Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 7/20/2021 at 10:55 PM, Amiri the subway guy said:

Just build phase 4 with provision for a new tunnel to Fulton st why it that so complicated

That is the plan, at least according to the MTA’s online materials related to SAS. It’s not a very good plan because there is only one service south of the 63rd St tunnel junction (the ) and there are very few connections between the SAS and the intersecting lines. However, it is only implied that the  would continue into Brooklyn via a new tunnel leading to the Fulton St Subway. 
 

But I thought we were discussing how to connect the SAS to the lines that stop at Fulton Street, Manhattan.

 

20 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

To be quite clear, the tail tracks for the tunnel for Phase IV will reach to under the South Ferry building. There wouldn't be additional stations between Hanover and Fulton, mostly because you need to get a certain depth to clear the river. So there's nothing really to make fancy.

Would be great if there were a station there to allow for good transfers to the . The current plan sort of has the  off in a corner, like the  below 14th.

Edited July 22, 2021 by T to Dyre Avenue

[bobtehpanda]

58 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Would be great if there were a station there to allow for good transfers to the . The current plan sort of has the  off in a corner, like the  below 14th.

I imagine the MTA wants nothing to do with building a station pretty much at the water line. Particularly when it would be deeper than New SF, which already flooded once.

[Wallyhorse]

On 7/20/2021 at 11:14 AM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Water is straighter, but with far fewer transfers than Nassau. I’ve long wondered if it’s viable to have some sort of “compromise” alignment that uses the Water alignment down to Chatham Square, then turns onto Park Row and merges into the Nassau Line between Chambers and Fulton, so you can still have the transfers between the lines at Fulton, rather than passing under all of them with no transfers. Granted, you’d still have to lengthen Fulton and Broad. Lengthening Fulton would definitely not be an easy task.

You’d still have to lengthen the platforms on the Manhattan side, too. Though I have a sinking feeling, doing that at Fulton would be especially difficult.

I believe Fulton can as it is handle nine-car trains as it used to handle eight-car trains of 67' BMT Standards.  Most of these stations likely only have to be lengthened about 65 feet or so to handle 10-car trains.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

8 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

I imagine the MTA wants nothing to do with building a station pretty much at the water line. Particularly when it would be deeper than New SF, which already flooded once.

Then, in light of said flooding, perhaps the MTA should consider a different Phase 4 alignment, one that’s not so far to the east and with so few transfers. What’s the remedy, out-of-system transfers? Please. For a multi-billion dollar project, I think we can do much better than that. 

7 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

I believe Fulton can as it is handle nine-car trains as it used to handle eight-car trains of 67' BMT Standards.  Most of these stations likely only have to be lengthened about 65 feet or so to handle 10-car trains.

Broad Street’s platforms appear to have quite a bit of space too. For 65 extra feet, it might not necessarily be a dealbreaker.

@mrsman Personally, I’d like to tie SAS in between Canal and Chambers  so there’s a connection to the  and so that it facilitates transfers between the  and T/V. It wouldn’t be right to have to terminate the  at Chambers without even a way to make a transfer continue south to Fulton and Broad.

Edited July 22, 2021 by T to Dyre Avenue

[mrsman]

3 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Then, in light of said flooding, perhaps the MTA should consider a different Phase 4 alignment, one that’s not so far to the east and with so few transfers. What’s the remedy, out-of-system transfers? Please. For a multi-billion dollar project, I think we can do much better than that. 

Broad Street’s platforms appear to have quite a bit of space too. For 65 extra feet, it might not necessarily be a dealbreaker.

@mrsman Personally, I’d like to tie SAS in between Canal and Chambers  so there’s a connection to the  and so that it facilitates transfers between the  and T/V. It wouldn’t be right to have to terminate the  at Chambers without even a way to make a transfer continue south to Fulton and Broad.

A dream of mine for the SAS, as well as part and parcel to a wider deinterlined system, would be a giant station complex in northeast Midtown.  Call it Bloomingdale Square or somehting appropriate for the neighborhood.  It would link the 59th St station of  , the Lex station on the 60th street line [current ] where 60th is the link from Astoria (and only Astoria) to the Broadway local, the Lex station on the 63rd street line [current ] but in my system 63rd is the link for most of the QBL local service to the 6th Ave local, and a 57th street station on the 2nd Ave line for SAS services.  Four separate station platforms, all linked by free transfers.  It may be a bit of a walk from SAS to the 63rd street line, though.

I think given the way the tracks turn from 2nd to 63rd, such a thing may not be possible.  I guess we'd still be stuck with  and  services on the Upper SAS that join in with  .  Then the V train would be a Queens-2nd Ave service to fill in the gaps.  A lot of deinterlining, even in other parts of the system, would no longer be viable, unfortunately.

It could mean EF along 53rd as the QBL expresses and MV along 63rd as the QBL locals with perhpas the addition of the G train on the QBL local to provide connections to Long Island City.

Anyway, once you are south of 57th, there aren't many feasible connections to trunk lines that are possible, and each provide somewhat of a walk.   at 53d/Lex, 4567 at 42nd, L at 14th.  You really do need the Lower Manhattan transfers to make this work OK, because there are not that many in Midtown.

I think that I would also prefer tying in north of Chambers, to provide direct SAS transfers to all that is over there.  If not feasible, I don't see it as being a critical failure since I would provide a transfer between Bowery  and Grand  V.  The JZ riders will still have the way to transfer to the Financial District, they just have to do it at Bowery, not Chambers.  Chambers would still be better as it would allow  riders to use SAS if  an  are too busy.

 

[Wallyhorse]

1 hour ago, mrsman said:

A dream of mine for the SAS, as well as part and parcel to a wider deinterlined system, would be a giant station complex in northeast Midtown.  Call it Bloomingdale Square or somehting appropriate for the neighborhood.  It would link the 59th St station of  , the Lex station on the 60th street line [current ] where 60th is the link from Astoria (and only Astoria) to the Broadway local, the Lex station on the 63rd street line [current ] but in my system 63rd is the link for most of the QBL local service to the 6th Ave local, and a 57th street station on the 2nd Ave line for SAS services.  Four separate station platforms, all linked by free transfers.  It may be a bit of a walk from SAS to the 63rd street line, though.

I think given the way the tracks turn from 2nd to 63rd, such a thing may not be possible.  I guess we'd still be stuck with  and  services on the Upper SAS that join in with  .  Then the V train would be a Queens-2nd Ave service to fill in the gaps.  A lot of deinterlining, even in other parts of the system, would no longer be viable, unfortunately.

It could mean EF along 53rd as the QBL expresses and MV along 63rd as the QBL locals with perhpas the addition of the G train on the QBL local to provide connections to Long Island City.

Anyway, once you are south of 57th, there aren't many feasible connections to trunk lines that are possible, and each provide somewhat of a walk.   at 53d/Lex, 4567 at 42nd, L at 14th.  You really do need the Lower Manhattan transfers to make this work OK, because there are not that many in Midtown.

I think that I would also prefer tying in north of Chambers, to provide direct SAS transfers to all that is over there.  If not feasible, I don't see it as being a critical failure since I would provide a transfer between Bowery  and Grand  V.  The JZ riders will still have the way to transfer to the Financial District, they just have to do it at Bowery, not Chambers.  Chambers would still be better as it would allow  riders to use SAS if  an  are too busy.

I believe the planned station on the SAS is 55th Street to clear a number of things north of there, plus that station is supposed to have transfers to the and , so conceivably you can get off at the 55th Street station on the SAS to via the downtown  platform 50th and Lexington without going outside. 

One thing I did note in my idea for a rebuilt 3rd Avenue EL would be where the biggest station on that line would be 60th-63rd Streets.  It would be built that way to allow transfers to the and  on the 60th Street end and the and  on the 63rd Street end.  

If the SAS were connected to Nassau, I'd also want to do it where preferably it stops at both The Bowery and Canal Street with in both cases the as-present abandoned Northbound tracks reopened with it done where the SAS trains would use the "local" tracks as in that scenario the  would continue south past Chambers and the Nassau Street trains would use the "express" tracks in those stations as the /  would terminate at Chambers.  I would also provide an option where the / or  can go to the SAS from Essex, either for re-routes or if you want to for example make the as full-time SAS line via Broadway-Brooklyn that can be done. 

[bobtehpanda]

12 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Then, in light of said flooding, perhaps the MTA should consider a different Phase 4 alignment, one that’s not so far to the east and with so few transfers. What’s the remedy, out-of-system transfers? Please. For a multi-billion dollar project, I think we can do much better than that. 

The entire point of going that far east is that there is no subway service there at all.

To be honest, this is a lot of hemming and hawing when pretty much all the stations are slated to have passageways. From Water/Fulton to Fulton Center is one avenue block.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

13 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

The entire point of going that far east is that there is no subway service there at all.

To be honest, this is a lot of hemming and hawing when pretty much all the stations are slated to have passageways. From Water/Fulton to Fulton Center is one avenue block.

There is also no subway service in Alphabet City or the far LES, yet there’s no plan to run the SAS that far to the east. And those are heavily populated areas. I have no problem with the part of Phase 4 as far down as Chatham Square, because that will be convenient for lots of people. But south of there, running too far to the east with long, inconvenient connections at Seaport (or possibly no connection; they haven’t decided) to the multiple lines that will pass over or under the SAS is what doesn’t sit well with me. It needs to be re-evaluated.

It’s more than one avenue block. I’ve walked it many times. And that only gets you to the  at William St. It will take longer than that to reach the other lines at Fulton. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by T to Dyre Avenue

[bobtehpanda]

16 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

There is also no subway service in Alphabet City or the far LES, yet there’s no plan to run the SAS that far to the east. And those are heavily populated areas. I have no problem with the part of Phase 4 as far down as Chatham Square, because that will be convenient for lots of people. But south of there, running too far to the east with long, inconvenient connections at Seaport (or possibly no connection; they haven’t decided) to the multiple lines that will pass over or under the SAS is what doesn’t sit well with me. It needs to be re-evaluated.

It’s more than one avenue block. I’ve walked it many times. And that only gets you to the  at William St. It will take longer than that to reach the other lines at Fulton. 

Which just makes it similar to PABT - Times Square, a very busy connection. Also, of the four lines at Fulton (Eighth, Seventh, Nassau, Lex) - Lex riders are not likely to move their butts, Nassau riders would probably be better served making a connection between Grand and Bowery, and it would be pretty difficult to beat cross-platform transfers for Seventh/Lex in Brooklyn. And no one has addressed the fact that routing Second Avenue through Nassau/Fulton means severing Nassau trains from that connection; Nassau's transfer situations are far worse, given that it has no connections to most lines outside of Fulton St instead of inconvenient ones.

The entire reason Second Avenue is the routing and not Third or Fifth is because the east side is underserved. The problem with Alphabet City/LES is that it's impossible to serve without slowing down everyone. Personally, I think that now the road is more or less dedicated to buses that the M14 would be a great conversion candidate to a light rail/streetcar.

----

Personally, if we ever end up building a Phase III or IV, I would like to see it as a line from Broadway (Queens) to 79th St and then under Third, since I think most capacity on 63rd will more or less be spoken for in a situation I would consider "ideal."

[bobtehpanda]

Picture to help explain what would be ideal for me:

Note: only major transfers are marked because I'm lazy.

[Amiri the subway guy]

I have perfected my 2nd Avenue plan here’s my master plan 

So as we all know when phase 3 and 4 is open the T train will run all the way down to Hanover Square. But the problem with the 2nd Avenue line is the lack of express tracks, the lack of connections to other boroughs, and the fact that doesn’t have anywhere to be rerouted in case of emergencies. I feel when phase 2 opens the MTA will need to redraw the phase 3 and 4 (example connections to The Bronx Queens and Brooklyn and express tracks) 

Here some proposals I list 

The connection to Bronx, so for the Bronx connection build a new 4 track line across 3rd Avenue and Webster Avenue a very hugely populated place in the Bronx. This would be used for the T and V trains. The T train would be local 24/7 and the V train would be express operating weekdays only the express would than lower in 143rd st. The tunnel to Manhattan would be split like this 

The upper local level would go to Manhattan via Lincoln Avenue and the lower express level would go to Manhattan vis a tunnel underneath the 3rd Avenue bridge 

How to build express tracks 

Well with phase 1 build the way it is the express tracks would need to be build underneath but here’s a bonus way we can do this first build the express tracks with connections to 125th street the V train would be the express, Again weekdays only since there won’t really a demand for full time express in East Harlem. 

It would skip 116th 106th 96th and 86th streets and it would then head down to 2nd Avenue at 81st street than 72nd street would be build with connections to the lower level Yes 72nd street would be an express stop. You can said I’m proposing to make 2nd Avenue The east side version of Central Park west. 

For phase 2 the Q train would branch out running down via a 125th street crosstown line where it would continue to Broadway 125th street. And the Q and T could be swap depending on train length and/or demand. 

Now for queens so I propose building a new Northern Blvd line and creating a new 2nd Avenue line the K train.This new queens line would serve northern blvd which would reduce crowding on the 7 train. The northern blvd would be stop at 21st street queensbridge transferring to the F train and than the K train would run down a new tunnel down 62nd street than connecting to the lower level express tracks of 2nd Avenue line. 

Reasons for it connected to 21st street it would allow for the K train to be rerouted in case of emergencies switch places with one of the queens blvd lines if ridership demands it.

Also 60th street tunnel would have connections to the upper local level of 2nd Avenue line reasons it would allow for an emergency reroute of a Broadway line and for the reroute of the W train via 2nd Avenue Local if ridership demands it. 

Now at 57th street the express rise up and 2nd Avenue would look like the traditional 4 track lines. So the K V is Express and the T is Local. 

So the K and V would skip 48th 34th 23rd 8th and Houston streets

Now you may be wondering what to do for Brooklyn

 

instead of reworking all of Chrystie street (cause as I said earlier that does far more harm than good) 

On Grand Street the K train would head down to a new line via a new tunnel in Williamsburg running down grand street Morgan Avenue and Wilson Avenue This new Williamsburg Bushwick would reduce crowding on the L and M trains

The V train would be connected to the Culver line along side the F and G train. The V train would be the Express train while the F and G trains remain local. It would run up to church ave. And if the demand is high enough culver from 18th Avenue and kings Highway would be converted to 4 tracks to allow for a reliable express service on culver line. 

And the phase 4 would be build and it would have provisions for a new tunnel running down to Fulton street where the T train could be extended to Euclid Avenue maybe Hanover Square could have 4 tracks with the center tracks use for terminating trains and the outer tracks used to continuing to Brooklyn. This could allow for rerouted trains to run to Brooklyn without causing major delays 

T train run between White Plains Rd Gun Hill Rd Bronx and Hanover Square Manhattan

 3rd Avenue Local 2nd Avenue Local 

V train run between Wiallimsbrigde 210th st Bronx and Kings Highway Brooklyn

3rd Avenue Express 2nd Avenue Express Culver

K train run between Whitestone Expressway 112 st Queens and Wilson Avenue Brooklyn

 
Northern Blvd Local 2nd Avenue Express Williamburg local local

It not fully known how much people will benefit but I’m sure this will make the 2nd Avenue line more effective
 

Post your opinions on my plan and your own recommendations

[Amiri the subway guy]

On 7/23/2021 at 12:37 PM, Amiri the subway guy said:

I have perfected my 2nd Avenue plan here’s my master plan 

So as we all know when phase 3 and 4 is open the T train will run all the way down to Hanover Square. But the problem with the 2nd Avenue line is the lack of express tracks, the lack of connections to other boroughs, and the fact that doesn’t have anywhere to be rerouted in case of emergencies. I feel when phase 2 opens the MTA will need to redraw the phase 3 and 4 (example connections to The Bronx Queens and Brooklyn and express tracks) 

Here some proposals I list 

The connection to Bronx, so for the Bronx connection build a new 4 track line across 3rd Avenue and Webster Avenue a very hugely populated place in the Bronx. This would be used for the T and V trains. The T train would be local 24/7 and the V train would be express operating weekdays only the express would than lower in 143rd st. The tunnel to Manhattan would be split like this 

The upper local level would go to Manhattan via Lincoln Avenue and the lower express level would go to Manhattan vis a tunnel underneath the 3rd Avenue bridge 

How to build express tracks 

Well with phase 1 build the way it is the express tracks would need to be build underneath but here’s a bonus way we can do this first build the express tracks with connections to 125th street the V train would be the express, Again weekdays only since there won’t really a demand for full time express in East Harlem. 

It would skip 116th 106th 96th and 86th streets and it would then head down to 2nd Avenue at 81st street than 72nd street would be build with connections to the lower level Yes 72nd street would be an express stop. You can said I’m proposing to make 2nd Avenue The east side version of Central Park west. 

For phase 2 the Q train would branch out running down via a 125th street crosstown line where it would continue to Broadway 125th street. And the Q and T could be swap depending on train length and/or demand. 

Now for queens so I propose building a new Northern Blvd line and creating a new 2nd Avenue line the K train.This new queens line would serve northern blvd which would reduce crowding on the 7 train. The northern blvd would be stop at 21st street queensbridge transferring to the F train and than the K train would run down a new tunnel down 62nd street than connecting to the lower level express tracks of 2nd Avenue line. 

Reasons for it connected to 21st street it would allow for the K train to be rerouted in case of emergencies switch places with one of the queens blvd lines if ridership demands it.

Also 60th street tunnel would have connections to the upper local level of 2nd Avenue line reasons it would allow for an emergency reroute of a Broadway line and for the reroute of the W train via 2nd Avenue Local if ridership demands it. 

Now at 57th street the express rise up and 2nd Avenue would look like the traditional 4 track lines. So the K V is Express and the T is Local. 

So the K and V would skip 48th 34th 23rd 8th and Houston streets

Now you may be wondering what to do for Brooklyn

 

instead of reworking all of Chrystie street (cause as I said earlier that does far more harm than good) 

On Grand Street the K train would head down to a new line via a new tunnel in Williamsburg running down grand street Morgan Avenue and Wilson Avenue This new Williamsburg Bushwick would reduce crowding on the L and M trains

The V train would be connected to the Culver line along side the F and G train. The V train would be the Express train while the F and G trains remain local. It would run up to church ave. And if the demand is high enough culver from 18th Avenue and kings Highway would be converted to 4 tracks to allow for a reliable express service on culver line. 

And the phase 4 would be build and it would have provisions for a new tunnel running down to Fulton street where the T train could be extended to Euclid Avenue maybe Hanover Square could have 4 tracks with the center tracks use for terminating trains and the outer tracks used to continuing to Brooklyn. This could allow for rerouted trains to run to Brooklyn without causing major delays 

T train run between White Plains Rd Gun Hill Rd Bronx and Hanover Square Manhattan

 3rd Avenue Local 2nd Avenue Local 

V train run between Wiallimsbrigde 210th st Bronx and Kings Highway Brooklyn

3rd Avenue Express 2nd Avenue Express Culver

K train run between Whitestone Expressway 112 st Queens and Wilson Avenue Brooklyn

 
Northern Blvd Local 2nd Avenue Express Williamburg local local

It not fully known how much people will benefit but I’m sure this will make the 2nd Avenue line more effective
 

Post your opinions on my plan and your own recommendations

Here’s a link to the map I made https://metrodreamin.com/view/ejJSdkwzOHltdVZjWldyVjBLY05WQ1BJMW9qMXww

[Wallyhorse]

On 7/23/2021 at 10:37 AM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

There is also no subway service in Alphabet City or the far LES, yet there’s no plan to run the SAS that far to the east. And those are heavily populated areas. I have no problem with the part of Phase 4 as far down as Chatham Square, because that will be convenient for lots of people. But south of there, running too far to the east with long, inconvenient connections at Seaport (or possibly no connection; they haven’t decided) to the multiple lines that will pass over or under the SAS is what doesn’t sit well with me. It needs to be re-evaluated.

It’s more than one avenue block. I’ve walked it many times. And that only gets you to the  at William St. It will take longer than that to reach the other lines at Fulton. 

This is one reason why at 23rd I would consider having the SAS run on 1st Avenue the way the 2nd Avenue EL did.  You could have it on 1st Avenue with an option to have a Culver connection from 1st Avenue/Houston where the SAS have a branch join the Culver line while the SAS continues otherwise down Allen Street to East Broadway and get to Chatam Square that way. 

[ActiveCity]

On 7/21/2021 at 11:15 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

That is the plan, at least according to the MTA’s online materials related to SAS. It’s not a very good plan because there is only one service south of the 63rd St tunnel junction (the ) and there are very few connections between the SAS and the intersecting lines. However, it is only implied that the  would continue into Brooklyn via a new tunnel leading to the Fulton St Subway. 
 

But I thought we were discussing how to connect the SAS to the lines that stop at Fulton Street, Manhattan.

 

Would be great if there were a station there to allow for good transfers to the . The current plan sort of has the  off in a corner, like the  below 14th.

There's actually bell-mouth's located on the F line west of the Roosevelt Island station at 63 St and 1 Avenue on both levels for a planned Second Avenue subway track connection that would connect passengers to Queens from the Financial District, and in Brooklyn.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

2 hours ago, ActiveCity said:

There's actually bell-mouth's located on the F line west of the Roosevelt Island station at 63 St and 1 Avenue on both levels for a planned Second Avenue subway track connection that would connect passengers to Queens from the Financial District, and in Brooklyn.

I know about the bell mouths. I’ve seen them many times from trains in the 63rd St tunnel. But my problem with the MTA’s current four-phase SAS plan is that they have no plans to use them, at least not for an official service (there’s been talk of stabling  trains at Jamaica Yard, which would require them to use the bell mouths, but that’s different). 

16 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

This is one reason why at 23rd I would consider having the SAS run on 1st Avenue the way the 2nd Avenue EL did.  You could have it on 1st Avenue with an option to have a Culver connection from 1st Avenue/Houston where the SAS have a branch join the Culver line while the SAS continues otherwise down Allen Street to East Broadway and get to Chatam Square that way. 

But if it slows down SAS service significantly, then it won’t be very effective at relieving the Lexington Ave line. Also, if the SAS shifts at 23rd over to 1st, then it will be too far away to make an effective transfer to the  at Grand. The proposed Phase 4 alignment is already not in a good location for transfers to other lines. But moving it one avenue block over will make that disadvantage even worse. And having an SAS reverse-branch the  line will kneecap both the  and the SAS service. Those are the pitfalls of reverse-branching.

[Wallyhorse]

6 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I know about the bell mouths. I’ve seen them many times from trains in the 63rd St tunnel. But my problem with the MTA’s current four-phase SAS plan is that they have no plans to use them, at least not for an official service (there’s been talk of stabling  trains at Jamaica Yard, which would require them to use the bell mouths, but that’s different). 

But if it slows down SAS service significantly, then it won’t be very effective at relieving the Lexington Ave line. Also, if the SAS shifts at 23rd over to 1st, then it will be too far away to make an effective transfer to the  at Grand. The proposed Phase 4 alignment is already not in a good location for transfers to other lines. But moving it one avenue block over will make that disadvantage even worse. And having an SAS reverse-branch the  line will kneecap both the  and the SAS service. Those are the pitfalls of reverse-branching.

And yet another reason why eventually, if ALL of the buildings are built AND offices eventually return to pre-pandemic levels, we will need BOTH the full SAS AND a rebuilt 3rd Avenue EL (or 3rd Avenue Subway). 

[ActiveCity]

If the Second Avenue subway were to be extended towards Brooklyn after phase 4, I would go for the Court St station and then run all Second Avenue subway services via Fulton St local, with all Eight Avenue subway services via Fulton St express. If you take a look at this track map, The Y train (Queens Blvd super-express/ 2 Avenue Local/ Fulton St local) would continue onto Pitkin Avenue to terminate at Cross Bay Blvd, while the T train (125 St/ 2 Avenue Local/ Fulton St local) would take over the Liberty Avenue line shortly after departing Euclid Avenue. The best part about this extension is that if it's ever considered, then the A train would be much faster than it is today because of it's direct route towards the Rockaways, while the K train (Grand Concourse express/ 8 Avenue express/ Fulton St express)  would terminate at 105 St for a future extension to Cambria Heights via Linden Blvd. Also, the Lex-125 St stop is wasted potential since you are left with 1 extension into the Bronx rather than 2.

[Amiri the subway guy]

2 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I know about the bell mouths. I’ve seen them many times from trains in the 63rd St tunnel. But my problem with the MTA’s current four-phase SAS plan is that they have no plans to use them, at least not for an official service (there’s been talk of stabling  trains at Jamaica Yard, which would require them to use the bell mouths, but that’s different). 

But if it slows down SAS service significantly, then it won’t be very effective at relieving the Lexington Ave line. Also, if the SAS shifts at 23rd over to 1st, then it will be too far away to make an effective transfer to the  at Grand. The proposed Phase 4 alignment is already not in a good location for transfers to other lines. But moving it one avenue block over will make that disadvantage even worse. And having an SAS reverse-branch the  line will kneecap both the  and the SAS service. Those are the pitfalls of reverse-branching.

 

2 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

And yet another reason why eventually, if ALL of the buildings are built AND offices eventually return to pre-pandemic levels, we will need BOTH the full SAS AND a rebuilt 3rd Avenue EL (or 3rd Avenue Subway). 

I just leave this here https://metrodreamin.com/view/ejJSdkwzOHltdVZjWldyVjBLY05WQ1BJMW9qMXww

[CenSin]

3 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

And yet another reason why eventually, if ALL of the buildings are built AND offices eventually return to pre-pandemic levels, we will need BOTH the full SAS AND a rebuilt 3rd Avenue EL (or 3rd Avenue Subway). 

Sorry to burst your bubble… work-from-home is staying for good. It’s taken a big chunk of the daily commuters away and a good chunk of that is permanent.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 7/25/2021 at 5:00 PM, Wallyhorse said:

And yet another reason why eventually, if ALL of the buildings are built AND offices eventually return to pre-pandemic levels, we will need BOTH the full SAS AND a rebuilt 3rd Avenue EL (or 3rd Avenue Subway). 

The key word there is “if.” Not “all.”

And a rebuilt 3rd Ave el definitely ain’t gonna happen.

On 7/25/2021 at 8:07 PM, CenSin said:

Sorry to burst your bubble… work-from-home is staying for good. It’s taken a big chunk of the daily commuters away and a good chunk of that is permanent.

Agreed. I’d much rather the MTA prioritize a full length SAS, complete with extensions to The Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens, maybe even Staten Island, before we think about a new route on 3rd Ave. 

Edited July 27, 2021 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Amiri the subway guy]

16 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

The key word there is “if.” Not “all.”

And a rebuilt 3rd Ave el definitely ain’t gonna happen.

Agreed. I’d much rather the MTA prioritize a full length SAS, complete with extensions to The Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens, maybe even Staten Island, before we think about a new route on 3rd Ave. 

could 3rd Ave be underground 

[ActiveCity]

We can build one new trunk line at 10th Avenue, Madison Avenue, or 3rd Avenue in Manhattan, so we've got to choose wisely.

[Vulturious]

1 hour ago, ActiveCity said:

We can build one new trunk line at 10th Avenue, Madison Avenue, or 3rd Avenue in Manhattan, so we've got to choose wisely.

Personally, we don't really need a 3rd Av line in Manhattan. While this would allow for better transfers to other lines in Manhattan such as almost all of Lexington Av line, Lexington Av-59 St for the , Lexington Av-53 St for the , 3rd Av for the , and basically connects to SAS from Bowery, I personally would rather have another line built somewhere else. 10 Av is probably the better line to build. The west side of Manhattan, especially in midtown, is void of subway service and the closest subway line is 8 Av.

[Theli11]

7 hours ago, Vulturious said:

Personally, we don't really need a 3rd Av line in Manhattan. While this would allow for better transfers to other lines in Manhattan such as almost all of Lexington Av line, Lexington Av-59 St for the , Lexington Av-53 St for the , 3rd Av for the , and basically connects to SAS from Bowery, I personally would rather have another line built somewhere else. 10 Av is probably the better line to build. The west side of Manhattan, especially in midtown, is void of subway service and the closest subway line is 8 Av.

I wanna say yes and no to it. I agree that out of the options given I'd opt for 10th Avenue instead of a 3rd and 2nd Avenue subway. It's also because extending the train isn't too much of a hassle past Chelsea Piers and won't have to go far (ending at 72 St since you don't need extra west side service in the UWS.)  Past that, I've been thinking about the advantages and disadvantages between a First, Second and Third Avenue subway below 72 St - 2nd. 

First Avenue makes it easier for people in Alphabet City, and York Avenue to get a train, however, it distances itself from any transfers and is two avenues too far to be a sustainable substitute for the Lexington Avenue Line. The heart of the transfers would come from downtown.. the at 14th (First Avenue Station), The at Houston, and here it's a weird gap where it'll be outside the area for a transfer at either Bowery, Grand St or Delancey - Essex. *Of course, you could connect the to the old Nassau tracks for a connect to both but you can do that for any of the routes. You'd also be creating a turn at around 57th St, which will slow the down

Second Avenue (Current Plan) makes it a fast ride for everyone, it hits more transfers at 14th (Third Avenue Station),  at Houston, and at Grand (and hopefully we can build a complex with to connect the and at Bowery).. But still has long ones like the   at 55th St and the at Grand Central (though it's the same size as 8th Avenue's, it'll still be two block to reach the and Shuttle It has less turning and will make the train more reliable. 

Third Avenue makes better transfers all around. the and trains all have an entrance that'd place it next to the train, the train connect to the at Astor Pl and the connect to the  at Bowery. However, the will miss the train since it's right in between 2nd Av and Lafayette. You could make a way for Northbound trains to have a passageway along Houston St but it'll probably be the longest transfer. Below that this Third Avenue line will generally be identical with the Second Avenue line except for the fact that the  don't connect but you can always build that complex.. it'll just be long without a train in between it. 


Personally, I like both Second Avenue and Third Avenue options, and I think a separate Alphabet City option should be looked into. 
*I prefer Hanover Square over taking over Nassau because, Nassau is hard enough to convert, and trains need to handle as many passengers as possible. However, that connection is important if you want the train to get onto Fulton St or 4th Av.. 
I'm also not sure about connecting the  to Downtown Manhattan if we plan for it to go into Downtown Brooklyn. a  and/or  transfer should be enough for now but a transfer with   trains from the Bronx and Downtown Brooklyn would be another useful alternative. Making it a full Lexington Av substitute. 

Sorry if this seems jumbled but it's also 2 am.. 

[mrsman]

^^^^^

Thank you for that analysis.  It would seem based on the above, 2nd Ave would be the most  balanced choice.  Close transfers to  ,  ,   are expected.  A long transfer to  and  are also possible, and those are within the range of existing long transfers like PABT-Times Square.  I guess, while I have not seen official plans for such, transfers to Bowery  and Fulton St Manhattan are also about the same length as TS-PABT and should also be constructed.

While I prefer a tie in to Nassau, if the Hanover Square routing can provide a transfer passageway of reasonable distance to Fulton St Manhattan, then it would seem like the lower SAS (below 59th) would be reasonably connected with the rest of the system, even without direct Brooklyn service.

Brooklyn passengers on  can transfer to the East Side SAS at Fulton, (one of) the first Manhattan station these trains hit.  Similar with  (and  ) at Grand and  at 2nd Ave.  The only Brooklyn trains that will not have a direct transfer to SAS in Lower Manhattan are  ,  ,  ,  .

The Upper East Side  SAS passengers would have a lot of connections if they take Q.  If they take T, they will have transfers to EM4567S as mentioned above.  Given the layout of Midtown, all of Midtown is reachable if you have access or transfer to 2nd Ave, Park Ave, 6th Ave, and 8th Ave and th  basically will provide that -- a transfer to 456 to reach areas south of 42nd, a transfer to EM to reach 53rd and south on th 6th and 8th lines.

Queens passengers coming in on  or the 53rd st tunnel will have a connection to .  Those coming in on the 60th or 63rd tunnels will not, unless there is a direct train connection from 63rd to SAS.

One way of improving Queens coonections to SAS would be as follows:

EF as QBL locals* to the 53rd street tunnel.  E to 8th Ave local to WTC.  F to 6th Ave local to Culver.

M trains will terminate at 57th/6th and will no longer service Queens.

RW trains willl be Broadway locals and will use the 60th street tunnel to Astoria. [The W desingation may no longer be necessary.]

N, Q, T, and V trains will all run through the 2nd/63rd junction in different patterns:

N QBL express - 63rd tunnel - straight through 63rd - Broadway express

Q Upper 2nd Ave - turn - 63rd - Broadway express

T Upper 2nd Ave- straight through 2nd Ave - SAS

V QBL express - 63rd tunnel - turn - SAS

Operationally, the above should be similar to the current Gold Street interlocking.  N and T operate without interfering with each other and so do Q and V.  QT north, NV east, QN west, TV south. [Correspondingly, B and N operate without interfering with each other and so do D and Q.  BD Bridge N, QN Bridge S, BQ Brighton, DN 4th Ave.]

 

* Of course EF can be QBL express and NV QBL locals, but that would cut off direct QBL local access to LIC.  But if V were local, V passengers could transfer at 53rd to EF to go back into LIC.  It's roundabout, but it's possible.