

 

While I agree with some of his comments, (i.e. redoing/eliminating this sham of a healthcare package), he makes it seem as if the rich is the main reason why the Chinese own so much U.S. debt.

 

You mean redoing it with something modeled on his Massachusetts plan which is a lot like Obama's? Anything he proposes will likely limit freedom and increase costs MORE than the joke of a bill Obama pushed through.

 

The Chinese own US debt because politicians allow that to occur. Q: What social class comprises the politician class? A: The rich.

 

What he fails to admit or point out is the American consumer is OBSESSED with buying cheap goods and that's where some of the big problems lie. Cheap cheap cheap cheap and then on the same hand they complain about jobs being outsourced overseas.

 

On the contrary, the American BUSINESSMAN is obsessed with CUTTING COSTS so that they can keep more money for themselves (which is why worker salaries have been flat for 30 years while executive salaries skyrocket).

 

If worker salaries had increased without executive pay skyrocketing and jobs being outsourced due to corporate greed, Americans would have more dollars in their pockets, more economic activity would transpire, and would benefit the near-fully employed American society. More tax dollars would be coming in, so less borrowing and printing of currency would be needed, and there would be less need for public debt. Without the burden of public debt, the US would be free to sanction China over its currency manipulation officially and either place strict import quotas on that cheap shit or create astronomical tariffs that make the goods more expensive than the American made ones - which the people can now afford due to their BETTER PAYING AMERICAN JOBS.

 

You can't have it both ways. The American consumer on average does not want to pay anything for what they buy and they moan about American goods costing too much and then when all of the American companies ship jobs overseas they say "Oh there are no jobs!!"

 

Most people don't even think that far. It is the responsibility of government to represent the interests of the sheeple and they haven't done so. Mitt Romney is just another in a long line of corporate hedge fund c*cksuckers with a lot of money who think running a government in the public interest is somehow comparable to running a business where the goal is simply to make (or steal) as much money as possible. The only thing they share in common is expecting the public to "bail them out" when they fail like a bunch of azz holes.

 

Wow, that's a shocker... B) Every company needs a healthy manufacturing base if they're going to remain strong and that's what we have lost and why we can't get out of this mess. You can only retrain so many people to do other things.

 

In order to build back a manufacturing base you have to start somewhere. With the wealth that is left in this country. Which is in the hands of the rich. Can't build manufacturing back on the backs of poor people working for slave wages...all that does is set this nation back 100 years.

 

I think Romney needs to be a bit more realistic about getting tough on China and giving more tax breaks to keep American jobs here, BUT also heavily penalizing American companies who outsource jobs.

 

And in other threads I've suggested ways to do this - lower the corporate tax rate significantly, hike high individual income earner tax rates significantly (especially above 1 million), limit capital gains tax rate to qualifying IRA, Roth IRA, and 401k contributions (flat 20% for EVERYONE)...all other investment income is ordinary income. As for penalizing companies who outsource, it's as simple as eliminating the deductibility of wages paid in foreign currency or to foreign nationals.

 

I've also suggested the zero tolerance policy on illegals - anyone can report an illegal, and illegals are immediately deported with no questions asked. They cannot drive cars, they cannot buy property, have bank accounts, put their kids in school, or even get hospital emergency room treatment. They live here at their own risk. Illegals can acquire citizenship one of two ways - five years of satisfactory military service - or application for a visa through the proper channels citing a desire to "make good" on past illegal time as well as go through the proper path to citizenship - which would include an English FLUENCY (note I didn't say proficiency) exam, US history exam, as well as payment of all back taxes, all required fees, plus a penalty fee of $5,000. Anything less = deported. Legal immigrants remain entitled to all necessary emergency care.

 

People complain that wages aren't growing, but when you look and see what American companies have to pay in taxes and healthcare coverage, etc., etc. it is easy to see why wages aren't going up. I'm not saying that there is just one reason and I am certainly not going to put all of the blame on the rich.

 

Corporations pay very little in taxes, and that's part of the problem currently - they exploit loopholes. You have a bunch of useless bean counters teaching them how to evade taxes which usually starts with outsourcing. That problem takes care of itself by lowering rates. It's not worthwhile to hire a bean counter department at $500,000 a year to save $200,000 on taxes.

 

Healthcare is a huge problem which is why I've suggested in the past that healthcare be FULLY privatized and separated from employment altogether (like car insurance). Allow people to shop around and pick the best deal. Currently you have to pick an employer sponsored plan which greatly restricts choice. Choosing a non-employer sponsored plan, even if the TOTAL cost is less than that of an employer sponsored plan, WILL COST the employee more because the employee has to pay the whole premium under the current system. What I've suggested is creating a system of total free choice where no one "has" to buy insurance, it's illegal for companies to mandate it, and companies don't have to provide it. But if someone gets hurt that's their problem. And those that choose to buy "recommended" insurance can shop around and pick the plan with the best rates. With healthcare no longer being tied to employment, that eliminates ALL the administrative costs of healthcare for employers as well as administrative COBRA costs for BOTH employers AND the government. To make this fair to employees, mandate employee pay raises that coincide with the employer's portion of healthcare costs.

 

With that said, we had a certain someone (aka Obama) that promised that he would get tough on China too and he has done NOTHING but brown nose at best and it's disgusting.

 

I've said this also. Obama has not stood his ground on ONE THING.

 

Americans need to start taking more pride and buying more American made products and also becoming more educated about what they're buying. This is important because the economy is heavily based on the American consumer and their consumption and while I realize that buying American isn't the answer to putting this country back on track, it is certainly one thing that would help.

 

I've said this too. Everyone needs to avoid made in china and made in pakistan...and try to buy American as much as possible.

 

Look at Germany. Their economy has done alright in this recession because they EXPORT. They make things in Germany (i.e. cars, invest a sh*t load in science and technology and so on and so forth) and all we keep doing is dragging our feet talking about how we need to invest in infrastructure and so on and making a war between the rich and the poor, etc. Some of the American companies are coming back now that the good old days of raking in the profits by outsourcing to China are starting to end, but the American consumer is the one that has the power to really change things. I know I certainly buy my fair share of "Made in USA" and am proud to say so. :cool: :tup:

 

Generally agreed, but our nation's infrastructure is falling apart and it needs to be repaired. Without infrastructure, a manufacturing economy can never be built back up.

[SubwayGuy]

Your side has given you everything you wanted. The stimulus package was as Keynesian as you could get. You got your healthcare bill. You have been given everything. Three Republicans even joined in to vote for the stimulus package. Your side even had a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate by the end of 2009. Please do not ever tell me that you have not gotten what you wanted. You have gotten everything you wanted and it has been an absolute failure. Unemployment in this country is at 9.1% and it is not getting better.

 

The INDEPENDENTS did not get what we wanted.

 

We wanted all of the fat cats uprooted, spit on, and everything taken from them and given back to the people from whom it was stolen.

 

We wanted those who perpetrated the financial crisis of 2008 publicly slandered, libeled, and sentenced to punishments as severe as possible...paid for not by the taxpayers but with the criminals' own money.

 

We wanted rules restored that would prevent such a collapse from ever happening again - rules that were relaxed because "we could trust businessmen and bankers" and "it was gonna be different this time" (hmm where else stupid have i heard that shit before?)

 

We wanted healthcare completely overhauled, eliminating the profit centers and the inefficiency of care, and the unnecessary paper trails every time anything happened medically speaking. We wanted the loopholes closed that allowed insurers to deny coverage.

 

We wanted real tort reform - where you can't "sue for anything" and a judge could deem a lawsuit frivolous and make you pay a penalty to the defendant. We wanted the ambulance chasers neutered and shut down, reducing the cost of living for EVERYONE.

 

We wanted an end to US conflicts overseas. We are tired of watching our young men and women die every year just so that Mujjah Ali Mahmoudi and Khaled Sharif Al-Zwaheeni and friends can become free from some leader who it is THEIR duty to overthrow. It is one thing to supply arms and aid...quite another to make their revolution our "war" as happened in Afghanistan and Iraq, and 10 years later American lives are still being lost, and American dollars are still being spent to build up a nation that will never be much more than what it is.

 

We got not a damn bit of that.

[SubwayGuy]

You and I may want that, but the corporations whose lobbyists hang out on the hill don't in the least. It would most likely require significant political capital to get protectionist legislation through (of the type that would begin to force companies back into the US and vs. just being a cutesy gesture) and he spent most if not all of what he had getting healthcare through. For good or for ill, he made healthcare reform the centerpoint of his first term. Was that a good decision to make? Probably not, in retrospect, but the man still got a tremendous amount done given what he had to deal with and you have to at least respect him for that.

 

As far as I'm concerned lobbying is legalized bribery and it needs to end. Perhaps that means officials with ties to the industries they regulate, as well as senators who propose legislation regarding an industry, ought to be required to abstain from such votes as well as their debate...a good reason not to elect lawyers and businessmen who cause 95% of the world's problems.

 

Or perhaps that could include a law preventing politicians from taking jobs at companies in industries they were involved in regulating for 20 years after they leave office. No more you scratch my back i'll scratch yours.

 

But definitely take away nonprofit status for all the lobbying organizations.

 

The penalty for bribery ought to be a charge for high treason and sentence to death and confiscation of all assets.

 

I respect politicians for accomplishments, not talk. Hell even Yoda said "do or do not...there is no 'try.'"

[Tokkemon]

The INDEPENDENTS did not get what we wanted.

 

 

Just because that's what YOU wanted doesn't mean that's what everyone else wanted.

 

If you know what this country needs so much, then why don't you run yourself? This is a democracy after all.

[Tokkemon]

The penalty for bribery ought to be a charge for high treason and sentence to death and confiscation of all assets.

 

 

Wow... :eek:

 

Credibility points minus 5 million.

[SoSpectacular]

Wow... :eek:

 

Credibility points minus 5 million.

 

Why take bribes? That's corruption!

[Tokkemon]

Why take bribes? That's corruption!

 

Punishable by DEATH?! You can't see the absurdity of that?

[SoSpectacular]

Well, I wouldn't trust a man who fell victim to corruption

[SubwayGuy]

Just because that's what YOU wanted doesn't mean that's what everyone else wanted.

 

If you know what this country needs so much, then why don't you run yourself? This is a democracy after all.

 

I'm not 38 years old yet.

 

But stick to your snarky remarks. Your inability to debate the issues intelligently speaks for itself.

[SubwayGuy]

Why take bribes? That's corruption!

 

Don't worry about it. Apparently many in this nation feel that crime, violent or otherwise, is "OK" and that it's always the victim's fault...even if that victim is the American people as a whole.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Classic. Via Garibaldi's lack of reading comprehension rears its ugly head yet again.

 

We actually agree on quite a few things, but I'm not going to let you slither out of your usual attacks on the rich as to why this country is doing so terribly. As you've pointed out, there are a number of reasons why this country is doing poorly and I'm not going to sit here and put all of the blame on the rich. I think you just like using the rich as a scapegoat. I suppose you want to blame the rich for Obama's lackadaisical performance as well. The rich are only taking advantage of what they're being given, so you need to put the blame where it should really lie, on the politicians and the policies that allow the rich to continue to accumulate their massive fortunes.

 

 

 

You mean redoing it with something modeled on his Massachusetts plan which is a lot like Obama's? Anything he proposes will likely limit freedom and increase costs MORE than the joke of a bill Obama pushed through.

 

No, not at all. I would say that our healthcare system needs to be more regulated for starters and above all, we need to start punishing Americans who don't give a sh*t about their diet and how they live. The costs are skyrocketing mainly because of the poor eating habits and smoking and so on and these are the folks that generally don't have health coverage and run to the emergency room for care, forcing increased costs on those with health coverage. We also need to crack down on illegal immigrants seeking health care and get tough on cracking down on healthcare fraud which also helps to increase costs. We've got to analyze why healthcare is so expensive now and cut out the BS and get down to the nitty gritty. I also don't think it is necessary to force Americans to get healthcare coverage because if the costs are lowered, then more people will automatically get coverage.

 

The Chinese own US debt because politicians allow that to occur. Q: What social class comprises the politician class? A: The rich.

 

I won't disagree there, but you cannot point to all rich folks as being "the problem" in this country.

 

 

On the contrary, the American BUSINESSMAN is obsessed with CUTTING COSTS so that they can keep more money for themselves (which is why worker salaries have been flat for 30 years while executive salaries skyrocket).

 

It's a combination of the two. Greedy consumer and greedy businessman. It's nice to see some morality with some companies moving back to the U.S. and realizing their wrongs and making "MADE IN USA" the norm again instead of the exception.

 

If worker salaries had increased without executive pay skyrocketing and jobs being outsourced due to corporate greed, Americans would have more dollars in their pockets, more economic activity would transpire, and would benefit the near-fully employed American society. More tax dollars would be coming in, so less borrowing and printing of currency would be needed, and there would be less need for public debt. Without the burden of public debt, the US would be free to sanction China over its currency manipulation officially and either place strict import quotas on that cheap shit or create astronomical tariffs that make the goods more expensive than the American made ones - which the people can now afford due to their BETTER PAYING AMERICAN JOBS.

 

The question is what president has the balls to take on China and their constant manipulation of their currency? So far none... B)

 

 

Most people don't even think that far. It is the responsibility of government to represent the interests of the sheeple and they haven't done so. Mitt Romney is just another in a long line of corporate hedge fund c*cksuckers with a lot of money who think running a government in the public interest is somehow comparable to running a business where the goal is simply to make (or steal) as much money as possible. The only thing they share in common is expecting the public to "bail them out" when they fail like a bunch of azz holes.

 

Despite what you may think of Romney, the fact of the matter is he was quite successful as Governor of Massachussets. He got taxes lowered AND got the state on the right path fiscally, leaving it out of debt and fiscally sound, all the while seeing that the state had a healthy jobs market. The only thing I didn't care for was his healthcare package. :mad: :tdown:

 

 

In order to build back a manufacturing base you have to start somewhere. With the wealth that is left in this country. Which is in the hands of the rich. Can't build manufacturing back on the backs of poor people working for slave wages...all that does is set this nation back 100 years.

 

Yeah well even so, Obama has been doing nothing but yacking about manufacturing and infrastructure. This was supposed to be his main issue heading into office...

 

 

 

And in other threads I've suggested ways to do this - lower the corporate tax rate significantly, hike high individual income earner tax rates significantly (especially above 1 million), limit capital gains tax rate to qualifying IRA, Roth IRA, and 401k contributions (flat 20% for EVERYONE)...all other investment income is ordinary income. As for penalizing companies who outsource, it's as simple as eliminating the deductibility of wages paid in foreign currency or to foreign nationals.

 

I disagree about limiting capital gains. You and I know that the state of social security in this country is a joke and folks need to be saving everything they can for retirement and taking advantage of every tax break and monetary break offered for retirement plans.

 

I've also suggested the zero tolerance policy on illegals - anyone can report an illegal, and illegals are immediately deported with no questions asked. They cannot drive cars, they cannot buy property, have bank accounts, put their kids in school, or even get hospital emergency room treatment. They live here at their own risk. Illegals can acquire citizenship one of two ways - five years of satisfactory military service - or application for a visa through the proper channels citing a desire to "make good" on past illegal time as well as go through the proper path to citizenship - which would include an English FLUENCY (note I didn't say proficiency) exam, US history exam, as well as payment of all back taxes, all required fees, plus a penalty fee of $5,000. Anything less = deported. Legal immigrants remain entitled to all necessary emergency care.

 

Agreed. Much of Western and Northern Europe is taking a stance against illegal immigration and it is time that we do so as well.

 

Corporations pay very little in taxes, and that's part of the problem currently - they exploit loopholes. You have a bunch of useless bean counters teaching them how to evade taxes which usually starts with outsourcing. That problem takes care of itself by lowering rates. It's not worthwhile to hire a bean counter department at $500,000 a year to save $200,000 on taxes.

 

Agreed and I would be even harsher with those who continue to outsource.

 

Healthcare is a huge problem which is why I've suggested in the past that healthcare be FULLY privatized and separated from employment altogether (like car insurance). Allow people to shop around and pick the best deal. Currently you have to pick an employer sponsored plan which greatly restricts choice. Choosing a non-employer sponsored plan, even if the TOTAL cost is less than that of an employer sponsored plan, WILL COST the employee more because the employee has to pay the whole premium under the current system. What I've suggested is creating a system of total free choice where no one "has" to buy insurance, it's illegal for companies to mandate it, and companies don't have to provide it. But if someone gets hurt that's their problem. And those that choose to buy "recommended" insurance can shop around and pick the plan with the best rates. With healthcare no longer being tied to employment, that eliminates ALL the administrative costs of healthcare for employers as well as administrative COBRA costs for BOTH employers AND the government. To make this fair to employees, mandate employee pay raises that coincide with the employer's portion of healthcare costs.

 

I certainly agree that consumers should be able to pick and choose.

 

 

I've said this also. Obama has not stood his ground on ONE THING.

 

Don't tell the Democrats that...

 

I've said this too. Everyone needs to avoid made in china and made in pakistan...and try to buy American as much as possible.

 

Yeah, but I needs my iPhone man... *sarcasm* LOL Still amazes me how folks flock to Apple products. The quality is absolute garbage, not to mention ridiculous overpriced. I mean that is the perfect example of a company overcharging for goods that cost them next to nothing to make in China.

 

 

Generally agreed, but our nation's infrastructure is falling apart and it needs to be repaired. Without infrastructure, a manufacturing economy can never be built back up.

True.

[engineerboy6561]

As far as I'm concerned lobbying is legalized bribery and it needs to end. Perhaps that means officials with ties to the industries they regulate, as well as senators who propose legislation regarding an industry, ought to be required to abstain from such votes as well as their debate...a good reason not to elect lawyers and businessmen who cause 95% of the world's problems.

 

Or perhaps that could include a law preventing politicians from taking jobs at companies in industries they were involved in regulating for 20 years after they leave office. No more you scratch my back i'll scratch yours.

 

But definitely take away nonprofit status for all the lobbying organizations.

 

The penalty for bribery ought to be a charge for high treason and sentence to death and confiscation of all assets.

 

I respect politicians for accomplishments, not talk. Hell even Yoda said "do or do not...there is no 'try.'"

 

While I wouldn't go as far as the death penalty, I would demand actual hard time for white-collar offenders on par with that for blue collar offenders, definitely get rid of the current law granting corporate lobbying groups non-profit status (How the hell did they even get that status to begin with?), ban any company, group, organization, etc. with more than $50M in annual revenue from donating to political campaigns, and implement your 20-year waiting period and vote abstention ideas (which by the way are spot on). Once that gets through, we'll have a much easier time doing the other things that need to be done (forcing companies back into the US, getting rid of "right-to-work" laws, bringing Wall Street to heel) because we'll have a government willing to do that. As far as the tax code goes, see

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=461268#post461268

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=461560#post461560

for what I think about fixing our current fiscal problem and bringing companies back to the US.

[SubwayGuy]

We actually agree on quite a few things, but I'm not going to let you slither out of your usual attacks on the rich as to why this country is doing so terribly. As you've pointed out, there are a number of reasons why this country is doing poorly and I'm not going to sit here and put all of the blame on the rich. I think you just like using the rich as a scapegoat. I suppose you want to blame the rich for Obama's lackadaisical performance as well. The rich are only taking advantage of what they're being given, so you need to put the blame where it should really lie, on the politicians and the policies that allow the rich to continue to accumulate their massive fortunes.

 

I attack the rich because they manipulate their position as moneyed interests to get politicians to do their bidding. They scream and whine and moan when the possibility that their taxes could get raised gets brought up but they don't seem to mind one bit when anyone else has to pay more.

 

I don't blame anyone for Obama's inability to stand up for anything, other than Obama.

 

No, not at all. I would say that our healthcare system needs to be more regulated for starters and above all, we need to start punishing Americans who don't give a sh*t about their diet and how they live. The costs are skyrocketing mainly because of the poor eating habits and smoking and so on and these are the folks that generally don't have health coverage and run to the emergency room for care, forcing increased costs on those with health coverage. We also need to crack down on illegal immigrants seeking health care and get tough on cracking down on healthcare fraud which also helps to increase costs. We've got to analyze why healthcare is so expensive now and cut out the BS and get down to the nitty gritty. I also don't think it is necessary to force Americans to get healthcare coverage because if the costs are lowered, then more people will automatically get coverage.

 

I've said this also. The symptoms of smoking can be easily detected, and higher premiums for those who are smokers or are clinically obese are justified. If it was legal to charge me higher car insurance rates just because I was 18-25 (despite never having had an accident or a moving violation in my life), then it should be legal to charge those who exhibit signs of smoking or are clinically obese more for premiums. Taxing "sugary drinks" solves nothing because plenty of people drink these things and maintain a healthy lifestyle and are no major health risk. Obesity however is linked to all kinds of various expensive medical conditions.

 

The only mandatory health insurance that should be required is that parents of children under 18 must insure those children.

 

I would also end the Medicare program entirely for non-retirees. Those who are unable to afford any of the private plans would have to submit an application demonstrating financial hardship. In that case, they would receive money each year towards healthcare costs (and healthcare only). Similar to Medicaid, but without the bureaucratic headache (and more like federal student loan money...but it doesn't need to be paid back).

 

Once someone is retired, they can choose between Medicare and continuing private coverage.

 

End HMO's. Referrals are a waste of time and money. Chronic doctor visitors and old people who visit just "because they're lonely" (doctor could document repeat unnecessary visits with the insurance company and there would be NO incentive for the doctor to do so) would be subject to higher premiums. Cosmetic treatments and unnecessary procedures would be covered under no plan, but allowed to be purchased by anyone. Abortions would be covered under no plan, but allowed to be purchased by anyone.

 

I won't disagree there, but you cannot point to all rich folks as being "the problem" in this country.

 

They are one of the biggest. They are obstacles to real reform because they like things the way they are (making money while no one else is).

 

It's a combination of the two. Greedy consumer and greedy businessman. It's nice to see some morality with some companies moving back to the U.S. and realizing their wrongs and making "MADE IN USA" the norm again instead of the exception.

 

It would be nice to see more.

 

The question is what president has the balls to take on China and their constant manipulation of their currency? So far none...

 

Hard to take on China and tell them off when they own so much debt. Could create an international incident. That's why paying down specifically Chinese debt is tantamount to getting them off our back.

 

Despite what you may think of Romney, the fact of the matter is he was quite successful as Governor of Massachussets. He got taxes lowered AND got the state on the right path fiscally, leaving it out of debt and fiscally sound, all the while seeing that the state had a healthy jobs market. The only thing I didn't care for was his healthcare package. :mad: :tdown:

 

As a businessman, Romney "cut labor costs" to increase profits for his firm. AKA he's "one of those" - he's not going to make stopping the outsourcing a priority.

 

As governor, Romney balanced the budget in large part by raising fees. Fees disproportionally affect the poor, working, and middle classes. The rich are usually exempt from them, or small increases are immaterial to them. In addition, some of the measures that decreased the budget gap had been put in place prior to him entering office (like a capital gains tax increase).

 

His healthcare package is very similar to Obama's proposed one...does little to reign in costs but requires people to buy a plan. Also problematic because employer based coverage does not offer a choice of plans other than maybe 2. Some employers don't even offer that much choice. Non-employer sponsored plans cost more to the insured, regardless of what they cost overall, which destroys true competition and eliminates any incentive for insurers to keep costs down or target fraud and waste when they can simply raise premiums every year.

 

Yeah well even so, Obama has been doing nothing but yacking about manufacturing and infrastructure. This was supposed to be his main issue heading into office...

 

Remember I'm not defending Obama here...

 

I disagree about limiting capital gains. You and I know that the state of social security in this country is a joke and folks need to be saving everything they can for retirement and taking advantage of every tax break and monetary break offered for retirement plans.

 

Social security is not a joke. Social security was a program set up to sustain those who outlived their retirement savings. It was not meant to be a public retirement fund. Likewise, it was not meant to be a big pile of money that politicians could dig into whenever they faced a budget shortfall. Social security was originally a fully funded program that was ENTIRELY separate from the federal budget - the pols could not TOUCH that money, because it belonged to the people who contributed to it. And it was collected not at the retirement age, but some time after, to assist those who had outlived their actual retirement savings.

 

It's a good program and it needs to stay but all of those "repealed" laws and provisions that prevented politicians from touching the money need to be brought back with a vengeance so that SS cannot be raided in the future every time.

 

The second part of the above is why I said raise the capital gains tax rate, BUT LEAVE IT ALONE FOR QUALIFYING IRA, ROTH IRA, 457, AND 401K accounts...which are the investment vehicles that the vast majority of the American public uses to save for retirement. Capital gains in prime brokerage accounts are primarily a luxury of the rich, and those account types would see their capital gains taxes raised.

 

Agreed. Much of Western and Northern Europe is taking a stance against illegal immigration and it is time that we do so as well.

 

Check.

 

Agreed and I would be even harsher with those who continue to outsource.

 

I would look into ways to be "harsher" but this would be a start. Penalties levied would have to exceed the costs of enforcement plus the tax revenues generated from the domestic business generated.

 

I certainly agree that consumers should be able to pick and choose.

 

Always.

 

Don't tell the Democrats that...

 

Hey whatever makes the other party look bad right? That's a problem...

 

Yeah, but I needs my iPhone man... *sarcasm* LOL Still amazes me how folks flock to Apple products. The quality is absolute garbage, not to mention ridiculous overpriced. I mean that is the perfect example of a company overcharging for goods that cost them next to nothing to make in China.

 

Also part of why I don't buy apple products. The one Ipod I actually bought broke within 2 years.

 

 

True.

 

Like everything else I've said B)

[Trainmaster5]

While I wouldn't go as far as the death penalty, I would demand actual hard time for white-collar offenders on par with that for blue collar offenders, definitely get rid of the current law granting corporate lobbying groups non-profit status (How the hell did they even get that status to begin with?), ban any company, group, organization, etc. with more than $50M in annual revenue from donating to political campaigns, and implement your 20-year waiting period and vote abstention ideas (which by the way are spot on). Once that gets through, we'll have a much easier time doing the other things that need to be done (forcing companies back into the US, getting rid of "right-to-work" laws, bringing Wall Street to heel) because we'll have a government willing to do that. As far as the tax code goes, see

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=461268#post461268

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=461560#post461560

for what I think about fixing our current fiscal problem and bringing companies back to the US.

 

Speaking of white/blue collar offenders

I've seen many people blame the blue collar folks for the housing price collapse in the country. People who purchased homes with no money down and little or no income. I personally think that the broad idea of home ownership WAS a worthy goal in theory. I also think that it was the white collar crooks who realized the bigger gain in the whole boondoggle. The people who okayed these loans, inflated the buyers income, credit worthiness, and home values, as well as those who bundled these worthless mortgages into grade AAA+ securities are more to blame. AFAIK there was NO REQUIREMENT to OK every loan a buyer sought but it seems that the mortgage lenders took it upon themselves to OK these financial transactions to churn out financial gain for themselves. What they did amounted to a perversion of the home buying process yet I'm still waiting to see CRIMINAL prosecutions of the white collar perpetrators while the blue collar people are demonized. The credit agencies, Wall St, big banks, and the independant mortgage lenders have ,so far, skated scot-free while the average American pays the price. I'd love to see the progressives, "original" Tea Partiers, Libertarians, come together for once and demand that THIS administration start going after those that gained the most through fraudulent means. I don't have any faith that the members of the GOP would do this if they win the next election cycle.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Speaking of white/blue collar offenders

I've seen many people blame the blue collar folks for the housing price collapse in the country. People who purchased homes with no money down and little or no income. I personally think that the broad idea of home ownership WAS a worthy goal in theory. I also think that it was the white collar crooks who realized the bigger gain in the whole boondoggle. The people who okayed these loans, inflated the buyers income, credit worthiness, and home values, as well as those who bundled these worthless mortgages into grade AAA+ securities are more to blame. AFAIK there was NO REQUIREMENT to OK every loan a buyer sought but it seems that the mortgage lenders took it upon themselves to OK these financial transactions to churn out financial gain for themselves. What they did amounted to a perversion of the home buying process yet I'm still waiting to see CRIMINAL prosecutions of the white collar perpetrators while the blue collar people are demonized. The credit agencies, Wall St, big banks, and the independant mortgage lenders have ,so far, skated scot-free while the average American pays the price. I'd love to see the progressives, "original" Tea Partiers, Libertarians, come together for once and demand that THIS administration start going after those that gained the most through fraudulent means. I don't have any faith that the members of the GOP would do this if they win the next election cycle.

 

Yeah, well if it's any consolation to you, I have very good credit (700s) & I still need a down payment, though I qualify for a very low interest rate.