More Problems with the B1

[BrooklynBus]

Let me say a few words here. With all due respect, B35, I know you know a hell of a lot and I respect your opinions, but in this case, your solutions won't work. I probably know more what's going on here than anyone else.

 

The problem with buses skipping the first stop which I believe the MTA already does or at least tried, because I have spoken to the dispatchers, is not a good solution and here is why. The problem is an oder of magnitude. Between 2:30 and 4:30 PM, there are 1500 students getting on the B1 and B49. This does not include the yellow buses which pick up on KCC property which could pick up as many as another 500, but I didn't count them. During this time the number of people boarding along Oriental and Brighton Beach Avenue before the subway numbers only around 100. KCC is obviously much more important, but that doesn't mean the others don't matter. You can't keep them waiting an hour for a bus.

 

Last week I had to take the B1 at Dover Street at 3 PM. I didn't even bother to wait for a bus. I had to walk to the subway (3/4 mile) to get the bus. Three wouldn't stop at West End Avenue. Another skipped Brighton 14th. And another skipped Brighton 12th. A lady was running after the bus from 14th to 12th Street after the bus didn't stop. I told her to walk to the subway. With all the traffic she actually got there the same time as the bus that wouldn't let her on before.

 

Three buses already load at the same time at the College around 3 PM. Two B1s and a B49, and they are all packed. What the students do is take the yellow bus inside if one is waiting. If they see none, they walk to the MTA buses. Since at least half are going to the subway, most take the closest bus which is the B1. If none is in the stand, they walk to the B49. That's why the B1 is always more crowded. In fact, sometimes the B49 to Sheepshead Bay Station leaves without any standees, while the B1 is packed.

 

One superintendent thought that switching the B1 and 49 terminals might help and actually got OP to approve it. I thought about it and told her to cancel that change and she listened to me because that would just switch the problem from the B1 to the B49 instead overloading that route instead.

 

We even talked about artics but they don't have any to spare. They could be used on the B1 shuttles if they only made two stops, but you would need a dispatcher to load people through the rear. You would need an-off-board fare collection system which they used to do on the B46 at Eastern Parkway in the 1960s. They placed a fare box on the street and people would pay there. Otherwise it would just take too long to load the bus and you wouldn't save much.

 

There needs to be enough running time on the route so drivers don't flag stops unnecessarily and there needs to be better enforcement. Other than build a new terminal inside the college, I don't know what else you can do.

 

B35, do you know if any other school gets so many bus riders (750 per hour at dismissal time)?

 

I think this situation may be unique and that's why I think the school should chip in. With increasing enrollment every semester, problems will only get worse.

 

The B49 is not nearly as crowded in the afternoons as the B1. I don't know what happens in the mornings, but I think the B49 carries more passengers then, but the B1 still brings in more students because of more frequent service (8 min as compared to 12, not counting the shuttles.

 

About a third of the yellow buses continue to Coney Island with a seated load. Several years ago DOT proposed to extend the B74 to KCC. Guess they thought the community could apply pressure on the MTA, but the Board went crazy when they heard of more buses coming to the college. The plan went nowhere. Actually it would have been a good idea during school hours, but DOT knowing nothing, proposed the bus go along Neptune Avenue to West End Avenue bypassing the Brighton Station which would have made no sense at all.

[checkmatechamp13]

What would be your standards for a route to be LTD then?

 

There are actual set standards. My personal ones would be lower.

 

The set standards are that if the route runs every 5 minutes or less (6 on the weekends) it can qualify for a limited (plus, it has to be over 4.4 miles in length)

 

My personal standards would be raised to 8 minutes, maybe even 10 in special instances (so the B1 might be able to qualify)

 

The idea is that they would simply convert some local buses to limiteds, so a local every 5 minutes would mean a local and limited every 8-10 minutes each.

 

If it were 10 minute headways, if necessary, I'd have the local:limited ratio be higher than 1:1 (possibly 3:2 or 4:3), so that local passengers get decent service, but people can get where they're going faster.

 

For instance, I think the S53 should get a limited. Right now on the weekends, it runs every 10 minutes. I'd have locals running every 15 minutes and limiteds running every 20 minutes, so local passengers still get decent service and capacity is increased overall (from 6 buses per hour to 7, for roughly the same cost because the limited travels faster)

 

Well, what about running artics on the line? Most of the B1 has enough room for them. I only question if there are some streets that would be difficult and if Ulmer Park has the room for artics... :eek:

 

Offhand, I don't think there are any streets that are too narrow, especially now that it has the new route (vs. the old route on Bay Ridge Avenue). The only issue might be at the terminals.

 

gettin my directions all mixed up....

 

my fault, it is the SW corner; the B1 KCC bound stop is still on the same side of the subway steps/entrance..... instead of being close® to the steps, it was moved right at the corner (not cross the street).... IIRC, it's either a citibank or a chase bank at that corner... I know it's a bank, though.

 

Gotcha.

[Q43LTD]

There are actual set standards. My personal ones would be lower.

 

The set standards are that if the route runs every 5 minutes or less (6 on the weekends) it can qualify for a limited (plus, it has to be over 4.4 miles in length)

 

My personal standards would be raised to 8 minutes, maybe even 10 in special instances (so the B1 might be able to qualify)

 

The idea is that they would simply convert some local buses to limiteds, so a local every 5 minutes would mean a local and limited every 8-10 minutes each.

 

If it were 10 minute headways, if necessary, I'd have the local:limited ratio be higher than 1:1 (possibly 3:2 or 4:3), so that local passengers get decent service, but people can get where they're going faster.

 

For instance, I think the S53 should get a limited. Right now on the weekends, it runs every 10 minutes. I'd have locals running every 15 minutes and limiteds running every 20 minutes, so local passengers still get decent service and capacity is increased overall (from 6 buses per hour to 7, for roughly the same cost because the limited travels faster)

 

I can name one route that doesn't qualify for those standards

[BrooklynBus]

Wait a second... This problem of skipping every stop in b/w the 2 points is going on in BOTH directions?

It's worse than I thought then.....

 

Where are KCC bound B1's losing all this time, to the point where you constantly got a] 80+ kids or w/e waiting for a bus back in the other direction, b] having to bypass pax @ that bus stop by Brighton Bch subway, and c] heading straight from the subway to KCC w/o making intermediate stops...

as far as the B49 goes, I really don't understand why some of these kids don't wait for 49's (like they do B1's) if they're simply tryna catch the subway.... Brighton Beach B's & Q's aren't no more crushloaded at brighton bch than they are & sheepshead.... the B & Q stops at sheepshead... is it a stigma thing? does the B1 get to the subway that much faster than the 49?

How many KCC students are coming from the D/N/F, as opposed to the B/Q

(north of sheepshead, that is)? I just don't get it.....

Something is not adding up, if this is a major problem just on the B1 (and not the 49)....

 

Just saw this post now. Don't know if buses are skipping stops in the morning after the subway station. They might if they are crush loaded, but would still have to stop to let people off. There is no problem with anyone not wanting to take the 49. Anyone who wants the Brighton Line only takes whatever coes first. If both the B1 and B49 are waiting, they will choose the B1 just because it is a little closer. That's why the B49 leaves the college not as full.

 

There are 1 or 2 B49 shuttles to Sheepshead Bay but they are not used nearly as much as the B 1 shuttles. The B49 shuttles leave the college with 50 to 60 passengers, but the B1s could have 80.

 

The problem is when a train pulls in to Brighton, you can get 80 people within 2 minutes. Same thing at the college when classes let out. A dispatcher told me that even if the driver tries to close the door after 65 passengers to have room for other passengers, the students often won't let him and insist on piling on until it has 85 passengers. My thought is they do this only when they don't see another bus behind and don't know when the next one will be coming.

[checkmatechamp13]

I can name one route that doesn't qualify for those standards

 

I can name some too: All of the SI routes, but of course that has to do with the scheduling of the ferry and the long commutes for SI bus riders.

 

Which route were you thinking of?

[BrooklynBus]

The ones coming from the D and N and some from the F are taking the yellow buses at Coney Island, not the MTA buses. I would say at the peak maybe 100 an hour. About half the B49 and B 1 passengers are getting off at the Brighton subway.

[B35 via Church]

I'll do it like this...

 

 

There needs to be enough running time on the route so drivers don't flag stops unnecessarily and there needs to be better enforcement. Other than build a new terminal inside the college, I don't know what else you can do.

I'll even go one further than that and say, this sounds like you need a policeman (not a KCC security guard, not a dispatcher, but an actual NYPD cop) to aid in getting these students on buses....

 

Also, I'm not sure what, or how displacing the students inside the campus (to wait for & eventually board buses) would help matters.... especially w/ mackenzie being at the very end of the roadway; holding up traffic while people board aint an issue at all.... I dunno, are you trying to say that there's no room for buses? b/c that sidewalk is long enough to have all those kids waiting..... If it's the mob mentality (the way kids are boarding the buses; bumrushing) that's part of the problem, moving the terminal aint goin change that at all.....

 

So we're back to square one as far as this discussion goes.... If that's the only solution you can think of, w/ your years of experience, then KCC & every B1 rider that doesn't board @ KCC around that specified time (2-4 pm) is in trouble... To me, this is sounding like it's affecting the entire route (including the B1 west of the subway).... Residents throughout your entire neighborhood getting flagged... yeh, at this rate, this is gonna get worse before it gets better....

 

 

KCC is obviously much more important, but that doesn't mean the others don't matter. You can't keep them waiting an hour for a bus.

...is why I don't approve of B1's 'officially' running right to the station.... screws the residents wholesale.... (more) residents in your entire neighborhood would be forced to walk, which is just asinine...

 

----

There are 1 or 2 B49 shuttles to Sheepshead Bay but they are not used nearly as much as the B 1 shuttles. The B49 shuttles leave the college with 50 to 60 passengers, but the B1s could have 80.

In fact, sometimes the B49 to Sheepshead Bay Station leaves without any standees, while the B1 is packed.

When we're talkin about ~750 riders an hour, that has got to change.... That is what I don't understand; getting buses leaving w/o standees.... the B1 cannot be that sought after.... iono, maybe buses should pull in signed as "SUBWAY SHUTTLE".... Any student wanting the subway would obviously get on these buses... AFAIC, I'd have a cop head counting the # of ppl. that gets on each bus (65-70 max) or w/e... then & only then would the b/o change the destination sign to the "correct" route it's operating as (while making all stops along the route thereafter).... I doubt most kids there are keen enough to notice when they see a yellow & blue depot logo of a front of a bus, pull up, that's not the B1, so don't get on it..... The problem w/ initially signing buses as "subway shuttles" would raise though, is, it's not considering the students that ride past the subway on both routes....

 

What I will say is, No bus around those times you mention should be leaving w/o standees... absolutely none.

----

 

 

B35, do you know if any other school gets so many bus riders (750 per hour at dismissal time)?

As far as bus riders.... I would guess, out there in Nassau county (NCC), but it's more than just 2 bus routes that serve the college though.... and there's about 4 or 5 bus stops w/i the campus itself, so the riders are rather spread out.... Other than that, nah, I can't think of any school that has ~ that high a frequency of students letting out @ a specific instance....

 

I know those Stony Brook students let out like mad, but the majority of those students (that take public transportation), take the LIRR (over the S71 & the 3D bus routes)....

 

Several years ago DOT proposed to extend the B74 to KCC.

Not for nothin, but there DO be extra 74's parked outside of the mermaid terminal (mermaid av, just short of stillwell).... Maybe not extend the route to KCC full time, but have those 2 or 3 buses or w/e DH over to KCC to assist the B1/B49 w/ all them kids.....

 

as was said prior, KCC itself's gonna have to get up off their behinds & come up w/ better efforts than they currently got going/are doing.... this isn't even close to 50/50; the MTA's doing most of the transporting, which is wrong - at this magnitude.

[B35 via Church]

I can name some too: All of the SI routes, but of course that has to do with the scheduling of the ferry and the long commutes for SI bus riders.

 

Which route were you thinking of?

 

The Q36 immediately comes to mind.... no way that route has 5 min headways, and (for whatever the reason, one to this day I cannot figure out) they got LTD's on it.

[checkmatechamp13]

The Q36 immediately comes to mind.... no way that route has 5 min headways, and (for whatever the reason, one to this day I cannot figure out) they got LTD's on it.

 

The idea is so that local riders don't get screwed, so they get a bus every 10 minutes or less.

 

* Riders along Jamaica Avenue have 10 minute service because the Q36 is local once it turns off Hillside Avenue (I can't confirm this because my computer can't open PDFs right now)

 

* Riders between Francis Lewis Blvd and 212th Place have the Q1 every 10 minutes (since all Q43s are limited in the peak direction)

 

* Riders west of Francis Lewis Blvd have the Q1, Q76, and Q77, so they obviously have service less than every 10 minutes.

 

I'm pretty sure the Q36 is like the Q43 (limited buses only in the peak direction), right?

 

I mean, it's the same situation with some of the Manhattan limiteds: The bus itself runs less often than every 5 minutes, but on the corridor overall, service is every 5 minutes or less.

[B35 via Church]

The idea is so that local riders don't get screwed, so they get a bus every 10 minutes or less.

 

* Riders along Jamaica Avenue have 10 minute service because the Q36 is local once it turns off Hillside Avenue (I can't confirm this because my computer can't open PDFs right now)

 

* Riders between Francis Lewis Blvd and 212th Place have the Q1 every 10 minutes (since all Q43s are limited in the peak direction)

 

* Riders west of Francis Lewis Blvd have the Q1, Q76, and Q77, so they obviously have service less than every 10 minutes.

 

I'm pretty sure the Q36 is like the Q43 (limited buses only in the peak direction), right?

 

I mean, it's the same situation with some of the Manhattan limiteds: The bus itself runs less often than every 5 minutes, but on the corridor overall, service is every 5 minutes or less.

 

The Q36 doesn't have the ridership though; that is what I don't understand about the throwing of LTD's on it.... The general setup on those 2 routes' LTD's are similar (the answer to your question is a yes, btw).... difference is, the amt of service of the LTD's itself

 

- Q43 LTD's come at better than 5 mins... and most of 'em be packed too...

- Q36 LTD's is more like every 7-10 mins (if you ask me)... and tend to be less packed than 43 LTD's, even though there are more 43 LTD runs...

 

I'm sure Q43LTD (the member here) will correct/clarify any of that....

[Olegkha]

KCC can help by doing very little

move some classes by 5 minutes. It is not much but kids will not be at the stop all at ones. If the rush hour was in full force for 2 hours now it will start 20 minutes early and end 20 minutes later but it will be only 75% as intense

( but they will never do it )

[BrooklynBus]

I'll do it like this...

 

I'll even go one further than that and say, this sounds like you need a policeman (not a KCC security guard, not a dispatcher, but an actual NYPD cop) to aid in getting these students on buses....

 

Actually, the students are fairly well behaved, not like rowdy high school students. Their biggest crime is that half of them have something stuck in their ear so they can't hear the driver if he makes any announcements to move to the back. I've also seen on numerous occasions them giving up their seats when an old person gets on. They've even offered me a seat on a number of occasions. The first time about three years ago, I actually was insulted by their generosity and shouted something at the kid. Then I realized I was three times the age of everyone on the bus and felt very old.

 

Also, I'm not sure what, or how displacing the students inside the campus (to wait for & eventually board buses) would help matters....I dunno, are you trying to say that there's no room for buses? b/c that sidewalk is long enough to have all those kids waiting..... If it's the mob mentality (the way kids are boarding the buses; bumrushing) that's part of the problem, moving the terminal aint goin change that at all.....

 

 

 

Well, they don't line up two by two, but they are fairly orderly in getting on. The problem is not the sidewalk. The loop is indented, and often there are too many buses that have to wait to get into the loop. The MTA wants to enlarge it. Since the stop is almost a quarter-mile from the college, to me it makes no sense to to build a larger loop at the current location. Perhaps a smaller loop could be built inside the college for shuttle buses and the yellow buses. That way everyone going to the subway would get on at the same place. The other buses could stay where they are.

 

 

To me, this is sounding like it's affecting the entire route (including the B1 west of the subway)...

 

Not really. At dismissal time only one out of four buses travels the entire B1. Some go to Ocean Parkway, 25 Ave, and 13th Avenue. There are several B49s to Avenue S and Empire Blvd and on bus shuttling to Sheepshead Bay Station. I think when you have all these extra B49s, some through buses (designated differently) should use the ore-1978 route and bypass the subway entirely saving about 15 minutes. They would get a seated load at the College and would be crowded by the time they reached Kings Highway. But that would just require too much imagination like separate Friday schedules with reduced service. On Friday afternoons, all the buses leave the college with only a handful of passengers. What a waste.

 

 

 

When we're talkin about ~750 riders an hour, that has got to change.... That is what I don't understand; getting buses leaving w/o standees.... the B1 cannot be that sought after.... iono, maybe buses should pull in signed as "SUBWAY SHUTTLE".... Any student wanting the subway would obviously get on these buses...What I will say is, No bus around those times you mention should be leaving w/o standees... absolutely none.

 

Actually, I was wrong about the 750 an hour. I just looked at last year's article http://www.sheepsheadbites.com/2010/10/is-the-mta-a-private-bus-service-for-kcc-students/ and the number was 1500 in 30 minutes! And that doesn't even consider the ones on the yellow buses (about 150 more)! That would make it 2,000 to 2500 in an hour! KCC definitely needs to contribute to the cost of that service.

 

The only reason why a B49 Shuttle would be leaving with a seated load has nothing to do with anyone going to subway not wanting to take the B49. What is happening is that when that B49 is loading, there are one or two B1s also loading at the same time and everyone is getting on those buses instead just because they are 100 feet closer to the college. If the dispatcher is not watching, the B49 driver wants to get out of there as soon as possible. I agree he should ait two or three more minutes to fill up, especially since many of those getting on after the college want to ride past the subway and let that bus pass anyway.

 

 

Not for nothin, but there DO be extra 74's parked outside of the mermaid terminal (mermaid av, just short of stillwell).... Maybe not extend the route to KCC full time, but have those 2 or 3 buses or w/e DH over to KCC to assist the B1/B49 w/ all them kids.....

 

as was said prior, KCC itself's gonna have to get up off their behinds & come up w/ better efforts than they currently got going/are doing.... this isn't even close to 50/50; the MTA's doing most of the transporting, which is wrong - at this magnitude.

 

Agree.

[checkmatechamp13]

The only reason why a B49 Shuttle would be leaving with a seated load has nothing to do with anyone going to subway not wanting to take the B49. What is happening is that when that B49 is loading, there are one or two B1s also loading at the same time and everyone is getting on those buses instead just because they are 100 feet closer to the college. If the dispatcher is not watching, the B49 driver wants to get out of there as soon as possible. I agree he should ait two or three more minutes to fill up, especially since many of those getting on after the college want to ride past the subway and let that bus pass anyway.

 

 

what is they have the B49 go directly behind the B1 (or if two buses are loading, they could put the B49 between the 2 B1s)

[BrooklynBus]

what is they have the B49 go directly behind the B1 (or if two buses are loading, they could put the B49 between the 2 B1s)

 

When the students are coming out of the college at a rapid rate, the idea is to get them on the buses as soon as possible without the crowd becoming too large which is why they try to load two or three buses at once. There is no coordination between the B1 and B49. The dispatcher may be standing at the B1 stand because most of the crowd would be there, so that gives the B49 the opportunity to leave while the dispatcher is preoccupied. He can't both places at the same time unless there is more than one.

 

What I said is that the B49s (especially the shuttle) should be held until it fills up to around 60 passengers, and not leave with 30. You might not want to delay the long bus if it is already late, but there is no harm in holding he shuttle since he won't be picking up anymore, most likely.

 

You really wouldn't want to hold the second B1 to insert the B49. It doesn't really matter if there are two B1s together, because most likely one or both are only going to 25th Avenue or Ocean Parkway, or perhaps 13th Avenue. You wouldn't see two Shore Road buses leave together.

[B35 via Church]

The only reason why a B49 Shuttle would be leaving with a seated load has nothing to do with anyone going to subway not wanting to take the B49. What is happening is that when that B49 is loading, there are one or two B1s also loading at the same time and everyone is getting on those buses instead just because they are 100 feet closer to the college. If the dispatcher is not watching, the B49 driver wants to get out of there as soon as possible.

 

guess you mean't wouldn't be....

 

See, I'm inclined to think it does to an extent.... The students (not all, of course) want to take the bus to Brighton bch so they have 1st dibs at a seat, and it's a couple mins. quicker to get to & what not..... It's not so much B1 vs B49 per say, but rather boarding the train at brighton beach (b1) over sheepshead bay (b49).... I don't think it's accidental that the B49 stop is further back (yes, the B49 comes less frequently, I know)....

 

I know the B1 stop is in "front"... What I'm gettin at is, If it were 2 B49's and a lone B1, you're giving off the impression that after those 3 buses pull off, there would be a few more ppl. waiting than if you had the 2 B1's & a 49....

 

I'd really like to know how things would be, if there were enough space to have the B1 adjacent the B49

(like out there in kings plaza where you have the B2 adjacent the B46.. sans the separator [that black gate] of course).....

 

 

He (dispatcher) can't both places at the same time unless there is more than one.

That's the main reason why I suggested a cop; manpower.... he has more power/authority than a dispatcher..... I didn't bring it up b/c I thought the kids were so badly behaved; more for enforcement purposes, get things moving a little more faster than w/e the current rate is....

 

1st bus... 65-70 kids... out

2nd bus.. 65-70 kids... out

3rd bus.. 65-70 kids... out

4th bus.. 65-70 kids... out

5th bus.. 65-70 kids... out

etc etc....

(notice I'm not sayin B1 or B49)....

 

It's gotta be like them dispatchers out there @ PABT... they get a certain headcount when them lines get longer, and them buses are gone, no frills (lol), no BS.... part of that is b/c there are other routes that stop w/i the same bay/lane, but still... that has to be the mentality when we're dealing with 2k-2.5k ppl per hour...

 

2500/60 ~ 40 somethin buses (b/w the B1 & B49) gotta come through there in a given hour to get all those ppl out.... 40 buses, you get 65 on each of em, what is that, 2600 ppl... so under that scenario, you'd be good....

 

iono, maybe surveys can be handed out & filled out by students, to get a gauge of what % of bus riders want the subway.... but like I said before, this should not be all on the MTA....

-----

 

Where do the students board the KCC shuttles at anyway?

[checkmatechamp13]

When the students are coming out of the college at a rapid rate, the idea is to get them on the buses as soon as possible without the crowd becoming too large which is why they try to load two or three buses at once. There is no coordination between the B1 and B49. The dispatcher may be standing at the B1 stand because most of the crowd would be there, so that gives the B49 the opportunity to leave while the dispatcher is preoccupied. He can't both places at the same time unless there is more than one.

 

What I said is that the B49s (especially the shuttle) should be held until it fills up to around 60 passengers, and not leave with 30. You might not want to delay the long bus if it is already late, but there is no harm in holding he shuttle since he won't be picking up anymore, most likely.

 

You really wouldn't want to hold the second B1 to insert the B49. It doesn't really matter if there are two B1s together, because most likely one or both are only going to 25th Avenue or Ocean Parkway, or perhaps 13th Avenue. You wouldn't see two Shore Road buses leave together.

 

You mean 4th Avenue, right? The B1/B64 were swapped.

 

In any case, you can have the setup like this:

 

1st bus: B1 short-turn (to Ocean Parkway or 25th Avenue or whereever)

2nd bus: B49 full-route

3rd bus: B1 full route

 

That way, everybody who just wants the subway will get on the first bus available (the B1 short-turn), and some will walk back to the B49. The B1 in the back will have mostly people going past the subway. The buses leave in the order they fill up, so you don't have to hold any buses (so the B49 shuttle would have to stay until it fills up)

 

I guess the problem would be that the last B1 would be all the way in the B49's bay, but there's nothing you can really do about that.

[BrooklynBus]

guess you mean't wouldn't be....

 

See, I'm inclined to think it does to an extent.... The students (not all, of course) want to take the bus to Brighton bch so they have 1st dibs at a seat, and it's a couple mins. quicker to get to & what not..... It's not so much B1 vs B49 per say, but rather boarding the train at brighton beach (b1) over sheepshead bay (b49).... I don't think it's accidental that the B49 stop is further back (yes, the B49 comes less frequently, I know)....

 

I know the B1 stop is in "front"... What I'm gettin at is, If it were 2 B49's and a lone B1, you're giving off the impression that after those 3 buses pull off, there would be a few more ppl. waiting than if you had the 2 B1's & a 49....

 

I'd really like to know how things would be, if there were enough space to have the B1 adjacent the B49

(like out there in kings plaza where you have the B2 adjacent the B46.. sans the separator [that black gate] of course).....

 

iono, maybe surveys can be handed out & filled out by students, to get a gauge of what % of bus riders want the subway.... but like I said before, this should not be all on the MTA....

-----

 

Where do the students board the KCC shuttles at anyway?

 

I know I used a lot of negatives in that statement but I think I said what I meant to say.

 

 

It doesn't matter if it were one B1 and 2 B49s or two B1s and 1 B49. If it was the former, they would just walk over to the B49. I really don't think the B and Q passengers really care what subway station they get on, although the B1 might be two minutes quicker to the train, but Sheepshead Bay is two minutes closer to Manhattan, so it really is a wash.

 

As far as getting a seat at Brighton Beach, that really is not an issue. There are enough seats for everyone at Sheepshead Bay at all times except between 7:30 and 9 AM which is not when the students are traveling home. Even if the seats are taken near the staircases, there are plenty of cars with plenty of seats available. Even between 7:30 and 9 AM, there is still a 75% chance you will get a seat at Sheepshead Bay on the express, and always on the local. In fact Sheepshead Bay has the advantage of not having to run from one platform to the other if you want to take the train that comes first and don't care if you get an express or local.

 

They board the yellow buses on KCC property. If one is waiting, they will take that bus. They prefer the yellow buses to the MTA buses, given a choice. Their next choice is the B1. If none is waiting,but a 49 is waiting, they will walk over to the B49, unless they must have the B1. The MTA shuttles do not have their own stops. There are 3 bays because DOT thought there were three routes, not realizing one of them was eliminated in 1978. So they named the middle one a drop-off stop for the B1 which is the only one that happens to have a double length shelter. So usually only Bays 1 and 3 are used for pickups. When the B1 shuttles are running, the dispatcher tries to use the first bay for the shuttle, and the drop-off bay for pick ups for the long route to get as many as possible in the shuttles which makes perfect sense.

 

They really could use a fourth bay. They might be able to redesign the existing space for four bays if they relocate the bays to be on a 45 degree angle and have four of them. The disadvantage of that is that the islands would be too narrow for shelters and also couldn't handle large crowds so I don't know if that would even work without using some park space to lengthen the terminal.

 

The existing bays are near each other except that there is room for the buses to pull out, so there is about 40 feet between the three bays. I think my idea of leaving everything where it is, except adding space in the college for the shuttles, so that they stop at the same location as the yellow buses would help. But KCC has to allow MTA buses on the property which they used to do for summer concerts. That way more buses could be loading at once.

 

Rather than surveying the students, the MTA should get the information from the college as to where the students are coming from and what times they are arriving and leaving. That way they could also get information as to who is driving to the school. The college provides student parking for $50 per semester on site and also uses the entire Manhattan Beach parking lot. A few also park on the streets. I think it has the highest number of students driving to school than any other college in the city and that number still represents only 10 to 20% of the student body. The rest use buses.

[Q43LTD]

The Q36 immediately comes to mind.... no way that route has 5 min headways, and (for whatever the reason, one to this day I cannot figure out) they got LTD's on it.

 

 

I can name some too: All of the SI routes, but of course that has to do with the scheduling of the ferry and the long commutes for SI bus riders.

 

Which route were you thinking of?

That's the same route (B35) was thinking of: the (Q36). Come to think of it, the (Q21) will be a LTD in January. WTH?

[B35 via Church]

It doesn't matter if it were one B1 and 2 B49s or two B1s and 1 B49. If it was the former, they would just walk over to the B49.

 

I really don't think the B and Q passengers really care what subway station they get on, although the B1 might be two minutes quicker to the train, but Sheepshead Bay is two minutes closer to Manhattan, so it really is a wash.

You were giving off a different impression earlier though.... sayin that B1's get 80 ppl. on em & the B49's get 65 on 'em or w/e.... I understand why checkmate said what he did in his penultimate post....

 

Lemme tell you... that 2 mins is all it takes for the masses to get fixated on considering a different route over the other, if gettin to the subway is the purpose.... yes, sittin down & analyzing it, you do break even.... But you're not thinkin about that when you're the person waiting @ a crowded stop (everyday)....

 

Anyway, of course this'll cost money, but that is why I think 2 parallel bays (instead of 1 stop behind the other) would get students on the bus a little faster, since the habit for those crowds is to remain stationary @ that B1 stop (since it's closer).... Instead of walking back to the 49, there will be 2 parallel buses right smack next to each other....

 

Now if they don't wanna walk 6 extra feet, well I don't know what else to say.....

 

 

As far as getting a seat at Brighton Beach, that really is not an issue. There are enough seats for everyone at Sheepshead Bay at all times except between 7:30 and 9 AM which is not when the students are traveling home. Even if the seats are taken near the staircases, there are plenty of cars with plenty of seats available. Even between 7:30 and 9 AM, there is still a 75% chance you will get a seat at Sheepshead Bay on the express, and always on the local. In fact Sheepshead Bay has the advantage of not having to run from one platform to the other if you want to take the train that comes first and don't care if you get an express or local.

Oh I know all about the disadvantages of having to "guess that track" the Q (well, B now) Brighton express was leaving off of first.... had to deal w/ that for 4 years (well, actually 3, since I started taking the 68 more during senior year)....

 

fact of the matter is, there are more KCC students boarding trains @ Brighton bch. then there are @ Sheepshead.... meaning, more kids are taking B1's than B49's... which is the essence of this problem we're tryna come up w/ some type of remedy to.... which is (no matter how minute) a reason why you titled this discussion "more problems on the B1"... instead of "more problems on the B1/B49" or ... "more problems @ KCC".....

 

Despite semantics, Could a slight increase in B49 service help out? most likely... While I don't know its headways, or how it's scheduled (off top) b/w 2-4pm or w/e, I can bet they're higher than that of the B1 - because you have more kids on B1's.....

 

 

The MTA shuttles do not have their own stops. There are 3 bays because DOT thought there were three routes, not realizing one of them was eliminated in 1978. So they named the middle one a drop-off stop for the B1 which is the only one that happens to have a double length shelter. So usually only Bays 1 and 3 are used for pickups. When the B1 shuttles are running, the dispatcher tries to use the first bay for the shuttle, and the drop-off bay for pick ups for the long route to get as many as possible in the shuttles which makes perfect sense.

So that's the story behind that other bay... good to know.

 

 

They really could use a fourth bay. They might be able to redesign the existing space for four bays if they relocate the bays to be on a 45 degree angle and have four of them. The disadvantage of that is that the islands would be too narrow for shelters and also couldn't handle large crowds so I don't know if that would even work without using some park space to lengthen the terminal.

The 45 degree angle thing..... Only thing I don't like about that, is that requires buses backing up (which means, even more space for buses to do so).... We don't wanna create a mini HTC (hempstead transit ctr) along Oriental blvd....

 

 

Rather than surveying the students, the MTA should get the information from the college as to where the students are coming from and what times they are arriving and leaving. That way they could also get information as to who is driving to the school. The college provides student parking for $50 per semester on site and also uses the entire Manhattan Beach parking lot. A few also park on the streets. I think it has the highest number of students driving to school than any other college in the city and that number still represents only 10 to 20% of the student body. The rest use buses.

Just by noting where the students live, doesn't tell you the students commuting habits though.... That may work for JHS & HS kids w/ handing out the student metro's (half or full fare) b/c the option of them driving to school is obviously eliminated (well, 100% eliminated for jhs kids anyway).....

 

Although KCC has more students, I think CSI & St John's might have more students driving to their respective campus'....

[B35 via Church]

That's the same route (B35) was thinking of: the (Q36).

 

Come to think of it, the (Q21) will be a LTD in January. WTH?

 

lol... It does make some sense to me.... I'll go in on that, in that thread Q101 Steinway started earlier.

[Olegkha]

You can not have 45 degree bays there, no room,

You can not have two buses next to each other, no room to make the u turn, Park will never give up their property and building there is going to cost money. There is room where we lay over to add another stop, fill up bus there and head into loop for the u turn. That is the only free space that is available.

Basically move back lay over spots and add a stop and a shelter right before the loop.

[BrooklynBus]

You were giving off a different impression earlier though.... sayin that B1's get 80 ppl. on em & the B49's get 65 on 'em or w/e....

 

Now if they don't wanna walk 6 extra feet, well I don't know what else to say.....

 

Those loadings are about right. The reason why the B1 is heavier, other than the students taking the closest bus, are that the subway serves almost the same area as the B49. I think the only ones using the B49 for a long trip are the ones transferring from another bus to avoid a second fare. If you are not transferring, it is much faster to take the Subway and transfer at Brighton or Sheepshead Bay instead. If they would allow a second transfer, many B49 riders would shift to the subway because it will still be faster because the B49 is incredibly slow. I've taken it during the midday and can tell you it stops at every single stop and at least ten people get off and or on at each stop. That's because the buses always have standees since they run at 12 minute headways all day long. Used to be 8.

 

a reason why you titled this discussion "more problems on the B1"... instead of "more problems on the B1/B49" or ... "more problems @ KCC".....

 

It is also a problem on the B49, but moreso on the B1. Yesterday at 4:30 PM I witnessed an old lady wanting to board the B49 on Shore Parkway north service road one stop before the Voorhies end of the subway station. The bus driver refused to open his door for her although there was room for one more person behind the white line. If everyone moved back, there was room for 10 more. It's not that he was saving any time by not picking her up either because he was stuck in traffic for a minute. So I went over and asked him why he didn't open the door. He responded, "Where am I going to put her?" I told him he had room. Why don't bus operators feel they have to ask anyone to move to the rear anymore?

 

I feel sorry for those people in their 70s and 80s having to wait in the cold a half hour when the winter comes because drivers don't make an attempt to pick up all the passengers when they can. On the 49 if 2 buses wont stop, you can wait a half hour even if the buses are running on schedule.

 

Also, at 3 PM, a few B49s should just load up with students not going to the subway until they have around 60 passengers. They should skip all stops until Avenue Z using the pre-1978 route. This simple change would save 15 minutes, in traveling the first 2 miles almost as much as the B44 SBS will save for the entire route. It would save money that could be used for extra service elsewhere, like to provide another subway shuttle. But that involves using your brain. If suggested, the MTA would only come up with ridiculous reasons why it shouldn't be done, when the real reason for not doing it is they didn't think of it.

 

 

 

Despite semantics, Could a slight increase in B49 service help out? most likely...

 

Yes, that would help. Last year when I met with a superintendent, she told me she was going to request additional service for the B1. Maybe I'm a conspiracy theorist, but coincidentally 2 months after she made that request, she was transferred and brought up on charges for cheating on her time. Why were they investigating her? All I can say is that both times I met her and wrote to her, she was very accommodating and tried to help out as much as she could. Not the type of employee the MTA wants. They only like you if you recommend cutting service, not adding any.

 

 

 

The 45 degree angle thing..... Only thing I don't like about that, is that requires buses backing up

 

I would never suggest buses having to back up. But there most likely is no room for that anyway.

 

 

 

You can not have 45 degree bays there, no room,

You can not have two buses next to each other, no room to make the u turn, Park will never give up their property and building there is going to cost money. There is room where we lay over to add another stop, fill up bus there and head into loop for the u turn. That is the only free space that is available.

Basically move back lay over spots and add a stop and a shelter right before the loop.

 

Glad there is a bus operator reading this. You are correct. That would be the simplest thing to do, but I don't know if that would help because the distance between the first and last bay would be a full block or 200 feet. After already walking 5 blocks from the college to the first bus stop, will they want to walk another block if buses are waiting closer to the college?

 

I still think the best solution would be to make room for just the shuttles to the subway on the Kingsborough campus. Maybe they would agree to that, since it would only be for a few hours each day. There certainly is room for another bus to stop at the main building in addition to the yellow bus.

[BrooklynBus]

You mean 4th Avenue, right? The B1/B64 were swapped.

 

In any case, you can have the setup like this:

 

1st bus: B1 short-turn (to Ocean Parkway or 25th Avenue or whereever)

2nd bus: B49 full-route

3rd bus: B1 full route

 

That way, everybody who just wants the subway will get on the first bus available (the B1 short-turn), and some will walk back to the B49. The B1 in the back will have mostly people going past the subway. The buses leave in the order they fill up, so you don't have to hold any buses (so the B49 shuttle would have to stay until it fills up)

 

I guess the problem would be that the last B1 would be all the way in the B49's bay, but there's nothing you can really do about that.

 

Of course I meant 4th Avenue.

 

But I'm not quite understanding what you are saying. Sounds a little confusing. It couldn't be a permanent set up, but only for around 3 PM. Might help then. But during non-peak times you shouldn't have to walk to the third bay for the full B1 when the shuttle is not operating or be forced to get off there. Also, where would the few B49 shuttles stop?

 

Also, there are no short turns to 25 Avenue. Those buses are probably running off not that it makes any difference for the purposes of this discussion.

[checkmatechamp13]

Of course I meant 4th Avenue.

 

But I'm not quite understanding what you are saying. Sounds a little confusing. It couldn't be a permanent set up, but only for around 3 PM. Might help then. But during non-peak times you shouldn't have to walk to the third bay for the full B1 when the shuttle is not operating or be forced to get off there. Also, where would the few B49 shuttles stop?

 

Also, there are no short turns to 25 Avenue. Those buses are probably running off not that it makes any difference for the purposes of this discussion.

 

Yes, it would only be the setup for around 3PM. The B49 shuttle would stop between the 2 B1s (or if the goal is to get more people onto the B49, have it stop in the front, but don't leave it all the way in the back like it is now)

 

Basically, during school hours, put the shuttles in front so that (hopefully) the regular buses have some room for the regular passengers (and the shuttles will leave full rather than with 30 people)

 

And I didn't realize there weren't any short-turns to 25th Avenue, but you get the idea: Short-turns in front, full runs in the back (and if you have 2 short-turns, put the one traveling the shorter distance in front)