Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[R42N]

So, putting those mega-proposals to the side. What's the most likely option?

 

I don't think Whitehall can turn any more trains than it can right now, and Astoria isn't going to budge about TPH. You can't add any service until you take the off the Manhathan Bridge to de-congest DeKalb.

 

All I know is there is no way that the drastic change that we've been proposing will take place this fall. People will slam the MTA for miscalculating and the added confusion.

 

Bay Ridge is a suitable option for service , but isn't that too much switching?

[Lawrence St]

Or have those trains operate via Bridge or Broadway Express.

[HenryB]

Or have those trains operate via Bridge or Broadway Express.

 

 

lol then i guess they have to name those north bound to " via Bay Ridge", just like those " via Sea Beach"

Edited August 15, 2017 by HhwyB

[CenSin]

the can terminate at Coney Island on the Sea Beach-Manhattan bound track while the continues to Ocean Parkway where it terminates

Operationally, that is a bad idea. Have a look at the track configuration around Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue. If you still need an explanation after looking at it…

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Astoria

Proposal - ’s to Coney Island [8 TPH] ’s to Whitehall [4-5 TPH] ~ 12-13 TPH

to South Ferry (6 TPH) or 9 Avenue (6 TPH)

 

Astoria gets 12 TPH total. I’ve been told that Astoria can turn only 12 TPH, although I don’t know if that is actually the case. An MTA employee should weigh in.

 

See Coney Island via Sea Beach for reason.

 

takes over (gets extended) in Brooklyn at night running all local from Astoria to Coney Island (the same way that the gets extended to cover for the ).

 

125 Street

Proposal - ’s to Coney Island via Brigton [11 TPH], ’s to Brooklyn/Coney [6 TPH] ~ Total: 17 TPH

to Coney Island (10 TPH)

to Coney Island (10 TPH)

 

125 Street gets 20 TPH total.

 

Coney Island via Sea Beach

Proposal - ’s to Astoria [8 TPH] & ’s to Second Avenue [4 TPH] ~ Total: 11-12 TPH

to 125 Street (10 TPH)

 

Sea Beach gets 10 TPH of express service.

 

4 TPH express service along Sea Beach is not acceptable, especially since the Sea Beach tracks feed directly into the 4 Avenue express tracks. Provisioning 8 TPH for less-popular local service is a mismatch between ridership demand and service provided.

 

I also have my doubts that Coney Island can turn more than 12 TPH given the distance between the platform at the switches. This is true for both Sea Beach and Brighton. Jams are common during rush hour with trains back-to-back from West 8 Street to Brighton Beach along the Sheepshead Bay and from 86 Street to Bay Parkway along the Sea Beach Line.

 

takes over (gets extended) in Brooklyn at night running all local from Coney Island to Astoria.

 

Coney Island via Brighton

to 125 Street (10 TPH)

 

Brighton gets 10 TPH of local service and 10 TPH of express service ( ).

 

9 Avenue

Proposal - ’s to Second Avenue [2 TPH]

to Astoria (6 TPH)

 

The 9 Avenue station incidentally gets 6 TPH of local service and 10 TPH of express service ( ) to 36 Street.

 

South Ferry

Proposal - ’s to Astoria: [4-5 TPH]

to Astoria (6 TPH)

 

The South Ferry station gets 22 TPH of local service to Lexington Avenue/59 Street.

 

Summary

• Sea Beach and Brighton retains its current service frequency with the benefit of not having the bottleneck in Midtown Manhattan.
• West End’s 9 Avenue gets additional service, although it is only there to take advantage of its closeness to Manhattan and its ability to short-turn trains without clogging up traffic.
• Astoria keeps its 12 TPH sans bottleneck in Midtown Manhattan.
• 125 Street gets the necessary 19 TPH (plus 1 TPH for a round number).

[Wallyhorse]

It's most likely going to happen in the fall. The (and those few trains) are proving to not be enough for SAS, so they're trying to add as many trippers as possible.

Uh, no you can't. West End is a stub.

I believe if you cross over you can, but this would be through from the Sea Beach tracks anyway, so the part about West End is a moot one. 

[Wallyhorse]

 

Operationally, that is a bad idea. Have a look at the track configuration around Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue. If you still need an explanation after looking at it…

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Astoria

to South Ferry (6 TPH) or 9 Avenue (6 TPH)

 

Astoria gets 12 TPH total. I’ve been told that Astoria can turn only 12 TPH, although I don’t know if that is actually the case. An MTA employee should weigh in.

 

See Coney Island via Sea Beach for reason.

 

takes over (gets extended) in Brooklyn at night running all local from Astoria to Coney Island (the same way that the gets extended to cover for the ).

 

125 Street

to Coney Island (10 TPH)

to Coney Island (10 TPH)

 

125 Street gets 20 TPH total.

 

Coney Island via Sea Beach

to 125 Street (10 TPH)

 

Sea Beach gets 10 TPH of express service.

 

4 TPH express service along Sea Beach is not acceptable, especially since the Sea Beach tracks feed directly into the 4 Avenue express tracks. Provisioning 8 TPH for less-popular local service is a mismatch between ridership demand and service provided.

 

I also have my doubts that Coney Island can turn more than 12 TPH given the distance between the platform at the switches. This is true for both Sea Beach and Brighton. Jams are common during rush hour with trains back-to-back from West 8 Street to Brighton Beach along the Sheepshead Bay and from 86 Street to Bay Parkway along the Sea Beach Line.

 

takes over (gets extended) in Brooklyn at night running all local from Coney Island to Astoria.

 

Coney Island via Brighton

to 125 Street (10 TPH)

 

Brighton gets 10 TPH of local service and 10 TPH of express service ( ).

 

9 Avenue

to Astoria (6 TPH)

 

The 9 Avenue station incidentally gets 6 TPH of local service and 10 TPH of express service ( ) to 36 Street.

 

South Ferry

to Astoria (6 TPH)

 

The South Ferry station gets 22 TPH of local service to Lexington Avenue/59 Street.

 

Summary

• Sea Beach and Brighton retains its current service frequency with the benefit of not having the bottleneck in Midtown Manhattan.
• West End’s 9 Avenue gets additional service, although it is only there to take advantage of its closeness to Manhattan and its ability to short-turn trains without clogging up traffic.
• Astoria keeps its 12 TPH sans bottleneck in Midtown Manhattan.
• 125 Street gets the necessary 19 TPH (plus 1 TPH for a round number).

 

What you said about Coney Island is why I would install new switches at Ocean Parkway so the can continue through Coney Island and run to Ocean Parkway to terminate.  How this could be done:

 

trains from Manhattan terminate on the track next to the innermost track (to the yard).

trains from Manhattan terminate on the track next to the where the would.

 

trains continuing to Ocean Parkway would come in on the outer track and then continue to Ocean Parkway, coming from Ocean Parkway to Sea Beach, they would come in on the innermost track to the of the eight tracks there (the stub tracks are the two oiutermost tracks for this purpose.

[checkmatechamp13]

lol then i guess they have to name those north bound to " via Bay Ridge", just like those " via Sea Beach"

 

Technically, via 4th Avenue/Montague (a train coming from Bay Ridge can still cross over to the 4th Avenue Express and go over the bridge, whereas these trains would likely be running the regular route to 57th). But yeah I'm still SMH at that designation.

 

As a general rule, I'd say it's overkill to put 3 services on the line. I would personally just keep running more trains up there if necessary and give Astoria the equivalent amount of service in return. Worse comes to worse, if it's necessary that all trains go up there, the still serves the same stops in Manhattan that the does, and for those in a hurry, there will likely be an express at 57th or 34th that they can transfer to (same thing for those going to the Atlantic/Barclays area) 

[CenSin]

Technically, via 4th Avenue/Montague (a train coming from Bay Ridge can still cross over to the 4th Avenue Express and go over the bridge, whereas these trains would likely be running the regular route to 57th). But yeah I'm still SMH at that designation.

 

As a general rule, I'd say it's overkill to put 3 services on the line. I would personally just keep running more trains up there if necessary and give Astoria the equivalent amount of service in return. Worse comes to worse, if it's necessary that all trains go up there, the still serves the same stops in Manhattan that the does, and for those in a hurry, there will likely be an express at 57th or 34th that they can transfer to (same thing for those going to the Atlantic/Barclays area) 

At 19 TPH, a Broadway express will come in every 189~190 seconds. The average wait time would be 95 seconds. In the scenario, the straphanger’s best bet would be to stay on the local if there is no express train within 2 minutes. An express train takes 10~11 minutes to make the trip between Canal Street and 57 Street–7 Avenue (skipping 49 Street). A local train takes 13 minutes.

Edited August 16, 2017 by CenSin

[HenryB]

by the way...is lower level of City Hall usable as terminal? Or for some reasons it couldn't be opened to public at all 

[CenSin]

by the way...is lower level of City Hall usable as terminal? Or for some reasons it couldn't be opened to public at all 

If it could be converted somehow, the Astoria trains could terminate there instead of 9 Avenue after 2 Avenue is extended to 125 Street. A lot less trains need to be in circulation to maintain 12 TPH in Astoria, and we know that the MTA is not rife with train sets and yard space.

[R42N]

As someone that doesn’t know how this works, can someone weigh in with percentage possibilities of what change will happen by the end of the year?

 

For me, it’s:
 

50%: Stick with Status Quo

25%: Add one more or as an interim fix

25%: Drastic re-design with Second 4th Ave Lcl/One Astoria Service

[Around the Horn]

As someone that doesn’t know how this works, can someone weigh in with percentage possibilities of what change will happen by the end of the year?

 

For me, it’s:

 

50%: Stick with Status Quo

25%: Add one more or as an interim fix

25%: Drastic re-design with Second 4th Ave Lcl/One Astoria Service

Oh, by the end of the year? No way... Next year or 2019? Plausible.

[R42N]

Oh, by the end of the year? No way... Next year or 2019? Plausible.

 

 

Ok, that’s what I thought, so you’re betting they might add an or so, but nothing else until 2018-2019? Sounds right....

[CenSin]

As someone that doesn’t know how this works, can someone weigh in with percentage possibilities of what change will happen by the end of the year?

 

For me, it’s:

 

50%: Stick with Status Quo

25%: Add one more or as an interim fix

25%: Drastic re-design with Second 4th Ave Lcl/One Astoria Service

There is almost no chance they will do a full overhaul of the Broadway services (no matter what the plan). That is going to be for phase 2 of 2 Avenue where the necessary service increase will force their hand. The estimated service needed for Phase 1 was only 14 TPH.

Edited August 16, 2017 by CenSin

[Wallyhorse]

Wouldn't your proposed  have to be held at W 8 St(northbound) or Gravesend-86 St(southbound) because wouldn't the   need to fumigate at Coney Island on the Sea Beach tracks? OR would it fumigate on the West End platform? And wouldn't the  be held too?

 

- to 96 St 

Not the way I would do it (as noted upthread), and if it happened two trains in a row came into Coney Island on Sea Beach, the second could continue to Ocean Parkway and terminate there.

[CenSin]

Not the way I would do it (as noted upthread), and if it happened two trains in a row came into Coney Island on Sea Beach, the second could continue to Ocean Parkway and terminate there.

There are a multitude of worst case scenarios—all of which are likely under rush hour conditions and midday. Here is one obvious one:

1. A stream of Sea Beach trains line up before Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue.
   • There is an train on track 1 (not due to leave for another 3 minutes), and a train on track 3 (also not due to leave for another 3 minutes). Tracks 2 and 4 are clear.
   • An train is approaching Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue just passing by the yard leads.
   • A train is following that train close behind.
   • Another train is at 86 Street.
   • A train is following that train at Avenue U.
2. A stream of Brighton trains line up before Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue.
   • A train is at West 8 Street.
   • Another train is at Ocean Parkway with a train on the Manhattan-bound express track (due to leave 1 minute ago, but is late). On the Coney Island-bound express track is a waiting for its turn to head to the yard from a hard day at work.
   • Another train is at Brighton Beach. Both express tracks have trains, neither due to leave for another 2 minutes.

Let’s make this a what-if mini-series. You are the dispatcher, Wallyhorse. Keep the traffic moving; direct each train through specific tracks at specific times.

Edited August 16, 2017 by CenSin

[Wallyhorse]

There are a multitude of worst case scenarios—all of which are likely under rush hour conditions and midday. Here is one obvious one:

1. A stream of Sea Beach trains line up before Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue.
   • There is an N train on track 1 (not due to leave for another 3 minutes), and a train on track 3 (also not due to leave for another 3 minutes). Tracks 2 and 4 are clear.
   • An train is approaching Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue just passing by the yard leads.
   • A train is following that train close behind.
   • Another train is at 86 Street.
   • A train is following that train at Avenue U.
2. A stream of Brighton trains line up before Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue.
   • A train is at West 8 Street.
   • Another train is at Ocean Parkway with a train on the Manhattan-bound express track (due to leave 1 minute ago, but is late). On the Coney Island-bound express track is a waiting for its turn to head to the yard from a hard day at work.
   • Another train is at Brighton Beach. Both express tracks have trains, neither due to leave for another 2 minutes.

Let’s make this a what-if mini-series. You are the dispatcher, Wallyhorse. Keep the traffic moving; direct each train through specific tracks at specific times.

The to Coney Island yard will have to wait for the trains in service to go first and goes through as quickly as possible.

 

Tracks 1 & 4 would be the through tracks for the .  2 & 3 would be the terminal tracks.

 

The since it's a through train goes ahead of the at Ocean Parkway and if necessary goes early in order to keep the flow of traffic through.

 

The first is quickly fumagated and turned right around with the (W)s fast approaching so the second can ride through.

 

From the other direction:

 

The first train on Track 2 (not track 1) leaves early if necessary to clear space for the second train.

 

The second train comes in as soon as the first one clears and is turned around as quickly as possible.

 

The first train continues unabated for Ocean Parkway but quickly is turned as well to keep the flow of traffic in order.

 

The third train if necessary continues to Ocean Parkway if the second can't be cleared fast enough and is turn is turned around as fast as possible.

 

The second train continues normal as if procedures are followed it should be able to get to Ocean Parkway without being backed up.

 

Not easy, but that's why I put in the provisions that when needed the can go to Ocean Parkway to terminate in this. 

Edited August 16, 2017 by Wallyhorse

[LGA Link N Train]

Let me add my two cents and add a few facts. You can't hold a grudge with the MTA for halting SAS in the 40s and 70's. During the 70's the city was in a financial hole. In the 40s, everything went to the War effort (WWII). Now you actually don't need service north of 96th st to help the Lex. Have you SEEN the stations from 96th down on the 6 alone? PACKED. These aren't Bx riders. They are UES riders! SAS up to 96th alone WILL help the Lex. @Wallyhorse: stop. Just stop. Please stop. For the love of everything pure and decent I beg of you please stop. I understand stand your wholwe "future views" but no one has any idea. Of ridership patterns 30-40 years down the road. And please leave Rockaway out of it. I'm from Rockaway. We don't need a 5/3 split between Mott and 116th. We need a faster trip to manhattan (and a little more frequency) and we could use a N/S queens x-town. And as far as the idea of future T service to brooklyn, the only thing I feel that ruins the concept is the repeated notion to use the museum. Stop it. It will never be done. It will never happen. To use What's now a museum? Seriously? A new station a block north or south in a new tunnel that would connect to an existing one (doesn't have to be Fulton st) I can suT

The only fast and effective plan to put Court St (NY Transit Museum) into normal train service is to build a connection from Montague Street where the over night and rush hour trains run underneath to Court Street where the museum is and extend trains to Euclid Avenue due to lack of demand from south Brooklyn. This expansion will make service on the and flexible enough so that trains could run express to Lefferts Boulevard and trains could run a flexible service to Far Rockaway. This service change would be a boon to everyone. As for the Transit Museum, there are a few good spots to relocate it such as the 9 Avenue lower level or using one of the South 4 Street provisions (I think that Utica Avenue on the and lines is a good place.

[LGA Link N Train]

Oh, by the end of the year? No way... Next year or 2019? Plausible.

I don't know why but I feel as if the line would be the best candidate for a second 4 Avenue Local Service

[Around the Horn]

I don't know why but I feel as if the line would be the best candidate for a second 4 Avenue Local Service

You mean the / ? They are one line. You extend one, you extend the other.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Around the Horn

[RR503]

I say no.

 

1. Too long -- Jamaica Center to [somewhere in South BK] all local is quite a trip.

 

2. It adds a merge to a pair of notoriously unreliable lines.

 

3. It doesn't provide useful service. People these days want to go to midtown. ESPECIALLY given that the is literally pointing down the tubes and would give supplementary service without adding merges, I really can't see the argument for this.

[R42N]

You mean the / ? They are one line. You extend one, you extend the other.

 

 

That would also have to wait until the R211’s, as R32’s and R42’s can’t operate in the Montague Tunnel after the Sandy refurbishment. 

 

Also, even if they avoided that by switching fleets around, it would be highly un-likely due to the fact that the Nassau St service just wasn’t popular. 

Edited August 17, 2017 by R42N

[Wallyhorse]

Yeah you need to keep them together or else the    would become two different lines. And yes, there aren't enough cars and 32s and 42s are banned from Montague. 

 

1. I do agree that it would be long, but where in South Brooklyn would the     terminate at? 

2. Yeah, it might just make the  even more unreliable. 

3. Yeah, Lower Manhattan is just not popular with South Brooklyn riders. It's easliy evidenced how deserted the was between Chambers and Bay Parkway. The - on the other hand would transfer riders to Midtown, and would be more popular than an extended    .

- to 96 St  

Reason for responding to an old post from 2014?

- to 96 St

It was someone new who likely saw the entire thread and saw the old response.

 

Anyway, as for a South Brooklyn line via Nassau, I stick by my prior proposal to have the and be split up with Chambers as the terminal for both (save for a few rush hour 's to Broad) with the becoming its own line running the old   route to 95th (basically the "Bankers Special" becoming a 24/7 route that would supplement the on 4th Avenue). 

[Wallyhorse]

We should really get back on topic with the SAS or else this thread will become a "What can we supplement the  train with?" thread...   

 

-  to 96 St

Yeah, but a lot of this actually was relevant to the SAS since the Broadway Line has direct ties to the SAS, like it or not.  

[LGA Link N Train]

You mean the / ? They are one line. You extend one, you extend the other.

Yeah, but I want to make the and 2 seperate lines and there are multiple ways you can do that