Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[qjtransitmaster]

why do subways cost so much to build in NYC?

[AndrewJC]

And by the time they get to Phases 3 and 4 (IF they ever do), then we might also see them decide to connect the SAS to the Nassau Street line instead (remember, we are a LONG way off before that would happen and anything can between now and then).

 

 

That would require extending platforms at the Nassau Street stations, which is easier said than done. I don't even know how it would be pulled off at Fulton Street.

 

It also wouldn't serve the Water Street corridor, and it would probably require cutting the J back to Chambers, cutting direct access to the Financial District from a lot of Brooklyn and Queens residents.

[Roadcruiser1]

why do subways cost so much to build in NYC?

 

 

Environmental studies, lots of people, valuable real estate property. The list goes on.

[realizm]

That is NOW. We are many, many years away from Phases 3/4 even starting (IF they ever do), and my point was, things can change. Someone else 15 years from now (the earliest I see Phase 3 even starting) might decide they need to revisit things concerning Phases 3/4 for all we know. That was my point.

 

 

I agree. Many people are moving into new neighborhoods and very likely that trend will steadly increase in the years to come. A New Yorker can only wonder that if in the coming decade that eventually a Bronx extension as part of actual Phase 2 construction may very seriously need to be considered. To further shift the demand off Lexington Avenue as an added benefit of Phase 2 construction with a Bronx extension provision in order. I imagine the population in Harlem and the UES is also steadly increasing.

[Brighton Express]

I understand what you are saying, but we should not deal with that until we see a dramatic population increase in the Bronx. Imagine all the money it would take to construct an EL or yet another tunnel, a water crossing, fill it with stations, etc.

[realizm]

I understand what you are saying, but we should not deal with that until we see a dramatic population increase in the Bronx. Imagine all the money it would take to construct an EL or yet another tunnel, a water crossing, fill it with stations, etc.

 

 

True but remember that recent proposals calls for an overhaul of existing IRT lines in the Bronx such as the WPR or Pelham Bay lines for 2nd Ave line service. But yes otherwise population stats will have to change and we may just have to wait a couple of decades before that happens. With Phase 2 construction to 125th Street, pre-engineered leads towards the Bronx is supposed to be incorporated into the tunnels at a point before the newly proposed tunnels turn west heading to its uptown Manhattan terminal at 125th Street.

 

Otherwise I am in agreement with you, as this is a very costly project to complete among other things. It may meet up with opposition as it will disrupt the flow of things in more neighborhoods whenever the new extension is constructed. If it happens.

Edited November 8, 2012 by realizm

[Roadcruiser1]

True but remember that recent proposals calls for an overhaul of existing IRT lines in the Bronx such as the WPR or Pelham Bay lines for 2nd Ave line service. But yes otherwise population stats will have to change and we may just have to wait a couple of decades before that happens. With Phase 2 construction to 125th Street, pre-engineered leads towards the Bronx is supposed to be incorporated into the tunnels at a point before the newly proposed tunnels turn west heading to its uptown Manhattan terminal at 125th Street.

 

Otherwise I am in agreement with you, as this is a very costly project to complete among other things. It may meet up with opposition as it will disrupt the flow of things in more neighborhoods whenever the new extension is constructed. If it happens.

 

 

You would never see the if ever comes to existence run on the IRT Branches in the Bronx. It would run on it's own ROW. Probably above the Park Avenue MNRR Line near Third Avenue.

[Grand Concourse]

Someone said that it could be possible to annex the Pelham line past Whitlock. Obviously to do that would mean to cut the short, but even so, 3rd av is where the SAS should be built under/over as there's a big space lacking subway service.

[qjtransitmaster]

Environmental studies, lots of people, valuable real estate property. The list goes on.

but why is it so cheap in other countries? so unnecessary studies bring up the costs or stupidly expensive consultants the worst expense I was looking for PM me some of it. Edited November 8, 2012 by qjtransitmaster

[Grand Concourse]

To sum it up: the rock which Manhattan sits on is tough to dig thru, you have miles of existing utilities and pipes to move out of the way to accommodate the tunnel, environmental studies, people wanting minimal disturbance..... it all adds up.

[Metro CSW]

 

PHOTO UPDATES HERE.

 

 

[Roadcruiser1]

but why is it so cheap in other countries? so unnecessary studies bring up the costs or stupidly expensive consultants the worst expense I was looking for PM me some of it.

 

 

They do. It's just difficult in New York City because there are tons of stuff underground, and then you are trying to build a new subway. It's extremely complex.

[CenSin]

They do. It's just difficult in New York City because there are tons of stuff underground, and then you are trying to build a new subway. It's extremely complex.

 

And then there are lawsuits, rising costs of materials, and overpaid/unnecessary personnel.

[qjtransitmaster]

And then there are lawsuits, rising costs of materials, and overpaid/unnecessary personnel.

 

an example of which personnel? why can't 2nd ave subway be elevated instead?

 

or if it must be underground why not turn 3rd and 1st aves into 2 way streets then shut down 2nd ave and compensate all businesses there and get it over with? Personally I'd prefer an elevated option as it won't affect whats underground as much.

[Drag0nflamez]

an example of which personnel? why can't 2nd ave subway be elevated instead?

 

or if it must be underground why not turn 3rd and 1st aves into 2 way streets then shut down 2nd ave and compensate all businesses there and get it over with? Personally I'd prefer an elevated option as it won't affect whats underground as much.

 

Because it would have too much of an environmental impact, it's not as cheap as in other countries, because in London, even a smaller diameter tunnel (the Jubilee line, for instance), cost 3.5 billion pounds, so basically, unless you want to kill off all health & safety laws, destroy the unions etc etc etc it can't be done cheaper.

[qjtransitmaster]

Because it would have too much of an environmental impact, it's not as cheap as in other countries, because in London, even a smaller diameter tunnel (the Jubilee line, for instance), cost 3.5 billion pounds, so basically, unless you want to kill off all health & safety laws, destroy the unions etc etc etc it can't be done cheaper.

 

unions have the unneeded personnel?

[Grand Concourse]

an example of which personnel? why can't 2nd ave subway be elevated instead?

 

or if it must be underground why not turn 3rd and 1st aves into 2 way streets then shut down 2nd ave and compensate all businesses there and get it over with? Personally I'd prefer an elevated option as it won't affect whats underground as much.

 

have you been on 2nd av? There's no way anyone would approve of an el there. Manhattan has no els except for the 1 line and that's only because the land elevation changes drastically. This stuff has been talked about, just go back and read the older posts. Edited December 23, 2012 by Grand Concourse

[Wallyhorse]

have you been on 2nd av? There's no way anyone would approve of an el there. Manhattan has no els except for the 1 line and that's only because the land elevation changes drastically. This stuff has been talked about, just go back and read the older posts.

 

Actually, a lot of the NIMBYs lost their statue post-Sandy with all the flooded tunnels. Except for the Rockaway branch, the els all survived quite nicely, and the ones I'd be looking to build would be much stronger than those (to help with noise abatement among other things).

 

The said, the only part of the SAS I would look at doing as elevated would be the very end of Phase 2, mainly to take advantage of the already-built tunnels (and to save money), though with provisions to take that branch of the SAS all the way across 125th (to connect with all of the other lines across 125) at a later time, especially as Columbia completes its expansion as well as one that would allow for a later expansion via a new, rail-only bridge to the Bronx and a future rebuild of the Bronx portion of the old 3rd Avenue El.

 

I personally do think new elevated lines need to be looked at in the future, especially if as many think we will have more Sandy-like storms hitting.

[CenSin]

Actually, a lot of the NIMBYs lost their statue post-Sandy with all the flooded tunnels. Except for the Rockaway branch, the els all survived quite nicely, and the ones I'd be looking to build would be much stronger than those (to help with noise abatement among other things).

 

The said, the only part of the SAS I would look at doing as elevated would be the very end of Phase 2, mainly to take advantage of the already-built tunnels (and to save money), though with provisions to take that branch of the SAS all the way across 125th (to connect with all of the other lines across 125) at a later time, especially as Columbia completes its expansion as well as one that would allow for a later expansion via a new, rail-only bridge to the Bronx and a future rebuild of the Bronx portion of the old 3rd Avenue El.

 

I personally do think new elevated lines need to be looked at in the future, especially if as many think we will have more Sandy-like storms hitting.

 

And then when a blizzard comes and covers all the exposed tracks to snow…

[qjtransitmaster]

And then when a blizzard comes and covers all the exposed tracks to snow…

 

and your point other places in the bronx have ELs all over so why can't manhattan have at least 1 more it's not like a whole network of em can be built I am not suggesting several ELs all over just 1. But if wallyhorse is right about tunnels already being there then nevermind.

 

UPDATE: never mind construction was already started on tunnel segments so it's too late for another manhattan EL ohh well.

Edited December 24, 2012 by qjtransitmaster

[Metro CSW]

Yeah, but let's leave the planning to the . Shall we?

[CenSin]

and your point other places in the bronx have ELs all over so why can't manhattan have at least 1 more it's not like a whole network of em can be built I am not suggesting several ELs all over just 1. But if wallyhorse is right about tunnels already being there then nevermind.

 

UPDATE: never mind construction was already started on tunnel segments so it's too late for another manhattan EL ohh well.

 

I was pointing out the fact that Wally's reason for building an elevated line had an equal and opposite reason for not building one. I couldn't care less what ended up on 2 Avenue as long as they get the job done.

Edited December 24, 2012 by CenSin

[qjtransitmaster]

I was pointing out the fact that Wally's reason for building an elevated line had an equal and opposite reason for not building one. I couldn't care less what ended up on 2 Avenue as long as they get the job done.

you have a point I think MTA made a good choice.

[Art Vandelay]

Nothing equal about it. Elevateds get shut down a LOT more than subways. Especially in manhattan, it would cost more to build an elevated considering the amount of land you would have to take to build the portal.

 

And regardless of what anyone says, the NIMBY reaction would be not only universal but also wholly justified.

[qjtransitmaster]

Nothing equal about it. Elevateds get shut down a LOT more than subways. Especially in manhattan, it would cost more to build an elevated considering the amount of land you would have to take to build the portal.

 

And regardless of what anyone says, the NIMBY reaction would be not only universal but also wholly justified.

 

dude I think we are already done with the idea of ELs in manhattan it's been killed and we get it it's not needed idea is now dead.