Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[Wallyhorse]

So Basically, for clarity, here’s what I think is the best case scenario if you must have 1 local Astoria Line and no 34th Street switching:

 

: NO CHANGE - 96st-Coney Island via Broadway Express, all times (Broadway Local Late Nights) 

 

: NO CHANGE - Forest Hills- Bay Ridge via Broadway Local (Northbound terminus Whitehall Late Nights)

 

: Astoria-Coney Island, all times, via Broadway/4th Ave Local, Montague, via Sea Beach. Some southbound short turns at Whitehall during Rush to allow for at Kings Hwy (Operates over bridge Weekends, maybe)

 

, mimicking the old route: 96st/2nd Ave-Kings Highway or 9th Ave if 4ave Exp tunnel is under construction: Weekdays, Broadway Express, via Bridge, 4th Ave Express to Kings Highway, with 15 min headways during Middays (so most Sea Beach commuters get Weekday Express and Weekend Bridge service)

 

This, way, there is no merging issues, DeKalb doesn’t have as many weekday Broadway Bridge traffic, so there is more flexibility, and neither Sea Beach or Astoria passengers would feel like they are getting played, as all of Sea Beach but Ave U and 86st keeps an Express, and Astoria keeps a weekend Bridge, full-time line. 

 

Does that align with your idea better?

My thoughts:

 

Having the and both going through the tunnel at all times is good because it gives 4th Avenue riders two locals at all times,

 

Turning the into the 4th Avenue Express over the Bridge works, though I would have it start with the at Coney Island so Sea Beach Riders have the full route (or if need be, extend the and some trains through Coney Island to run to Ocean Parkway on the Brighton Line and terminate there, if necessary building new switches between the express tracks at both ends of that station).

[Bill from Maspeth]

Well, as someone who lives in Astoria and sees 35% of the passengers wait for the other Astoria Line, I can tell you it’s super important to have both the and a supplemental line (the now) in place. Astoria needs considerably more service, not less, and considering that 39th Avenue/Queensboro is becoming a mini-manhattan, the TPH up the Astoria Line is going to have to increase dramatically to not have extreme overcrowding. 

 

Is there anything wrong with the current service pattern? There is always standing room on the SAS during peak periods as I see it (especially with the going up virtually every midday) and there hasn’t been one rush hour commute in three weeks that I’ve had where we don’t leave someone at Queensboro Plaza. 

 

Side note: It’s also kind of funny (in a weird way) to see Wallyhorse’s obsession of making the the 24/7 Astoria Line, in all of his convoluted Astoria Line proposals, the gets booted from it’s primary role, which is oddly coincidental, I guess. 

 

I'm not sure how any more service can be sent up the Astoria line due to terminal operations at Ditmars.  It takes time for the trains to switch over from one track to another and the slow speeds required to approach the bumper blocks.

[R42N]

In that scenario, all you've done is swapped the designation and designation and swapped the terminals, which managing to remove Sea Beach's weekend express service, added another weekday merge point between the at 59th Street and created fumigation delays at Kings Highway... No bueno.

 

Astoria (and Sea Beach) would always have a weekend Bridge route if the were the only service there, as it would follow the current weekend service pattern. That is not a point of contention.

Responses to your points:

 

1) Yes, I switched the designations. While it shouldn't effect service pattern, all of my colleagues at my company refer to the line as the / , as that was is most familiarly known as. In Ditmars, Last Stop Cafe, Mike's Diner, and Medetierainian Foods all have some sort of permanent artwork/murals depicting the in Astoria. In Bensonhurst, all of the posters depict restoration to the , as the constant in the ever-changing restoration work. Remember the (V)/(M) merger? Despite swallowing up all but one of the Stops, and serving zero Nassau or Southern Brooklyn stops, the MTA chose the designation as that was more universially accespted and recognized within the community. Same applies here.

 

2) The Weekend service would still run over the bridge, and with all of the restoration work up the 4th Ave Tunnel, there would be no guarantees it would go either local or express. This would really only be the case if the express tunnels were to be OOS between 36 and 59. This gives Sea Beach passengers the option of Financial District on Weekdays in the (and eliminate a transfer to the ) or a midtown express via Bridge in the .

 

3) Perhaps you didnt read it all. Some (N)'s would short-turn southbound at Whitehall, which would reduce the number of TPH of (N)'s out of Sea Beach from 10 to 7. Then, you could add the 4-5 Express (maybe from Coney like Wallyhorse smartly pointed out if you don't want Kings Hwy fumigation). And have 1-2 (W)'s short turn at 9ave. That's 7 extra TPH up SAS (an increase from 15 to 22, which is probably the most 2nd Ave could host as of now), and 2 extra TPH up Sea Beach, and the same amounts up Astoria. And, considering only 6-7 (W)'s would run per hour (not nearly as much as the current of 10), you would have space to add a or two since Dekalb would have less stress.

Edited August 14, 2017 by R42N

[Jemorie]

In that scenario, all you've done is swapped the designation and designation and swapped the terminals, which managing to remove Sea Beach's weekend express service, added another weekday merge point between the at 59th Street and created fumigation delays at Kings Highway... No bueno.

 

Astoria (and Sea Beach) would always have a weekend Bridge route if the were the only service there, as it would follow the current weekend service pattern. That is not a point of contention. 

 

This is correct because many Sea Beach Line riders are on their way to Chinatown, SoHo, and Midtown. And also Long Island City (I think?).

 

Anyway yeah, like I said before, the Sea Beach Line riders are the only reason why the is being kept express along 4th Avenue and Broadway via the bridge (weekdays) or just 4th Avenue via the bridge (weekends).

[RR503]

Wait why are running a Sea Beach Express service? Seems.... useless -- it's already express on 4th Ave.

[Jemorie]

Wait why are running a Sea Beach Express service? Seems.... useless -- it's already express on 4th Ave.

 

If you're referring to my post, that's not what I said. I said that the Sea Beach Line has many of its riders all bound for Chinatown, SoHo, Midtown, and LIC, which is why the runs express along 4th Ave and Broadway so that Sea Beach Line riders don't have to deal with all those local stops along 4th Ave and Broadway.

 

If you're referring to why Coney Island-bound trains run express along Sea Beach, it's because of ongoing construction of those stations that need a long rehab work.

[CenSin]

My thoughts:

 

Having the and both going through the tunnel at all times is good because it gives 4th Avenue riders two locals at all times,

Having all trains run local is good because it gives everyone more locals!

[Wallyhorse]

Wait why are running a Sea Beach Express service? Seems.... useless -- it's already express on 4th Ave.

I think he meant a 4th Avenue/Broadway express from Kings Highway for the (that would run to 96th/2nd and later 125th/2nd) while the would run Coney Island to Astoria as a 4th Avenue/Broadway Local.

 

My idea is similar but would operate like this:

 

operates from Coney Island to Astoria via Sea Beach Local, 4th Avenue Local, Montague Tunnel, Broadway Local and 60th Street Tunnel at all times.

 

is unchanged (Coney Island to 96/125 via Brighton Local, Manhattan Bridge, Broadway Express, 63rd Street and SAS).

 

is unchanged (95th Street to 71st-Continental via 4th Avenue Local, Montague Tunnel, Broadway Local, 60th Street and Queens Bouelvard Local, late nights to Whitehall Street).

 

operates (with new switches past both ends of the station on the express track) from Ocean Parkway on the Brighton Line through Coney Island to 96th/125th Street via Sea Beach Local, 4th Avenue Express, Manhattan Bridge (skipping DeKalb Avenue), Broadway Express, 63rd Street and SAS.  Does NOT operate late nights.  Can operate weekends to/from Brighton Beach.  

 

This is how I would do it.

[R42N]

I think he meant a 4th Avenue/Broadway express from Kings Highway for the (that would run to 96th/2nd and later 125th/2nd) while the would run Coney Island to Astoria as a 4th Avenue/Broadway Local.

My idea is similar but would operate like this:

operates from Coney Island to Astoria via Sea Beach Local, 4th Avenue Local, Montague Tunnel, Broadway Local and 60th Street Tunnel at all times.

is unchanged (Coney Island to 96/125 via Brighton Local, Manhattan Bridge, Broadway Express, 63rd Street and SAS).

is unchanged (95th Street to 71st-Continental via 4th Avenue Local, Montague Tunnel, Broadway Local, 60th Street and Queens Bouelvard Local, late nights to Whitehall Street).

operates (with new switches past both ends of the station on the express track) from Ocean Parkway on the Brighton Line through Coney Island to 96th/125th Street via Sea Beach Local, 4th Avenue Express, Manhattan Bridge (skipping DeKalb Avenue), Broadway Express, 63rd Street and SAS. Does NOT operate late nights. Can operate weekends to/from Brighton Beach.

This is how I would do it.

Yep, with a few minor adjustments, you solve all problems this way. 4th Avenue gets a second local service to Financial/Lower Mnhthn that it's been deprived of since 2010 when the left, Sea Beach gets an option of Midtown Express or Finacian District Local. doesn't get as overcrowded by B/Q/D/N transfers at 36th and DeKalb, and Astoria riders get something they can agree on.

 

The Weekend might not be best right now, but down the road, that could be a possibility.

Edited August 14, 2017 by R42N

[CenSin]

I think he meant a 4th Avenue/Broadway express from Kings Highway for the (that would run to 96th/2nd and later 125th/2nd) while the would run Coney Island to Astoria as a 4th Avenue/Broadway Local.

 

My idea is similar but would operate like this:

 

operates from Coney Island to Astoria via Sea Beach Local, 4th Avenue Local, Montague Tunnel, Broadway Local and 60th Street Tunnel at all times.

 

is unchanged (Coney Island to 96/125 via Brighton Local, Manhattan Bridge, Broadway Express, 63rd Street and SAS).

 

is unchanged (95th Street to 71st-Continental via 4th Avenue Local, Montague Tunnel, Broadway Local, 60th Street and Queens Bouelvard Local, late nights to Whitehall Street).

 

operates (with new switches past both ends of the station on the express track) from Ocean Parkway on the Brighton Line through Coney Island to 96th/125th Street via Sea Beach Local, 4th Avenue Express, Manhattan Bridge (skipping DeKalb Avenue), Broadway Express, 63rd Street and SAS.  Does NOT operate late nights.  Can operate weekends to/from Brighton Beach.  

 

This is how I would do it.

You know that through trains can’t operate through Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue at the frequencies necessary to support 2 Avenue and Astoria, right?

 

Each pair of tracks is represented by a thick banded line which shows the bandwidth distribution at any point. The thickness of each line is exactly 30 pt, corresponding to the theoretical 30 TPH limit of a pair of tracks. White bands are unused capacity. Colored bands are used by a route. The thicker the band, the higher the TPH.

 

Diagram caveats:

• Actual capacity is lower for any routes that pass through the DeKalb Avenue junction and exchange traffic, contrary to the diagram which assumes 30TPH for all pairs of tracks at all points.
• Terminals with lower capacity are represented by skinnier lines, representing a constraint on the amount of services that can run through it.

[CenSin]

This would be more accurate if someone could provide a definitive table of rush hour TPH for each route along the Manhattan trunks. The colored bands are sized to represent  12 TPH (), 10 TPH, and 6 TPH () along the Manhattan trunks.

[R42N]

 

You know that through trains can’t operate through Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue at the frequencies necessary to support 2 Avenue and Astoria, right?

 

Each pair of tracks is represented by a thick banded line which shows the bandwidth distribution at any point. The thickness of each line is exactly 30 pt, corresponding to the theoretical 30 TPH limit of a pair of tracks. White bands are unused capacity. Colored bands are used by a route. The thicker the band, the higher the TPH.

 

Diagram caveats:

• Actual capacity is lower for any routes that pass through the DeKalb Avenue junction and exchange traffic, contrary to the diagram which assumes 30TPH for all pairs of tracks at all points.
• Terminals with lower capacity are represented by skinnier lines, representing a constraint on the amount of services that can run through it.

 

 

 

Sorry, but I disagree with you. At it’s peak, the runs at 10 TPH out of Stilwell, that number would decrease to 7, and you would add about 4 TPH from Coney Island. The other 1-2 TPH on the new , as previously mentioned would short turn at either 9th Ave or Kings Highway, so the number of / ’s coming out of Stilwell would increase from 10 TPH to 11 TPH, not an impossible figure by any stretch of the imagination, especially when you consider that Ditmars, which is less flexible than Coney Island, has 14+ TPH. 

[CenSin]

Sorry, but I disagree with you. At it’s peak, the runs at 10 TPH out of Stilwell, that number would decrease to 7, and you would add about 4 TPH from Coney Island. The other 1-2 TPH on the new , as previously mentioned would short turn at either 9th Ave or Kings Highway, so the number of / ’s coming out of Stilwell would increase from 10 TPH to 11 TPH, not an impossible figure by any stretch of the imagination, especially when you consider that Ditmars, which is less flexible than Coney Island, has 14+ TPH. 

At least show on a track map how you plan to make this work. There are 4 tracks that the and currently uses to terminate. You plan to add a as a through train. How is this going to go operationally?

[R42N]

At least show on a track map how you plan to make this work. There are 4 tracks that the and currently uses to terminate. You plan to add a as a through train. How is this going to go operationally?

When did I say anything about a through train? They would both terminate on the current platform. The TPH would increase by 1-2. Which is more the manageable. The platform, in comparison, turns more now than the (N)/(W) would in my proposal.

[CenSin]

When did I say anything about a through train? They would both terminate on the current platform. The TPH would increase by 1-2. Which is more the manageable. The platform, in comparison, turns more now than the (N)/(W) would in my proposal.

Okay. That was Wallyhorse’s idea.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

So what is your current plan anyway?

[R42N]

Unfortunately, (or fortunately) none of these ideas are currently being proposed from the MTA, who will probably cherry pick to add a few ’s before doing something drastic like one of these proposals. 

[R42N]

This would be more accurate if someone could provide a definitive table of rush hour TPH for each route along the Manhattan trunks. The colored bands are sized to represent  12 TPH ( ), 10 TPH, and 6 TPH ( ) along the Manhattan trunks.

 

 

Cool graphic, and I’ll be happy to list out the peak rush TPH:

 

Astoria:

Currently - ’s to Coney Island [6-7 TPH] ’s to Whitehall [6 TPH] ~ Total: 12-13 TPH

Proposal - ’s to Coney Island [8 TPH] ’s to Whitehall [4-5 TPH] ~ 12-13 TPH

 

Second Avenue:

 

Currently - ’s to Coney Island via Brighton [10 TPH] ’s to Coney Island [1 TPH] ~ Total: 11 TPH

Proposal - ’s to Coney Island via Brigton [11 TPH], ’s to Brooklyn/Coney [6 TPH] ~ Total: 17 TPH

 

Coney Island Sea Beach:

 

Currently - (N)/ Rush(W)’s to Astoria & Signed ’s to 96 [11 TPH] ~ Total: 11 TPH

Proposal - ’s to Astoria [8 TPH] & ’s to Second Avenue [4 TPH] ~ Total: 11-12 TPH

 

Ninth Avenue or Kings Highway:

 

Currently - N/A

Proposal - ’s to Second Avenue [2 TPH]

 

Whitehall Street:

 

Currently - ’s to Astoria: [6 TPH]

Proposal - ’s to Astoria: [4-5 TPH]

 

So, to recap, Sea Beach service increases from 11 TPH to 14 TPH, DeKalb bottleneck decreases, which allows ’s to increase from 10 TPH to 11 TPH, Astoria stays at it’s max 12-13 TPH, and Second Avenue increases from 11 to 17 TPH, a 35% increase in TPH, which is an good figure. 

[RR503]

Unfortunately, (or fortunately) none of these ideas are currently being proposed from the MTA, who will probably cherry pick to add a few ’s before doing something drastic like one of these proposals. 

 

I wouldn't be so sure...

[Wallyhorse]

 

You know that through trains can’t operate through Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue at the frequencies necessary to support 2 Avenue and Astoria, right?

 

Each pair of tracks is represented by a thick banded line which shows the bandwidth distribution at any point. The thickness of each line is exactly 30 pt, corresponding to the theoretical 30 TPH limit of a pair of tracks. White bands are unused capacity. Colored bands are used by a route. The thicker the band, the higher the TPH.

 

Diagram caveats:

• Actual capacity is lower for any routes that pass through the DeKalb Avenue junction and exchange traffic, contrary to the diagram which assumes 30TPH for all pairs of tracks at all points.
• Terminals with lower capacity are represented by skinnier lines, representing a constraint on the amount of services that can run through it.

 

The idea of the through service is simply so you don't have a ton of trains terminating at Coney Island.  You have presently mostly unused tracks at Ocean Parkway you can use as a terminal for the , which in this case would be a supplement to the along Sea Beach AND the 4th Avenue Express as the does presently while operating as the Sea Beach local.  It would be done where trains would terminate on the track going back to Manhattan at Stilwell so trains can continue to Ocean Parkway, where those trains would terminate.  It also in this setup would be where if two (N)'s in a row came into Stillwell and one has not left yet, the second continues to Ocean Parkway and starts from there when needed.

[R42N]

I wouldn't be so sure...

 

 

Really? I’m surprised. I’ve heard that they are planning on running an or two, but isn’t that it? 

The idea of the through service is simply so you don't have a ton of trains terminating at Coney Island.  You have presently mostly unused tracks at Ocean Parkway you can use as a terminal for the , which in this case would be a supplement to the along Sea Beach AND the 4th Avenue Express as the does presently while operating as the Sea Beach local.  It would be done where trains would terminate on the track going back to Manhattan at Stilwell so trains can continue to Ocean Parkway, where those trains would terminate.  It also in this setup would be where if two (N)'s in a row came into Stillwell and one has not left yet, the second continues to Ocean Parkway and starts from there when needed.

 

If I understand this correctly, you want to turn those 2 extra ’s that I’m proposing to short turn at Kings Hwy at Ocean Parkway. 

 

My only problem with that is the merging issues you’d have north and south of the Aquarium station. Not to mention the wait times if both platforms at Stilwell are utilized. 

 

I think you could short-turn one at Kings Highway and the other one at 86st. That way, you are not really fumigating, as most passengers would have already been off. 

[BreeddekalbL]

What's this i hear they plan on running some  's via 2nd ave

Edited August 15, 2017 by BreeddekalbL

[Wallyhorse]

Really? I’m surprised. I’ve heard that they are planning on running an or two, but isn’t that it? 

 

If I understand this correctly, you want to turn those 2 extra ’s that I’m proposing to short turn at Kings Hwy at Ocean Parkway. 

 

My only problem with that is the merging issues you’d have north and south of the Aquarium station. Not to mention the wait times if both platforms at Stilwell are utilized. 

 

I think you could short-turn one at Kings Highway and the other one at 86st. That way, you are not really fumigating, as most passengers would have already been off. 

In my setup, ALL trains would terminate at Ocean Parkway (using new switches that would be installed north and south of the station) on the Brighton Line (you can go through to the Brighton line via Coney Island from either West End or Sea Beach) on weekdays and more likely Brighton Beach on weekends.  This makes it so in most cases, the can terminate at Coney Island on the Sea Beach-Manhattan bound track while the continues to Ocean Parkway where it terminates, with the occasional continuing to Ocean Parkway when necessary. 

[Around the Horn]

What's this i hear they plan on running some  's via 2nd ave

 

It's most likely going to happen in the fall. The (and those few trains) are proving to not be enough for SAS, so they're trying to add as many trippers as possible.

In my setup, ALL trains would terminate at Ocean Parkway (using new switches that would be installed north and south of the station) on the Brighton Line (you can go through to the Brighton line via Coney Island from either West End or Sea Beach) on weekdays and more likely Brighton Beach on weekends.  This makes it so in most cases, the can terminate at Coney Island on the Sea Beach-Manhattan bound track while the continues to Ocean Parkway where it terminates, with the occasional continuing to Ocean Parkway when necessary. 

Uh, no you can't. West End is a stub.

[HenryB]

What's this i hear they plan on running some  's via 2nd ave

 

 

I worry that will create more mess between 34st and 57st.....

[HenryB]

 If those   's ran to 96 St-2 Av, I don't think it can merge at 57 St due to the age of signals. It would have to merge at 42 St-Times Sq, and it can cause delays because the  has to cross to local, and  to the express, essentially having to criss-cross in front of each other.

 

-  : to 96 St

 

 

 

I am not sure, because I took a 96st bound  last week and it merged right before 57st from the local to express track.

Edited August 15, 2017 by HhwyB