Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[Theli11]

36 minutes ago, Amiri the subway guy said:

Question why does it matter if the SAS has multiple transfers. There are a lot of benefit with running the SAS via Williamburg. For starter it could reduce crowding on the L train   It’s doesn’t forces a transfer at 34th street herald square. And it keeps the J/Z route on Williamburg. Just saying

Three Separate things: 

The middle ground here would be SAS through Williamsburg and then down Utica to catch the . This way there's more transfers and more areas served. You could have the SAS run via the current Jamaica El until Crescent St and make a new Jamaica Av El but that's a whole different discussion.

Also none of this forces a transfer at 34th Harold Square since Broadway and 6th Avenue are always within 2 Avenues of each other (at 14th St and 8th/West 4th Sts) Both Canal and Grand St serve Chinatown and you can just transfer to the  at Canal.

Though the could reduce crowding on the a bit more since they have more transfers between Houston and 34th St, though those who actually want 14th St would be forced to transfer at some point.

[Vulturious]

1 hour ago, Amiri the subway guy said:

Question why does it matter if the SAS has multiple transfers. There are a lot of benefit with running the SAS via Williamburg. For starter it could reduce crowding on the L train   It’s doesn’t forces a transfer at 34th street herald square. And it keeps the J/Z route on Williamburg. Just saying

The reason why it matters that the SAS has multiple transfers is so other trains can help back it up if something happens. Say for example Broadway or 7 Av goes down, both lines have nearby stations and other lines that can help back it up and be used as an alternative. 

As for SAS running along Williamsburg, there are indeed a lot of benefits to come with this, however, an SAS line would need to replace one line which would either be the / or . No more than 2 lines can run through Williamsburg Bridge at a time, the  is just the  skipping some stops so it doesn't really count as a 3rd line. If an SAS line were to run through Williamsburg, most likely what'll happen is the  get replaced since there is a lot of demand for uptown service, while keeping an SAS service taking over Nassau. Reason is because the  is still needed along 6 Av as well as QBL to help supplement the  which is usually a hit or miss.

[Amiri the subway guy]

2 hours ago, Vulturious said:

The reason why it matters that the SAS has multiple transfers is so other trains can help back it up if something happens. Say for example Broadway or 7 Av goes down, both lines have nearby stations and other lines that can help back it up and be used as an alternative. 

As for SAS running along Williamsburg, there are indeed a lot of benefits to come with this, however, an SAS line would need to replace one line which would either be the / or . No more than 2 lines can run through Williamsburg Bridge at a time, the  is just the  skipping some stops so it doesn't really count as a 3rd line. If an SAS line were to run through Williamsburg, most likely what'll happen is the  get replaced since there is a lot of demand for uptown service, while keeping an SAS service taking over Nassau. Reason is because the  is still needed along 6 Av as well as QBL to help supplement the  which is usually a hit or miss.

Well I know I posted this elsewhere but these are what I feel the routes should look like I based off of a fanast 2nd Avenue map I created https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-8-fCWiQ1wWcSDvaELtA98yi9ytv5WLZPH-Hn9lqV6A/edit https://metrodreamin.com/view/ejJSdkwzOHltdVZjWldyVjBLY05WQ1BJMW9qMXww

[Wallyhorse]

On 9/7/2021 at 8:17 PM, Theli11 said:

Though the could reduce crowding on the a bit more since they have more transfers between Houston and 34th St, though those who actually want 14th St would be forced to transfer at some point.

Though they could build a new 14th street station in the express tunnel (there are provisions for this) to accomodate that.

As for an SAS/Williamsburg connection, you could have the  turn teal and run on the SAS with the return of the  from 2nd Avenue-71st and Continental.  Another option is to rebuild Essex Street into five tracks, including two terminal tracks and set it up so the  runs on the SAS (with the  becoming a bi-direction rush hour train running its current route but non-skip stop), the runs as it does now and the  turns brown and runs from 95th-Essex (with yard runs to Broadway Junction that are in service) at all times and late nights replaces the  between Essex and Metropolitan Avenue.  As part of such, all stations along Nassau and Broadway-Brooklyn to Metropolitan and at least Broadway Junction are extended to 600 feet.

[engineerboy6561]

On 9/14/2021 at 10:05 AM, Wallyhorse said:

Though they could build a new 14th street station in the express tunnel (there are provisions for this) to accomodate that.

As for an SAS/Williamsburg connection, you could have the  turn teal and run on the SAS with the return of the  from 2nd Avenue-71st and Continental.  Another option is to rebuild Essex Street into five tracks, including two terminal tracks and set it up so the  runs on the SAS (with the  becoming a bi-direction rush hour train running its current route but non-skip stop), the runs as it does now and the  turns brown and runs from 95th-Essex (with yard runs to Broadway Junction that are in service) at all times and late nights replaces the  between Essex and Metropolitan Avenue.  As part of such, all stations along Nassau and Broadway-Brooklyn to Metropolitan and at least Broadway Junction are extended to 600 feet.

A teal  is roughly what I proposed as well; I basically think the longer-term plan should be to replace the Jamaica el with a modern four-track trunk, and add four-track trunks along 3 Av in the Bronx and Northern Blvd in Queens in an effort to relieve almost all the heavily congested lines in the system (the  in the Bronx, the Lex in Manhattan, QBL expresses and the  in Queens) and clean up DeKalb a bit by pulling the  off of it; the map is at https://metrodreamin.com/view/ZWUxVVR2d2tYZ2d3NnprYkFybTBoU1k2NWkzM3ww and the detailed explanation of all the things I did and why I did them is here: 

The benefits of this approach are redundancy (the 2 Av lines are connected to the Broadway BMT, and the 6 Av and 8 Av IND lines in Brooklyn and Manhattan,  and the Queens Blvd lines in Queens) and good relief of most of the subway system's congestion pain points that I could find.

Edited September 17, 2021 by engineerboy6561

[Wallyhorse]

Now that Gov. Hochul has ditched the LGA Air Train:

I suspect what should be done is instead of the AirTrain would be a portion of what perhaps would be "Phase 2A" of the SAS that can be the LGA branch, turning off from the main route at 116th Street (116th Street Station on 2nd Avenue can be just north of 116th to 119th Street to allow for this) and making a stop on 116th Street either from 1st-2nd Avenue (possibly with a transfer point between the two stations) or if it's deep enough between 1st and Pleasant Avenue (there actually is a major shopping center next to the FDR Drive from 116th-117th Streets whose patrons in many cases would use such a stop if it had an entrance at Pleasant Avenue), then continuing underground to Roosevelt Island with a stop at Ichan Stadium and a second stop on Roosevelt Island before going elevated to Queens and through mostly non-residential areas of northern Queens to LGA, stopping first at the long-term parking facility and then at the various terminals.

[Wallyhorse]

11 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Now that Gov. Hochul has ditched the LGA Air Train:

I suspect what should be done is instead of the AirTrain would be a portion of what perhaps would be "Phase 2A" of the SAS that can be the LGA branch, turning off from the main route at 116th Street (116th Street Station on 2nd Avenue can be just north of 116th to 119th Street to allow for this) and making a stop on 116th Street either from 1st-2nd Avenue (possibly with a transfer point between the two stations) or if it's deep enough between 1st and Pleasant Avenue (there actually is a major shopping center next to the FDR Drive from 116th-117th Streets whose patrons in many cases would use such a stop if it had an entrance at Pleasant Avenue), then continuing underground to Roosevelt Island with a stop at Ichan Stadium and a second stop on Roosevelt Island before going elevated to Queens and through mostly non-residential areas of northern Queens to LGA, stopping first at the long-term parking facility and then at the various terminals.

Obviously I meant Randalls Island on this. 

[bobtehpanda]

On 10/5/2021 at 11:19 PM, Wallyhorse said:

Now that Gov. Hochul has ditched the LGA Air Train:

I suspect what should be done is instead of the AirTrain would be a portion of what perhaps would be "Phase 2A" of the SAS that can be the LGA branch, turning off from the main route at 116th Street (116th Street Station on 2nd Avenue can be just north of 116th to 119th Street to allow for this) and making a stop on 116th Street either from 1st-2nd Avenue (possibly with a transfer point between the two stations) or if it's deep enough between 1st and Pleasant Avenue (there actually is a major shopping center next to the FDR Drive from 116th-117th Streets whose patrons in many cases would use such a stop if it had an entrance at Pleasant Avenue), then continuing underground to Roosevelt Island with a stop at Ichan Stadium and a second stop on Roosevelt Island before going elevated to Queens and through mostly non-residential areas of northern Queens to LGA, stopping first at the long-term parking facility and then at the various terminals.

This is unnecessarily long. Just hook out from 79 or 86 (which is actually straight due west of Astoria Blvd) and call it a day. (But also realistically not happening.) Why make a hook north and then south?

[Wallyhorse]

3 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

This is unnecessarily long. Just hook out from 79 or 86 (which is actually straight due west of Astoria Blvd) and call it a day. (But also realistically not happening.) Why make a hook north and then south?

That little thing called Astoria NIMBYs.

[BreeddekalbL]

On 10/10/2021 at 7:43 PM, Wallyhorse said:

That little thing called Astoria NIMBYs.

maybe a new generation might be pro transit

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Not to mention that a 79th St/Astoria Blvd route would be mostly, if not entirely, underground. Any case a NIMBY could make about “unsightly elevated trains” would go right out the window. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by T to Dyre Avenue

[R10 2952]

I was thinking the other day about how the MTA's tunneling costs are so out of control, and how full elevated line construction over residential areas is a political non-starter in NYC, which leads me to the question: has the MTA produced any in-depth studies at what the Bronx extension of SAS would look like? Specifically, was the NYW&B right-of-way north and south of East 180th ever looked at as a potential route for a Second Avenue extension?

I was looking at a map and came around to the notion that the path of least resistance for a Bronx extension would simply be an el connecting the Eastchester Line south from 180th, over the New Haven railroad tracks (similar to how the Culver El ran above SBK freight tracks), to the Pelham Line north of Whitlock Avenue.  That would limit tunneling to an SAS Phase 2 connection from Third-138th under the Harlem River to Second Avenue in Manhattan.  The Pelham Line west of Elder Avenue could then be extended six blocks west and tied into the /.

5 goes to 241st or 238th, T goes to Dyre, 6 runs along Westchester all the way to 149th-Grand Concourse.

Perhaps a case could even be made for a short trunk line branching off and running along the old Port Morris right-of-way?

Sure, it's all just a pipe dream, but even so, I think it's no more hare-brained than MTA Capital Construction's budget-busting, deep-bore tunneling projects... 

 

 

 

[Trainmaster5]

On 10/20/2021 at 7:13 PM, R10 2952 said:

I was thinking the other day about how the MTA's tunneling costs are so out of control, and how full elevated line construction over residential areas is a political non-starter in NYC, which leads me to the question: has the MTA produced any in-depth studies at what the Bronx extension of SAS would look like? Specifically, was the NYW&B right-of-way north and south of East 180th ever looked at as a potential route for a Second Avenue extension?

I was looking at a map and came around to the notion that the path of least resistance for a Bronx extension would simply be an el connecting the Eastchester Line south from 180th, over the New Haven railroad tracks (similar to how the Culver El ran above SBK freight tracks), to the Pelham Line north of Whitlock Avenue.  That would limit tunneling to an SAS Phase 2 connection from Third-138th under the Harlem River to Second Avenue in Manhattan.  The Pelham Line west of Elder Avenue could then be extended six blocks west and tied into the /.

5 goes to 241st or 238th, T goes to Dyre, 6 runs along Westchester all the way to 149th-Grand Concourse.

Perhaps a case could even be made for a short trunk line branching off and running along the old Port Morris right-of-way?

Sure, it's all just a pipe dream, but even so, I think it's no more hare-brained than MTA Capital Construction's budget-busting, deep-bore tunneling projects... 

 

 

 

I could see the original ROW of the NYW&B running down to a point where a connection could possibly be made to the SAS. The problem (s) are on the Bronx side of the idea, IMO. First of all today's line would have to revert back to the IND. SAS is B division equipment so the R142 cars on the would have to go elsewhere. I doubt that any part of the line needs twice as much service and equipment. The ROW of the Dyre line north of East 180th St was built for wider equipment. South of East 180th St the ROW doesn't exist any more. The stub tracks and ironwork are gone. Like the Culver Shuttle I believe the old ROW has been sold in that vicinity. I've wondered if the old ROW below Unionport Station could have been re-connected to the railroad line. That used to be the way subway equipment was swapped with the old Dyre shuttle. Of course that brings up the question of how to run subway equipment with/ alongside commuter rail. Your post brings up some things that I don't recall being discussed by the transportation folks in charge, either today or in the past. Great post. Carry on.

[GojiMet86]

They put up apartments in that stretch, so it would very hard, unless an alignment and station underground under a different street is chosen.

[bobtehpanda]

3 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

I was thinking the other day about how the MTA's tunneling costs are so out of control, and how full elevated line construction over residential areas is a political non-starter in NYC, which leads me to the question: has the MTA produced any in-depth studies at what the Bronx extension of SAS would look like? Specifically, was the NYW&B right-of-way north and south of East 180th ever looked at as a potential route for a Second Avenue extension?

I was looking at a map and came around to the notion that the path of least resistance for a Bronx extension would simply be an el connecting the Eastchester Line south from 180th, over the New Haven railroad tracks (similar to how the Culver El ran above SBK freight tracks), to the Pelham Line north of Whitlock Avenue.  That would limit tunneling to an SAS Phase 2 connection from Third-138th under the Harlem River to Second Avenue in Manhattan.  The Pelham Line west of Elder Avenue could then be extended six blocks west and tied into the /.

5 goes to 241st or 238th, T goes to Dyre, 6 runs along Westchester all the way to 149th-Grand Concourse.

Perhaps a case could even be made for a short trunk line branching off and running along the old Port Morris right-of-way?

Sure, it's all just a pipe dream, but even so, I think it's no more hare-brained than MTA Capital Construction's budget-busting, deep-bore tunneling projects... 

I would imagine that the plan to go up the Harlem Line would still be the plan.

[ActiveCity]

The 125th St spur is just wasteful. Just take the M60.

[Theli11]

On 11/11/2021 at 6:50 PM, ActiveCity said:

The 125th St spur is just wasteful. Just take the M60.

The shuttle is just wasteful, just take the . /s

[R10 2952]

The entire 125th Street section to connect with Metro-North is an unnecessary spur that was forced on the MTA by the suburban Westchester members of the Board.

The original plan for the Second Avenue Subway was always to go north into the Bronx, not west along 125th. 

[Trainmaster5]

7 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

The entire 125th Street section to connect with Metro-North is an unnecessary spur that was forced on the MTA by the suburban Westchester members of the Board.

The original plan for the Second Avenue Subway was always to go north into the Bronx, not west along 125th. 

I’ve been trying to point this out to the forum for years. If the business locations are Midtown East or West the quickest route is south from 125th to Grand Central. What happened instead is a sop, a useless bone, thrown into the project without any real justification. I’m guessing that only a few people think this idea was worthwhile. As one of my mentors called some fellow posters years ago “ your little Lionel’s” because they didn’t live in the real world according to him. A man known throughout the subway system as “ TA” . An Insider respected by everyone. Just my opinion. Carry on.

[R10 2952]

1 hour ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I’ve been trying to point this out to the forum for years. If the business locations are Midtown East or West the quickest route is south from 125th to Grand Central. What happened instead is a sop, a useless bone, thrown into the project without any real justification. I’m guessing that only a few people think this idea was worthwhile. As one of my mentors called some fellow posters years ago “ your little Lionel’s” because they didn’t live in the real world according to him. A man known throughout the subway system as “ TA” . An Insider respected by everyone. Just my opinion. Carry on.

Yes, I just pointed the real-life aspect out in another thread today about the whole deinterlining fixation some of them have.  They got defensive 😆  "Lionel" is an accurate term for it, very much so.

If they took the time to scratch the surface, peel away the layers of the onion, they'd have a moment of reckoning and realize how backwards, corrupt and non-changing the public transportation state of affairs really is, not just in NY or the Northeast, but the US in general.  The fact that most small towns in America were better-connected by rail 60 or 70 years ago than they are today, speaks volumes.

At this point, the only way I think I'll ever see better transit is by moving.  To Europe.

[GojiMet86]

9 minutes ago, R10 2952 said:

Yes, I just pointed the real-life aspect out in another thread today about the whole deinterlining fixation some of them have.  They got defensive 😆  "Lionel" is an accurate term for it, very much so.

If they took the time to scratch the surface, peel away the layers of the onion, they'd have a moment of reckoning and realize how backwards, corrupt and non-changing the public transportation state of affairs really is, not just in NY or the Northeast, but the US in general.  The fact that most small towns in America were better-connected by rail 60 or 70 years ago than they are today, speaks volumes.

At this point, the only way I think I'll ever see better transit is by moving.  To Europe.

 

You do know that in Europe, almost all metro systems are deinterlined, right?

Just pointing out the real-life aspects.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 11/12/2021 at 1:33 PM, R10 2952 said:

The entire 125th Street section to connect with Metro-North is an unnecessary spur that was forced on the MTA by the suburban Westchester members of the Board.

The original plan for the Second Avenue Subway was always to go north into the Bronx, not west along 125th. 

 

On 11/12/2021 at 9:08 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

I’ve been trying to point this out to the forum for years. If the business locations are Midtown East or West the quickest route is south from 125th to Grand Central. What happened instead is a sop, a useless bone, thrown into the project without any real justification. I’m guessing that only a few people think this idea was worthwhile. As one of my mentors called some fellow posters years ago “ your little Lionel’s” because they didn’t live in the real world according to him. A man known throughout the subway system as “ TA” . An Insider respected by everyone. Just my opinion. Carry on.

In fairness, I think most posters on this forum do want the 2nd Ave Subway to go north to The Bronx instead of west along 125. Myself included. The MTA bigwigs, for the most part, are the ones who wanted it to go to 125/Lex. They wanted to leave in provisions to go north, but defer going north to “sometime down the road.” I’m sure they know that the quickest route from East Harlem to Midtown East and West is south, yet the MTA decision makers are the ones who seem to believe that the transfer at 125 somehow will be good enough to pull substantial riders off the and Metro North. And for less money than tunneling to The Bronx. Or so they say, because that deep-tunnel platform they want to build at Lex - not to mention the tail tracks that extend almost to Lenox Ave without a connection to the - are causing SAS Phase 2 to cost way more than Phase 1 did. This, in spite of how Phase 2 has substantial existing tunnels dug in the 1970s, while Phase 1 was built entirely from scratch. Sounds to me like the MTA’s bigwigs are the ones who are playing with their “little Lionels.” Point it out to the MTA, because they made the decision to go to Lex/125 and add super-long tail tracks that go halfway across Harlem. For less value, not more. 

On 11/12/2021 at 10:35 PM, R10 2952 said:

Yes, I just pointed the real-life aspect out in another thread today about the whole deinterlining fixation some of them have.  They got defensive 😆  "Lionel" is an accurate term for it, very much so.

If they took the time to scratch the surface, peel away the layers of the onion, they'd have a moment of reckoning and realize how backwards, corrupt and non-changing the public transportation state of affairs really is, not just in NY or the Northeast, but the US in general.  The fact that most small towns in America were better-connected by rail 60 or 70 years ago than they are today, speaks volumes.

At this point, the only way I think I'll ever see better transit is by moving.  To Europe.

Then you’re going to be disappointed. Because London’s subsurface Underground lines and Amsterdam’s metro are the only European examples of interlined subways I can think of right off the top of my head. Nearly every multi-line subway/metro system in Europe has self-contained lines with few, if any, track connections between the lines. Surface rail systems, i.e., trams, are a different story.

And to be honest here, “Lionel” is an accurate term for all the crazy proposals we’ve had over the years in the Proposals thread that call for more interlining and one-seat rides, not less. “Deinterlining” is the opposite of all those crazy proposals.

[mrsman]

THe current plans for 125th street will not significantly pull riders from 456 or Metro-North to be worth its while.  I agree.  But I do beleive there is some value to having a 125th street crosstown that hopefully extends to St Nicholas or even Broadway.  If the bend at 125th is a first step towards that, then it is valuable.  A routing like this can provide a one-transfer access between the Upper East Side and all of the Bronx that isn't served by 4,5,6

But I also agree that there is far more worth in continuing north into the Bronx.  Ideally, SAS will split between Bronx and 125th.  IMO, A Bronx extension does the most good if it takes over the routing of the 3rd Ave el.  It will have transfer opportunities to , , and .  I would like to see a 3rd Ave routing contiune until at least Fordham, for access to Metro North and Fordham University.  At that point, perhaps the subway can travel east and then tie in to the Dyre Ave line.  Whether such a service can pull off passengers from 4,5,6 is somewhat speculative, but at least a routing like this will have enough of its own ridership to be justified.

 

[Lex]

On 11/15/2021 at 12:08 PM, mrsman said:

THe current plans for 125th street will not significantly pull riders from 456 or Metro-North to be worth its while.  I agree.  But I do beleive there is some value to having a 125th street crosstown that hopefully extends to St Nicholas or even Broadway.  If the bend at 125th is a first step towards that, then it is valuable.  A routing like this can provide a one-transfer access between the Upper East Side and all of the Bronx that isn't served by 4,5,6

But I also agree that there is far more worth in continuing north into the Bronx.  Ideally, SAS will split between Bronx and 125th.  IMO, A Bronx extension does the most good if it takes over the routing of the 3rd Ave el.  It will have transfer opportunities to , , and .  I would like to see a 3rd Ave routing contiune until at least Fordham, for access to Metro North and Fordham University.  At that point, perhaps the subway can travel east and then tie in to the Dyre Ave line.  Whether such a service can pull off passengers from 4,5,6 is somewhat speculative, but at least a routing like this will have enough of its own ridership to be justified.

 

At that angle, I wouldn't bother trying to tie the two together.

[Amiri the subway guy]

New proposal 

In Harlem a new 125th Street Crosstown Subway line would be build with transfer to the 1/2/3/4/5/6/A/C/B/D. The T train would be sent there this gives People on West Harlem easier access to the East Side of Manhattan taking pressure off the 7/L trains. 

As for the Bronx the most popular proposal is to rebuild the 3rd Avenue line so I split it up into multiple phases in order to better manage the costs phase 1 would be to build a new tunnel in the Harlem river and extending the Q train to 3rd Avenue 149th street. Phase 2 would be to extend the Q to Fordham Plaza. And phase 3 would be to extend the Q to Gun Hill Road. A optional phase 4 to Co Op City should be studied too.  This would balance out west and east side TPH. And maybe even reduce crowding on the 2 train since now people would have a another option of getting to the West side of Manhattan. The 3rd Avenue line would have three tracks to allow for a peak way express and creation of a new <Q>Express Train. The express stops would be Co Op city, Gun Hill Road, Fordham Plaza, Tremont Avenue, 3rd Avenue 149th street, and 3rd Avenue 138th street. 

 

Now usually it’s the T via Bronx and Q via Harlem y’all used to but the reasoning for it is that currently they is 50 trains during rush hours heading to east midtown the 4/5/6 trains vs 25/30 trains heading to west midtown the 2/D. The 1 is further west away from the rest of the Bronx line and only three stations so technically we could exclude it in this scenario. The B is a rush hour only extension and runs on the same route as the D so it doesn’t really count as it’s own Individual line. Add the Q train would balance the ridership access out. And Broadway is a much more attractive line to be extended to the Bronx since it stops at a bunch of major transfer points in midtown ETC (Times Square Herald Square Union Square).

And sending the T to 125th street crosstown would give the people on Harlem easier access to the east side of Manhattan reducing crowding on the 7/L trains.

And people are saying that the Q train might be too long while I agree with this at first. Realistic that argument is moot cause I believe we overestimated the length cause let’s be honest the Q train won’t be anywhere near as long as the A or F trains. It would be around the same length as the B train. In fact my proposed K train route would be longer than the Q train

My estimate on the Q train length.

Longer than the N train, Shorter than the D train.

On queens a new 4 track Northern Blvd subway line would be build two new new 2nd Avenue lines will be created these are both currently defunct services the K and V trains. 
 

The K train would start off at Springfield blvd then it will meet up with the V train at Utopia Parkway  the V train would run local while the K train would run express. The local only stations are 

164th Street

Kissena Blvd 

Main Street Elder Avenue 

College Point Blvd

108th Street

100th Street

85th Street

78th Street

Local and Express stops 

Utopia Parkway

Willets Points Blvd (transfers to flushing line)

Junction Blvd

Broadway Northern Blvd (transfers to queens blvd line)

Both trains are based out of Sunnyside Yard 

The K train would branch off Broadway stoping at 
 

31st Street (transfer to Astoria line)

21st Street 

Then a lower level at 72nd Street 2nd Avenue would be made then the K train rises up at 42nd street as the express service. 
 

The V train 

would branch using the existing 63rd street tunnel than connects to 55th Street running local with the T train.

The reasoning why I propose Northern Blvd/2nd Ave express trains using the 63rd St tunnel. Is that It would allow would allow riders coming from 6th Ave, Queens blvd, Hillside the chance to easily transfer to the 2nd Ave Subway.

2nd Avenue would be expanded to 4 tracks the K train would extend to a new Williamburg Utica Avenue  line first it would stop at Clinton Street and Bedford Avenue 

The proposed Utica Avenue line would include 8th Avenue and 2nd Avenue services

The E train would also be extended to Williamsburg using the Worth Street provisions with the stations at Worth Street Chambers Street, Chatham Square, East Broadway and finally Montgomery Street. The Benefits are that it opens up new transfer options for riders in lower Manhattan. World Trade Center terminal will continue to get service but during rush hours only. The World Trade Center would be used to terminate extra C/E train during rush hours if their isn’t capacity on the Brooklyn routes when CBTC is Installed on the 8th Avenue, Fulton street, and the proposed Williamsburg lines. So a total of 8-10 rush hour trains would terminate there 4-5 rush hour C/E trains each would be sent there. But that might limit capacity on the Fulton street and the proposed Williamsburg lines. At all other times WTC is closed so you have to take the E to canal street for an A or C train I mean the Chambers street and World Trade Center are literally the same station complex so shutting it down shouldn’t be too much of a problem, however it does have a ridership count so some people might not like the sound of being forced to transfer at Canal Street for a A/C train. The World Trade Center would still be used for emergencies or G.O work.

 

The E train will also make one stop at Bedford Avenue before meeting up with the K train at Havemeyer street 

 

This route would run south 3rd street and Utica Avenue it would be a 4 track line the E train is the local and the K train is the express. 

 

Local exclusive stops 

Flushing Avenue

Lafayette Avenue 

Halsey Street 

Prospect Place

Empire Blvd

Church Avenue 

Avenue D

Flatlands Avenue 

Avenue N

 

All local and express stops

Havemeyer Street 

Broadway South 4th street

Myrtle Avenue 

Utica Avenue Fulton Street

Crown Heights Utica Avenue 

Kings Highway 

Flatlands Avenue 

Avenue N

Kings Plaza Utica Avenue 

 

This proposed south 3rd street and Utica Avenue line would help balance the load of new commuters from Williamsburg, Bushwick and Bed-Stuy which currently use the L or M to get to Midtown or take the J to get to Lower Manhattan. The J train and the BMT Centre St Subway in general suffer from being built when everyone from northern Brooklyn were headed to lower Manhattan and the Financial District. Today commuting patterns have changed that now both lower Manhattan and midtown are popular designations but the high cost of new infrastructure has hampered the ability to make needed service changes. The new Williamburg line that would be served by the E and K trains would give communters more alternatives for folks in Williamburg other than having to use the congested J/Z M and L trains. And it’s would be very attractive as it offers both west side and east side access to Manhattan. 
 

Phase 4 would be build too
Hanover Square would be expanded to 4 tracks the inner tracks used for terminating trains the outer tracks used for Brooklyn service. Both the T and V trains would be extend to Fulton street local using the Court Street transit museum link. T/V meets up with the A/C at Hoyt Street the C train would be moved to the Express tracks with the A train on Broadway junction the T train would branch off to recapture the Atlantic Avenue branch and run up to Jamaica Center. The V train would continue to Euclid Avenue. The C train would be extended to Lefferts Blvd. All A trains can than be diverted to Far Rockway and Rockway Park. During Evenings/Weekends the V train would only run up to Hanover Square the C train runs local only up to Euclid Avenue. The A train also goes to Lefferts Blvd during these hours. Rockway shuttle also operates weekends and late nights. During late nights V train won’t operate at all the K train operates local in its place. Lefferts shuttle still operates during late nights.

I gotta admit this will cost FAR MORE than the current proposed second ave subway but what I trying to say is that the current plan only helps people in the east side of Manhattan travel a bit better. It does practically NOTHING for riders from The Bronx Queens or Brooklyn. I mean the biggest flaw is that there no express tracks HECK they isn’t even a third track that could be used for emergencies. Meaning that if something goes wrong at one station THE ENTIRE LINE is screwed up. I mean at least make room for the express for when ridership increases they can be build easily. The current transfers to 2nd Av require riders to use multiple stairs long corridors and transfer to multiple train routes all because planners are either too scared or don’t want to even bother design their projects to full potential. If the 2nd Ave Subway is not designed properly then it will be one of if not the most expensive mistake the MTA makes. The NYC Subway has a long history of poor planning mistakes which have limited service ever since; 2nd ave subway is the PERFECT  opportunity to redeem ourselves. 

 I’m concerned about the cost of course. But government please fund the mta. The government really needs to invest more money to the MTA.

The 2nd Ave subway is a subway line needed to not just relieve congestion along the east side of Manhattan Lexington Ave subway but also many other subways that service the entire city. My main concern about the 2nd ave proposal is that MTA will try and build the cheapest subway it can which the MTA will regret DEARLY when the population grows. The ideal for some 2nd Ave subway proposal is that it adds capacity ( 2nd ave line should be incorporated into existing lines so that existing trains could be used for improved service elsewhere)

The community and the MTA should also work together to find a solution that works out best. Costs must be brought under control cost should not be an excuse to build a less effective subway line. Transit should be built where it’s most effective not where it’s cheapest to build. 

I’ll make a map on this plan later please give feedback