Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[lupojohn]

I would believe so.

 

When they opened the Archer Ave Extension back in December 1988 for revenue service, they opened all three stations (Van Wyck, Suphin Blvd  and Jamaica Center) on both the upper and lower level simultaneously in one shot with outstanding success. So judging by how the MTA handled the opening of the Archer Ave extension for revenue service back then, then I would agree with you on the fact that they will open the 2nd Ave Line in the same exact fashion, 63rd/Lex, 72nd, 86th and 96th Street stations all at once in December 2016.

That's what they're doing. Exactly as how I said it. 72nd, 86th and 96th all open during Phase 1. I didn't include 63rd and Lex because it's an existing station undergoing renovation.

[realizm]

That's what they're doing. Exactly as how I said it. 72nd, 86th and 96th all open during Phase 1. I didn't include 63rd and Lex because it's an existing station undergoing renovation.

 

 

I fully understand that 63rd/Lex is an existing station being renovated into an island platform for BMT Broadway bound/2nd Ave bound trains with walls retiled and new exits. That's pretty apparent to all of us.

 

They originally built that station with the SAS in mind as well as original plans for IND/BMT/2nd Ave Phase 1 and 2 with spurs west of the station for Phase 3 subway access from Sunnyside Yard (i.e Queens Super Express option)  to allow for subway trains to bypass the Queens Blvd Line reentering the QBL @ Union Turnpike, taking advantage of westbound spurs originally built by the IND for Jamaica Yard access in reverse direction for out of service trains headed to Jamaica Yard from 179th Street.

 

Of course that original plan changed in 1993, and they closed up the original bellmouths as a result when construction began in 1995 where they redirected the ROW to 36th street on the QBL instead of Sunnyside Yard, while converting existing LIRR infrastructure (for dual railroad/subway service) to Union Turnpike on the QBL. (I'm referring to the upper level of the 63rd St Line, not the lower level for the LIRR)

 

That was the whole point of the 63rd Street line when it was under construction in the late 60's and 70's - QBL access, SAS access and BMT Broadway/IND 6th Ave access. Also for LIRR access to Grand Central Station utilizing the lower level of the line. That's why they built a false wall in the first place, @  63rd St/Lex that can be easily dismantled when the SAS is finally built, something that is in progress right now as we can clearly see. That's why the wooden temporary wall is there @ 63rd/Lex, they are tearing that false wall down as we speak. 

 

I'm sure you know this already, I am just reciting this for the record.

Edited February 14, 2013 by realizm

[realizm]

They originally built that station with the SAS in mind as well as original plans for IND/BMT/2nd Ave Phase 1 and 2 with spurs west east of the station for Phase 3 subway access from Sunnyside Yard (i.e Queens Super Express option)  to allow for subway trains to bypass the Queens Blvd Line reentering the QBL @ Union Turnpike, taking advantage of westbound spurs originally built by the IND for Jamaica Yard access in reverse direction for out of service trains headed to Jamaica Yard from 179th Street.

 

*Correction: the spurs for phase 3 SAS access east from the station.

[Far Rock Depot]

It seems as though they're opening it station by station. 72nd, 86th and 96th will open during Phase 1 of the plan. There are already logos on R32 rollsigns in the form of a black letter in a white circle.

they will open it with phases, as you stated-but techincally not station by station,as was asked referring to each individual station-and right now, only phase one is definite, as we all know.  The "T" rollsigns on the 32s has nothing to do with 2nd ave. They have all the unused letters in black in a white bullet. Back in the 70s, one of the original options for routes on 2nd ave was V, W and even flirted with a Y. 

[Drag0nflamez]

I fully understand that 63rd/Lex is an existing station being renovated into an island platform for BMT Broadway bound/2nd Ave bound trains with walls retiled and new exits. That's pretty apparent to all of us.

 

They originally built that station with the SAS in mind as well as original plans for IND/BMT/2nd Ave Phase 1 and 2 with spurs west of the station for Phase 3 subway access from Sunnyside Yard (i.e Queens Super Express option)  to allow for subway trains to bypass the Queens Blvd Line reentering the QBL @ Union Turnpike, taking advantage of westbound spurs originally built by the IND for Jamaica Yard access in reverse direction for out of service trains headed to Jamaica Yard from 179th Street.

 

Of course that original plan changed in 1993, and they closed up the original bellmouths as a result when construction began in 1995 where they redirected the ROW to 36th street on the QBL instead of Sunnyside Yard, while converting existing LIRR infrastructure (for dual railroad/subway service) to Union Turnpike on the QBL. (I'm referring to the upper level of the 63rd St Line, not the lower level for the LIRR)

 

That was the whole point of the 63rd Street line when it was under construction in the late 60's and 70's - QBL access, SAS access and BMT Broadway/IND 6th Ave access. Also for LIRR access to Grand Central Station utilizing the lower level of the line. That's why they built a false wall in the first place, @  63rd St/Lex that can be easily dismantled when the SAS is finally built, something that is in progress right now as we can clearly see. That's why the wooden temporary wall is there @ 63rd/Lex, they are tearing that false wall down as we speak. 

 

I'm sure you know this already, I am just reciting this for the record.

The 63rd Street line probably is one of the best examples of good transit planning too. It cost about 1.5 billion dollars, and that's fairly cheap for a tunnel that does this much.

[Grand Concourse]

Well, $1.5 billion in 1970s dollars. I'm sure if you account for inflation, it'll cost much more than that in today's amount. Maybe like $9+ billion (using an inflation calculator 1969 compared to 2012).

 

As for the all at once thing for phase 1, ok, I stand corrected. But I still think they should put more priority to getting 72nd st opened first so they can at least run the Q thru 63rd and connect to the F. But again, imo.

Edited February 14, 2013 by Grand Concourse

[Far Rock Depot]

Well, $1.5 billion in 1970s dollars. I'm sure if you account for inflation, it'll cost much more than that in today's amount. Maybe like $9+ billion (using an inflation calculator 1969 compared to 2012).

 

As for the all at once thing for phase 1, ok, I stand corrected. But I still think they should put more priority to getting 72nd st opened first so they can at least run the Q thru 63rd and connect to the F. But again, imo.

That would shave off minutes off of the commutes of those who need both QBL Express AND Broadway Express. Unfortunately, The MTa isnt thinking that way with its plan for all 3 SAS stations to be completed at the same time. All delayed BTW. 

[lupojohn]

I fully understand that 63rd/Lex is an existing station being renovated into an island platform for BMT Broadway bound/2nd Ave bound trains with walls retiled and new exits. That's pretty apparent to all of us.

 

They originally built that station with the SAS in mind as well as original plans for IND/BMT/2nd Ave Phase 1 and 2 with spurs west of the station for Phase 3 subway access from Sunnyside Yard (i.e Queens Super Express option)  to allow for subway trains to bypass the Queens Blvd Line reentering the QBL @ Union Turnpike, taking advantage of westbound spurs originally built by the IND for Jamaica Yard access in reverse direction for out of service trains headed to Jamaica Yard from 179th Street.

 

Of course that original plan changed in 1993, and they closed up the original bellmouths as a result when construction began in 1995 where they redirected the ROW to 36th street on the QBL instead of Sunnyside Yard, while converting existing LIRR infrastructure (for dual railroad/subway service) to Union Turnpike on the QBL. (I'm referring to the upper level of the 63rd St Line, not the lower level for the LIRR)

 

That was the whole point of the 63rd Street line when it was under construction in the late 60's and 70's - QBL access, SAS access and BMT Broadway/IND 6th Ave access. Also for LIRR access to Grand Central Station utilizing the lower level of the line. That's why they built a false wall in the first place, @  63rd St/Lex that can be easily dismantled when the SAS is finally built, something that is in progress right now as we can clearly see. That's why the wooden temporary wall is there @ 63rd/Lex, they are tearing that false wall down as we speak. 

 

I'm sure you know this already, I am just reciting this for the record.

You're correct in that I know this all already and let me add that I loved the 63rd Street station before the renovation. Coolest station for me in the entire line(that's now designated for Far Rockaway-Mott Avenue). I read a while ago that there are secret tracks behind the walls and that's how they're to able to start work on the SAS. It is the narrowest platform to stand on, though. I had a cop position me cause he told me I was too far over. Shame it's gonna be turned into an island platform(which I like), because those 3 stops(63rd and Lex, 21 St-Queensbridge and Roosevelt Island) are unique.

[Far Rock Depot]

You're correct in that I know this all already and let me add that I loved the 63rd Street station before the renovation. Coolest station for me in the entire line(that's now designated for Far Rockaway-Mott Avenue). I read a while ago that there are secret tracks behind the walls and that's how they're to able to start work on the SAS. It is the narrowest platform to stand on, though. I had a cop position me cause he told me I was too far over. Shame it's gonna be turned into an island platform(which I like), because those 3 stops(63rd and Lex, 21 St-Queensbridge and Roosevelt Island) are unique.

It was fasinating for me to find out back in the early 90s that the 63rd/lex station was basically opened as "half a station" for future Second Ave service. there are even narrower platforms in the system ( a few on the Brighton and Sea Beach come to mind).  On a side note, for me personally, the coolest station is Roosevelt Island, with a nod to the new Howard Beach/JFK station. The three Archer Ave Ext stops from 1988 has me in awe when i first saw them with my own eyes when i was 12 in 1989! Especially Jamaica-Van Wyck.

[realizm]

It was fasinating for me to find out back in the early 90s that the 63rd/lex station was basically opened as "half a station" for future Second Ave service. there are even narrower platforms in the system ( a few on the Brighton and Sea Beach come to mind).  On a side note, for me personally, the coolest station is Roosevelt Island, with a nod to the new Howard Beach/JFK station. The three Archer Ave Ext stops from 1988 has me in awe when i first saw them with my own eyes when i was 12 in 1989! Especially Jamaica-Van Wyck.

 

Remember when they used to have sunshine rays coming through the windows at Jamaica-Van Wyck? And then we had Supercat, Wu-tang Clan, crazy ill house beats and all that goodness? Yes we are Generation Y!! Lol.

 

Here, pic courtesy of subchat.org (credits to Wayne Whitehorne) after it was some years after it's grand opening for revenue service:

 

Edited February 15, 2013 by realizm

[Far Rock Depot]

I remember that well. That station isnt the same since they covered up the windows.

[Tokkemon]

Why were the windows covered anyway?

[Metro CSW]

Completion award for the 72nd Street/2nd Avenue Subway Station.

[realizm]

Why were the windows covered anyway?

 

I'm honestly stumped on that one. I even googled it with no results. What they did though was literally put drapes over the windows. Only a seasoned transit worker working the IND over several years can answer that question if he ever sees your post. Maybe Trainmaster5 may know. Send him a PM with a reply.

[Metro CSW]

That's really a mystery to me. Most are saying that the station looks so dim now. Just read a page from the straphanger champaign.

[realizm]

 

Why were the windows covered anyway?

Remember when they used to have sunshine rays coming through the windows at Jamaica-Van Wyck? And then we had Supercat, Wu-tang Clan, crazy ill house beats and all that goodness? Yes we are Generation Y!! Lol.

 

Here, pic courtesy of subchat.org (credits to Wayne Whitehorne) after it was some years after it's grand opening for revenue service:

 

 

I remember that well. That station isnt the same since they covered up the windows.

 

I'm honestly stumped on that one. I even googled it with no results. What they did though was literally put drapes over the windows. Only a seasoned transit worker working the IND over several years can answer that question if he ever sees your post. Maybe Trainmaster5 may know. Send him a PM with a reply.

 

That's really a mystery to me. Most are saying that the station looks so dim now. Just read a page from the straphanger champaign.

 

Into the twilight zone we go on this fundamental question. I bet even Two Timer cannot come up with an answer for this one, it's so mind boggling.

Edited February 16, 2013 by realizm

[Eric B]

It looks like they have boards over the windows. In later years, it looked like the windows were plastic, and no longer clear (the way plastic loses its transparence after time, especially with weather and perhaps vandalism), and the station has already dimmed.

I wanted to send in a suuggestion to replace them with glass bricks, like at Stillwell.

[realizm]

It looks like they have boards over the windows. In later years, it looked like the windows were plastic, and no longer clear (the way plastic loses its transparence after time, especially with weather and perhaps vandalism), and the station has already dimmed.

I wanted to send in a suuggestion to replace them with glass bricks, like at Stillwell.

I never got that. There are many stations with windows allowing for natural sunlight to come underground (Alantic-Pacific BMT, 96th Street IRT) but on this one, I swear this was a question I was asking myself since I was 19 years old. It's driving me crazy sir.

Edited February 16, 2013 by realizm

[Far Rock Depot]

Why were the windows covered anyway?

 

 

I'm honestly stumped on that one. I even googled it with no results. What they did though was literally put drapes over the windows. Only a seasoned transit worker working the IND over several years can answer that question if he ever sees your post. Maybe Trainmaster5 may know. Send him a PM with a reply.

Now i cant remember where i got this info from-and i know i understood why because ive seen it myself before they covered them up-but there was a graffiti problem. Not surprised since taggers can just climb over the gate or drop down from the service road. 

[realizm]

Now i cant remember where i got this info from-and i know i understood why because ive seen it myself before they covered them up-but there was a graffiti problem. Not surprised since taggers can just climb over the gate or drop down from the service road. 

 

That was my initial thought. If you ever been at Hillcrest or Jamaica High School we had alot of infamous graffiti artists there who had that station on target. But no official confirmation from the MTA or the press, that's why years later I'm asking myself this question as to why they blocked those windows. I think you may be right as we both came from Queens, back in the days.

[Trainmaster5]

I'm honestly stumped on that one. I even googled it with no results. What they did though was literally put drapes over the windows. Only a seasoned transit worker working the IND over several years can answer that question if he ever sees your post. Maybe Trainmaster5 may know. Send him a PM with a reply.

I honestly don't know the answer. We've got to find a seasoned IND person to find out the 411. I'm an old time IND rider but I'm clueless on this one.

[Metro CSW]

I think I need my 3-D glasses to read the quotes at post 941.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Metro CSW

[realizm]

^ Lol. It's IP Board Abstract Art creativity on my part. I can be pretty creative with my posts.

[realizm]

I honestly don't know the answer. We've got to find a seasoned IND person to find out the 411. I'm an old time IND rider but I'm clueless on this one.

 

One of the big mysteries of the universe lol. We'll never really know, that's what makes the MTA such a awesome system  with puzzles we cannot ever unravel, rapid transit civil servant or straphanger alike. 

 

Edit: I sent SnowBlock a PM. Maybe he knows.... I cant be trapped in a battle of insomnia over this question...

Edited February 16, 2013 by realizm

[realizm]

Oh well, I think he went to sleep, long shift probably. Carry on guys.....